Daughter feels betrayed

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Redwingfan9

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I'll share my wife's thoughts on this situation. She made the argument that victims don't get veto power over who their friends and family are allowed to converse with. The daughter could reasonably ask her mother to not talk to her about conversations with the uncle and she could reasonably request they not talk about her. Otherwise she doesn't get veto power over who her mother speaks with.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Your post led me to look up the Greek use of the word "forgiveness." It appears forgiveness back then was not the emotion laden thing we in our culture think of it as being so it seems you made some good points. One way or another though there is another word we are told about: Mercy.

From my quick study on this word it seems that mercy, translated from the Greek, means what we think it means: compassion when it is unmerited.

We are told to show mercy to others.

I think to be on the safe side we need not to be harboring hate in our hearts. Studies have shown that is bad for our physical health and I definitely think it is bad for our spiritual health. There is nothing to be gained if the daughter hates her perpetrator. There just isn't.

The OP said she felt the Lord was prompting her to communicate with her brother. Who are we to say she was right or wrong? We are told "If today you hear His voice, do not harden your heart." His ways are infinitely higher than our ways.

How to show mercy? Each case must be led of the Lord.

There may or may not be other people, professionals, who are better equipped to help the brother. Who of them can replace the need to be loved by family? And actually I think the studies show it is unlikely those professionals can help such a person anyway. Only the Lord can. Can any number of counseling sessions change someone who is a narcissist or sociopath or psychopath? No. Research indicates that such syndromes are correlated to problems in the cortex of the brain, per scans.

Can the professionals heal any inner damage that the perpetrator may have had that has contributed to his/her sickness? No. Can they lose the chains the devil has wrapped around any of them? No way.

Only the Lord can save them. He is love. We are told to love our enemies. If there is anything we can do for such people, perhaps it is just to show the love of the Father Who, again, alone can save them. Of course this doesn't mean trusting them one bit. It doesn't mean discounting the harm they have done one bit. It doesn't mean that our primary focus, and attempts to comfort, shouldn't be to the victims. It just means we can show mercy and love as our Heavenly Father has shown to us, and as He guides us to do so.

I whole heartedly agree that only God can work a miracle of redemption in the heart of any sinner and some people have a further path out of the cess pit than others. I also agree / know, most sex offenders don't "recover". Not that God can't work a miracle in someone that's fallen that far off the wagon. Statistically speaking though; the recidivism rate is like 85%.

And I also agree that a victim has to turn over to God the pain that they are in. Carrying a lot of anger and rage is not psychologically good. I agree there. And also in the case of the victim; God is also the only One who can truly fix that.

As far as spiritually? Why do you think we get angry in the first place? We get angry at school shootings, terrorist attacks, racism, genocide; all sorts of injustice. Why do you suppose that is? We can point to several examples in the Scriptures where Jesus got obviously visibly angry. Why do you suppose that was?

Well, here's the answer. We know the wrath of God will one day fall upon the wicked. Anyone who's honest about what they read in Scripture knows that's coming. The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness and and unGodliness of those who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Humans get angry at injustice because we are created in the image of a God who is just.

So, the victim of injustice has to go through their own process about their experience and it's not a "one time event". Dealing with severe trauma isn't a simple decision to "just not be upset or get mad about it"; any more than an amputee can walk without a prosthetic, or crutches just because they want to believe bad enough that they can.

There are events in human experience that permanently change us; and being sexually assaulted is one of them. Surviving potentially fatal natural disasters, potentially fatal accidents, serious violent crime and acts of war are others. To a child who grows up in an incesteous home; that is equivalent on the stress scale to an adult being a POW. The huge disadvantage the child has though is that they can't reason through what's happening to them. The adult understands intellectually what it means to be a POW.

Now if the OP was truly convinced that the Lord was calling her to communicate with her brother at the expense of her relationship with her daughter; she never would have asked the question.

Should she never communicate with this brother? Not necessarily. It's obvious though that right now is not the right time.

God also requires us to let our actions be guided by wisdom and prudence. In my opinion the choice the OP has been given via circumstances is a "no brainer". She has to ask herself if she wants a relationship with her daughter? It's that simple. And if the brother's repentance is genuine; he would tell his sister, help your daughter. She needs you right now. If he really is redeemed; he would understand he has Christ to lean on. (Speaking of mercy?) The daughter knows not that mercy. If he's come to genuine repentance and is truly a believer; the daughter's soul is in more peril than his.

He aught to exercise the mercy you are requiring of the daughter!
 
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LoricaLady

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In the Bible when people were truly hearing from the Lord, sometimes they had a period of doubt. Just because the OP wants to be positive, by maybe getting insight from others, that does NOT mean she didn't hear from Him. You really don't know.

I never required any mercy of the daughter, never said that. I simply said, which is true, that if she hates it can make her physically and spiritually sick and no good comes from hate.

How do you know the mother can't have a relationship with the daughter if she writes her brother? You don't know that either. Her daughter is upset but I don't see anything in the OP where she threatens to leave her mother if they can't agree on this issue. Even if she did at this time, that does not mean they couldn't come to an understanding. You are assuming a lot of things.

"It's obvious this is not the right time..." You aren't there. You don't know what's going on in full. What is obvious to you is based on an incomplete picture.

Again, if the Almighty told her to communicate with her brother, she needs to do that. You can't just assume on that either, one way or another.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Just because the OP wants to be positive, by maybe getting insight from others, that does NOT mean she didn't hear from Him. You really don't know.

You don't know that she did; and neither does she. Again, if she was sure this thread wouldn't exist.

I simply said, which is true, that if she hates it can make her physically and spiritually sick and no good comes from hate.

You're aware that psalm 139 is a Messianic psalm; aren't you? If "nothing good comes out of hatred" than what do you make of this psalm?

19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

How do you know the mother can't have a relationship with the daughter if she writes her brother?

She wrote this.

Now my daughter is angry that I write him and feels betrayed by me.

And don't you think this conveys the fear that she could lose her daughter over this?

Her daughter is upset but I don't see anything in the OP where she threatens to leave her mother if they can't agree on this issue.

When you have been seriously betrayed by someone; do you stick around? The risk that the daughter won't is a serious one.

Even if she did at this time, that does not mean they couldn't come to an understanding.

And what makes you think the brother (who now is alleged to be redeemed) doesn't understand the daughter's difficulties and be telling his sister; go help your daughter. She needs you?

He's the one who interjected himself onto her to begin with. So of course it's logical the daughter would be asking why are his needs still more important than mine?

"It's obvious this is not the right time..." You aren't there. You don't know what's going on in full.

Yes actually; I have "been there". I know what's "going on in full". I lived it.

My mother felt my brother was more important than any of her daughters. My mother died 17 years ago and still to this day, the primary emotion I would describe of having for my mother is apathy. Her eternity is sealed. She's probably going to be in the lake of fire. Nothing I can do about that except let God be God. Same thing with my brother. I pray God puts an end to the abuse. One way or another; take him out of the way. He's probably going to be in the lake of fire too. Let God be God.

God doesn't owe any of us any mercy. He's not obligated to redeem any of my family members any more than He's obligated to redeem me. Allegedly Jeffery Dahmer became a believer. I don't know if his conversion was genuine; but I know he was baptized before he was executed. If it's real; what a stunning testimony to a love none of us deserve!

Again, if the Almighty told her to communicate with her brother, she needs to do that. You can't just assume on that either, one way or another.

And you can't assume on it either. I find your insistence that "she must have heard from God"; (to support the offender over the victim) odd but not surprising. If this was the Old Testament; it would have been a moot point because the brother would have been executed.

Gee, God was an awful lot less understanding than we think He should be!
 
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LoricaLady

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You say "I know what's going on. I lived it." That is the feeling I get from lots of posters on this string, that they are still in pain over what they experienced. Very understandable.

Well, I have been hurt too, like most on the planet - though not as horrendously as some of you. Like all of us, I have hurt others, also, though not in those ways.

There have been a few times when I have felt led to avoid some people totally who didn't even seem that bad on the surface. (I never was told to hate them, though.) At other times, with some who have actually really hurt me, I have felt led to show mercy and have felt shown too, sometimes, that they had a sickness. It is all as the Father leads.

You seem so darned sure that the OP never heard from the Lord just because she is not positive. Again, people in the Bible have doubted what they heard. Abraham's wife Sarah laughed when she heard she would bear a child in old age. David was anointed by Saul to be king, but years later declared that Saul would probably kill him. Gideon had to put out that fleece, and throw the ax on the water to be sure he had heard right. Zacharias doubted his wife would bear a son even when an angel appeared to him to make that announcement.

You don't know what that woman heard, so please don't act like you are so sure she didn't hear from the Almighty. I don't know either. It is between her and the Lord.

I could be wrong, but the feeling I get is that some here are trying to wrap themselves in a cloak of anger to protect themselves, somehow, from ever being hurt again. This feeling apparently extends over to another person's story where they don't want to even listen to the possibility that the Father would ever want to show any mercy to any such gross sinners, ever. Again, Paul had Christians put into jails that were disgusting and horrific and participated in the death of at least one. David committed adultery and had the woman's husband murdered. The Father showed them mercy. In other cases, it is true, that the Almighty said "no mercy" for the enemies of Israel. HE decides. We don't.

I pray for your healing and the healing of all those on this string and that you will be led as He knows is best for you particularly.

The other side of the story is that some have had miraculous healings from deadly diseases when they let go of hate and forgave. You can discount those. I don't. But research what anger and hatred do to the immunological system. How can it be good for anyone? Rhetorical Q. "Anger resides in the lap of fools....Do not let the sun go down on your anger."

Anger and hate should be turned over to the Father. They are sort of like revenge in the heart, seems to me. "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. I will repay." Let Him do His job, as HE decides, and seek Him for healing.

And that is really all I have to say on this string.

Blessings and bye.
 
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Paidiske

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For me, it's not about protecting myself. It's more a deep, grief-stricken awareness of how horrendously much the Church (and society in general, but it's been a particular problem for the Church) has dealt with these issues badly, and caused victims further trauma and damage.

I think our first duty is to make sure we're not doing more harm. Then, within the parameters of not doing more harm, we can look at what scope we have for doing good. But the minute we take our eye off that do-no-harm ball, we know from long and bitter experience, we are in trouble.
 
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LoricaLady

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Well, I have this habit of thinking of something else to say after I decide to sign off.

Here it is. Years ago I felt the Father kept bringing me the word of knowledge "cancer." Well, in my smugness I felt it must be related to someone else. So I prayed that whoever that might be would be fine. But the word kept coming to me here and there over some months. Finally I prayed earnestly enough to know why that word was pestering me. Then the Father showed me.

There were some people who had "done me wrong." I did nothing to deserve their treatment. I was shown that my rehashing of what they did, with angry thoughts, was leaving a door open to the enemy that could ruin my health.

Not very long after that I was near a newspaper stand and felt led to buy a paper. Inside was an article about how anger seriously damages our immunological system.

Well, I started practicing to get rid of those angry thoughts, to get off that mental treadmill. It wasn't easy! It took a lot of practice for over a month and even then those thoughts would try to intrude here and there for a long time. What amazed me was how often I had been nourishing and encouraging those thoughts! This only became apparent when I worked to dismiss them.

Now not long after the warning I had a doctor's visit for a lump under my skin. There was some minor surgery and I was told that the lump might have been "pre cancerous."

Even if people don't think they should let go of anger and resentment for spiritual reasons, hey how about for physical health reasons? Why let the victimizer hurt you in another way?

An interesting thing happened when I got rid of those angry thoughts. Without trying to, I forgave those people. Sometimes the Father shows us that people are "spiritually blind." They really don't even see what they are doing. Since they don't - at this time anyway - walk in the Light, but walk in darkness, they don't even "get it" that they are sinning.

We have probably all suffered from spiritual blindness of one kind or another and that may be true for all our lives.

Now some are just evil. The Bible says there is demon seed, planted by their father the devil.
But do we know who those are? Most likely not. He does. Even with them, what good do hatred and anger do, and they can make people horribly sick. "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. I will repay."
 
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drich0150

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My brother molested my daughter and she told me when she was 23. I asked if she wanted to go to the police and she said no. Next day I confronted him and he admitted it. I was surprised he admitted it and told him he needed to work it out with her. My father was diagnosed with cancer so we put it aside to deal with him. After my father passed my brothers new girl friend shows up with her daughter and I know I have to tell her. I did and she still married him. Our family loses contact with him due to an argument with our mom. I began getting tugs from God to reach out to D (brother) we I refused. Seven years later he is arrested for molesting stepdaughter. We began writing and I sent him a bible. The police found out about my daughter and asked if she wanted to press charges and she did. I am all for her. I also forgive D and don't want to abandon him. He only has me and mom. He just agreed to a 22yr sentence. Now my daughter is angry that I write him and feels betrayed by me. How do I show her that I love her but I also have compassion for him?

Our forgiveness is tied to our salvation.

I know many of us don't like to hear this but it is true and Jesus himself taught it from the lord prayer to parables to his teachings on judgement and how it all works

(luke 11:
2 Jesus said to the followers, “This is how you should pray:

‘Father, we pray that your name will always be kept holy.
We pray that your kingdom will come.
3 Give us the food we need for each day.
4 Forgive our sins,
just as we forgive everyone who has done wrong to us.

Meaning use the same measure to forgive us as we forgive others.. Ie if we unconditionally forgive then God forgive me unconditionally, if we forgive but do not forget, then God do me the same way. This is what the lord's prayer Jesus taught in luke 11

Then in the parable of the unmerciful servant.
mat 18:21-35
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 18 - Easy-to-Read Version

The take away here is no matter what someone may own you in the way of a sin debt is only a fraction of what you owe God. One may say I never raped anyone Christ may correct them and tell them their lust or covetousness is the same sin or their hatred of another is even worse. So again no one owes an individual in the way of a sin debt than what they owe God. Therefore if you wish to have your debt forgiven You must forgive what is owed to you. If you can not forgive if you prayed the lord's prayer ever, you are asking your sins not be forgiven if you can not also forgive.

I was molested by a cousin because my mother did not rat him out when she was younger and he did it to her. (and because he was a monster) Now do or should I hate my mother for not telling on the molester cousin? Her unwillingness to face her attacker put who knows how many others in his grasp including me.

Like wise should the step daughter hate or hold your daughter responsible for not putting a stop to your brother when she had a chance? So then why would it be a violation against your daughter if you can forgive your brother?

Forgiveness here does not mean things go back to the way they would have been if no sin were committed. it just means you are at peace with the debt he owes the state (22yrs) and what he owes God.

On your side I would not pretend this guys is normal nor justify anything he did. it was a sin and a debt is owed. I think your responsibility is to one set the example and then help both of the victims recover, and forgive IE find absolution with God and with the 22 years the state gave him.

One of the things I learned is you are a victim as long as you want to be. forgiveness is the first step away from victimhood.
 
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The Righterzpen

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You say "I know what's going on. I lived it." That is the feeling I get from lots of posters on this string, that they are still in pain over what they experienced.

You claim that I'm still in pain; and because I'm (allegedly) "still in such pain" that is the reason I'm "so unforgiving". Yet as you accuse me of assuming things; that's an awful broad assumption (as well as an arrogant one) upon your part.

I'm as recovered from this as I'm ever going to get in this life. I'm probably not going to get any "psychologically better" than I am; regardless of whether or not you think that's right or isn't (which you apparently don't). My conscience is clear before God though.

There is nothing "unforgiving" or "unspiritual" about praying for God to restrain evil. He has set governments for that purpose; (to restrain evil and punish evil doers) and if you have a problem with that; you don't understand God's justice.

You claim mercy trumps all. Yet mercy and justice are two sides of the same coin.

You seem so darned sure that the OP never heard from the Lord just because she is not positive.

And you seem "so darn sure" that she has; yet what evidence of that assumption on your part, do you have? Our final authority is suppose to be the Scriptures; and simply by reading what you've posted in these last couple of posts; I can surmise that you don't believe Scripture is (your) final authority. You may proclaim to believe that verbally; but practically you don't.

You don't know what that woman heard, so please don't act like you are so sure she didn't hear from the Almighty. I don't know either.

You don't know what she heard either; so don't act like you know what she heard is from God!

Again, Scripture is to be our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. So, anyone who searches the Scripture regarding such things; would find God's judgements are just.

Deuteronomy 22:
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:


Long before there was a push for "women's rights" did God recognize rape as an act of violence. He equates it here to murder. Now if the damsel "cries in the city" the assumption is that people would come to her aide; thus evidence that she was not a willing party to this.

There is more than one story of criminals whom I've heard of or read about who became believers and still received a death sentence for their crimes. And in the cases where I'd say their conversions were genuine; they all recognized that they deserved death for their crimes and they had no objection to their sentence. The one thief on the cross demonstrated this when he stated to the other thief "We are justly condemned for our crimes." He found mercy in the eyes of God, yet still endured Divinely appointed consequence for his sin!

So in the case of the OP of this thread; if the brother is truly repentant, he would rightly and very appropriately say to the sister: "Attend to your daughter; she needs you. This is what God would want of you. If your daughter's recovery process gets to the point where it's OK with her that you write to me; then yes, obviously I'd be glad to hear from you. In the mean time though, if she's upset at you writing, then don't write. She needs you now. Help her." That would be a genuine demonstration of grace upon the part of the brother.

I could be wrong, but the feeling I get is that some here are trying to wrap themselves in a cloak of anger to protect themselves, somehow, from ever being hurt again.

Pain is a part of our lives. Again, this is an arrogant assumption upon your part that what I say is some how because I'm trying to avoid pain. I have a 17 year old son with epilepsy; of which the chronic medical issues that have arisen upon a consequence of his medication could kill him. Every missed developmental milestone. Every reminder that he will never be able to live independently. Every "right of passage" (like simply getting a high school diploma) is painful for both himself; as well as myself to watch. He's cognitively lucid enough to know he won't attain these goals on account of his medial issues.

In this life we will have trials. I accept that. Don't assume I'm trying to avoid the pain they bring.

This feeling apparently extends over to another person's story where they don't want to even listen to the possibility that the Father would ever want to show any mercy to any such gross sinners, ever.

Again, another assumption upon your part. No poster on this thread who speaks of justice has ever said child molesters are beyond redemption. What people have said to the OP is to attend to her daughter. Any of us only ever have one set of biological parents in life; and kid you not, the quality of our relationships with those parents are important to us. God has set it that way.

I pray for your healing and the healing of all those on this string and that you will be led as He knows is best for you particularly.

Again, another awfully arrogant statement. You assume yourself to be more spiritual than someone like me. And so thus you think you need to correct my alleged misunderstanding of mercy?

Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

The other side of the story is that some have had miraculous healings from deadly diseases when they let go of hate and forgave.

An here is where you step outside of Scripture.

But research what anger and hatred do to the immunological system. How can it be good for anyone? Rhetorical Q. "Anger resides in the lap of fools....Do not let the sun go down on your anger."

Your allegation here does not explain psalm 139. Nor does it explain a sinless Messiah who got mad and threw people out of the temple. The same Messiah who yelled at His own disciples for chasing away the parents wishing to bring their children to Him.

Ecclesiastes 7:9
Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.

This verse is speaking of someone who's looking for an excuse to fly off the handle; not someone who's grappling with a profound violation of their personhood.

The word "haste" here means "to terrify" and "be angry" means "to be provoked to anger". This is speaking of someone who uses anger to get their way. They are impatient and unyielding "personal terrorists" of those around them.

You've posted a fine example here of taking a verse out of context.

Anger and hate should be turned over to the Father. They are sort of like revenge in the heart, seems to me. "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. I will repay." Let Him do His job, as HE decides, and seek Him for healing.

And again; no poster that you are accusing of being "unspiritual" here would disagree with this. Mark the point though. Vengeance IS Gods AND HE WILL TAKE IT! That is a truth we all need to consider in all sobriety.

Amos 5:
18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.

19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.


THERE IS NO ESCAPE FOR THE UNREPENTANT!

Just because you are offended by those who speak of justice; does not negate the fact that justice is coming and rightfully so! Man is capable of committing horrendous acts of wickedness against his fellow man.

And how is it that you are offended by the anger of the victims?

The day I found out Saddam Hussein was dead; I was in the GoodWill and I heard it over the TV they had on. I always assumed I'd be "happy" and when I saw the Iraqis running through the streets cheering and waving Iraqi flags I cried. I didn't cry for any sorrow I felt for Hussein. I cried because this was the end of a chapter in history. A chapter that profoundly affected my life as well as the lives of all these people on the other side of the world. I was happy for the Iraqi people and I prayed for the stability of their country.

Proverbs 11:10
When it goeth well with the righteous, the city rejoiceth: and when the wicked perish, there is shouting.

Their rejoicing at his death did not make them evil. I understand why they were cheering. I felt a sense of relief when I found out Saddam was dead.

Here it is. Years ago I felt the Father kept bringing me the word of knowledge "cancer."

Now not long after the warning I had a doctor's visit for a lump under my skin. There was some minor surgery and I was told that the lump might have been "pre cancerous."

Even if people don't think they should let go of anger and resentment for spiritual reasons, hey how about for physical health reasons? Why let the victimizer hurt you in another way?

Here is a perfect example of lack of discernment. People aren't afflicted with ailments because of being angry over profound hurt. (Look at Job!) Jesus got angry over injustice. Why do you think He yelled at Pharisees?

An interesting thing happened when I got rid of those angry thoughts. Without trying to, I forgave those people. Sometimes the Father shows us that people are "spiritually blind." They really don't even see what they are doing. Since they don't - at this time anyway - walk in the Light, but walk in darkness, they don't even "get it" that they are sinning.

Here is another lie. The wicked know they commit wickedness for: "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness. They won't admit to you that they know their acts are evil. They will continually make up excuses; but they know!
 
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Our forgiveness is tied to our salvation.

I know many of us don't like to hear this but it is true and Jesus himself taught it from the lord prayer to parables to his teachings on judgement and how it all works

We are not redeemed by our ability to muster up excuses for other's behavior and pretend we've "forgiven" them.

If we really are redeemed, we are atoned for by the blood of Christ.

Meaning use the same measure to forgive us as we forgive others.. Ie if we unconditionally forgive then God forgive me unconditionally, if we forgive but do not forget, then God do me the same way.

Forgiveness is not unconditional. It is very much conditioned on Christ's atonement. The "purchase price" of the elect cost Christ more than we'll ever understand.

Also, if you never repent of your sin, that is evidence you were never redeemed.
 
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LoricaLady

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You claim that I'm still in pain; and because I'm (allegedly) "still in such pain" that is the reason I'm "so unforgiving". Yet as you accuse me of assuming things; that's an awful broad assumption (as well as an arrogant one) upon your part.

I'm as recovered from this as I'm ever going to get in this life. I'm probably not going to get any "psychologically better" than I am; regardless of whether or not you think that's right or isn't (which you apparently don't). My conscience is clear before God though.

There is nothing "unforgiving" or "unspiritual" about praying for God to restrain evil. He has set governments for that purpose; (to restrain evil and punish evil doers) and if you have a problem with that; you don't understand God's justice.

You claim mercy trumps all. Yet mercy and justice are two sides of the same coin.



And you seem "so darn sure" that she has; yet what evidence of that assumption on your part, do you have? Our final authority is suppose to be the Scriptures; and simply by reading what you've posted in these last couple of posts; I can surmise that you don't believe Scripture is (your) final authority. You may proclaim to believe that verbally; but practically you don't.



You don't know what she heard either; so don't act like you know what she heard is from God!

Again, Scripture is to be our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. So, anyone who searches the Scripture regarding such things; would find God's judgements are just.

Deuteronomy 22:
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:


Long before there was a push for "women's rights" did God recognize rape as an act of violence. He equates it here to murder. Now if the damsel "cries in the city" the assumption is that people would come to her aide; thus evidence that she was not a willing party to this.

There is more than one story of criminals whom I've heard of or read about who became believers and still received a death sentence for their crimes. And in the cases where I'd say their conversions were genuine; they all recognized that they deserved death for their crimes and they had no objection to their sentence. The one thief on the cross demonstrated this when he stated to the other thief "We are justly condemned for our crimes." He found mercy in the eyes of God, yet still endured Divinely appointed consequence for his sin!

So in the case of the OP of this thread; if the brother is truly repentant, he would rightly and very appropriately say to the sister: "Attend to your daughter; she needs you. This is what God would want of you. If your daughter's recovery process gets to the point where it's OK with her that you write to me; then yes, obviously I'd be glad to hear from you. In the mean time though, if she's upset at you writing, then don't write. She needs you now. Help her." That would be a genuine demonstration of grace upon the part of the brother.



Pain is a part of our lives. Again, this is an arrogant assumption upon your part that what I say is some how because I'm trying to avoid pain. I have a 17 year old son with epilepsy; of which the chronic medical issues that have arisen upon a consequence of his medication could kill him. Every missed developmental milestone. Every reminder that he will never be able to live independently. Every "right of passage" (like simply getting a high school diploma) is painful for both himself; as well as myself to watch. He's cognitively lucid enough to know he won't attain these goals on account of his medial issues.

In this life we will have trials. I accept that. Don't assume I'm trying to avoid the pain they bring.



Again, another assumption upon your part. No poster on this thread who speaks of justice has ever said child molesters are beyond redemption. What people have said to the OP is to attend to her daughter. Any of us only ever have one set of biological parents in life; and kid you not, the quality of our relationships with those parents are important to us. God has set it that way.



Again, another awfully arrogant statement. You assume yourself to be more spiritual than someone like me. And so thus you think you need to correct my alleged misunderstanding of mercy?

Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.



An here is where you step outside of Scripture.



Your allegation here does not explain psalm 139. Nor does it explain a sinless Messiah who got mad and threw people out of the temple. The same Messiah who yelled at His own disciples for chasing away the parents wishing to bring their children to Him.

Ecclesiastes 7:9
Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.

This verse is speaking of someone who's looking for an excuse to fly off the handle; not someone who's grappling with a profound violation of their personhood.

The word "haste" here means "to terrify" and "be angry" means "to be provoked to anger". This is speaking of someone who uses anger to get their way. They are impatient and unyielding "personal terrorists" of those around them.

You've posted a fine example here of taking a verse out of context.



And again; no poster that you are accusing of being "unspiritual" here would disagree with this. Mark the point though. Vengeance IS Gods AND HE WILL TAKE IT! That is a truth we all need to consider in all sobriety.

Amos 5:
18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.

19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.


THERE IS NO ESCAPE FOR THE UNREPENTANT!

Just because you are offended by those who speak of justice; does not negate the fact that justice is coming and rightfully so! Man is capable of committing horrendous acts of wickedness against his fellow man.

And how is it that you are offended by the anger of the victims?

The day I found out Saddam Hussein was dead; I was in the GoodWill and I heard it over the TV they had on. I always assumed I'd be "happy" and when I saw the Iraqis running through the streets cheering and waving Iraqi flags I cried. I didn't cry for any sorrow I felt for Hussein. I cried because this was the end of a chapter in history. A chapter that profoundly affected my life as well as the lives of all these people on the other side of the world. I was happy for the Iraqi people and I prayed for the stability of their country.

Proverbs 11:10
When it goeth well with the righteous, the city rejoiceth: and when the wicked perish, there is shouting.

Their rejoicing at his death did not make them evil. I understand why they were cheering. I felt a sense of relief when I found out Saddam was dead.







Here is a perfect example of lack of discernment. People aren't afflicted with ailments because of being angry over profound hurt. Jesus got angry over injustice. Why do you think He yelled at Pharisees?



Here is another lie. The wicked know they commit wickedness for: "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness. They won't admit to you that they know their acts are evil. They will continually make up excuses; but they know!
I am not going to get over an endless argument.
You claim that I'm still in pain; and because I'm (allegedly) "still in such pain" that is the reason I'm "so unforgiving". Yet as you accuse me of assuming things; that's an awful broad assumption (as well as an arrogant one) upon your part.

I'm as recovered from this as I'm ever going to get in this life. I'm probably not going to get any "psychologically better" than I am; regardless of whether or not you think that's right or isn't (which you apparently don't). My conscience is clear before God though.

There is nothing "unforgiving" or "unspiritual" about praying for God to restrain evil. He has set governments for that purpose; (to restrain evil and punish evil doers) and if you have a problem with that; you don't understand God's justice.

You claim mercy trumps all. Yet mercy and justice are two sides of the same coin.



And you seem "so darn sure" that she has; yet what evidence of that assumption on your part, do you have? Our final authority is suppose to be the Scriptures; and simply by reading what you've posted in these last couple of posts; I can surmise that you don't believe Scripture is (your) final authority. You may proclaim to believe that verbally; but practically you don't.



You don't know what she heard either; so don't act like you know what she heard is from God!

Again, Scripture is to be our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. So, anyone who searches the Scripture regarding such things; would find God's judgements are just.

Deuteronomy 22:
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:


Long before there was a push for "women's rights" did God recognize rape as an act of violence. He equates it here to murder. Now if the damsel "cries in the city" the assumption is that people would come to her aide; thus evidence that she was not a willing party to this.

There is more than one story of criminals whom I've heard of or read about who became believers and still received a death sentence for their crimes. And in the cases where I'd say their conversions were genuine; they all recognized that they deserved death for their crimes and they had no objection to their sentence. The one thief on the cross demonstrated this when he stated to the other thief "We are justly condemned for our crimes." He found mercy in the eyes of God, yet still endured Divinely appointed consequence for his sin!

So in the case of the OP of this thread; if the brother is truly repentant, he would rightly and very appropriately say to the sister: "Attend to your daughter; she needs you. This is what God would want of you. If your daughter's recovery process gets to the point where it's OK with her that you write to me; then yes, obviously I'd be glad to hear from you. In the mean time though, if she's upset at you writing, then don't write. She needs you now. Help her." That would be a genuine demonstration of grace upon the part of the brother.



Pain is a part of our lives. Again, this is an arrogant assumption upon your part that what I say is some how because I'm trying to avoid pain. I have a 17 year old son with epilepsy; of which the chronic medical issues that have arisen upon a consequence of his medication could kill him. Every missed developmental milestone. Every reminder that he will never be able to live independently. Every "right of passage" (like simply getting a high school diploma) is painful for both himself; as well as myself to watch. He's cognitively lucid enough to know he won't attain these goals on account of his medial issues.

In this life we will have trials. I accept that. Don't assume I'm trying to avoid the pain they bring.



Again, another assumption upon your part. No poster on this thread who speaks of justice has ever said child molesters are beyond redemption. What people have said to the OP is to attend to her daughter. Any of us only ever have one set of biological parents in life; and kid you not, the quality of our relationships with those parents are important to us. God has set it that way.



Again, another awfully arrogant statement. You assume yourself to be more spiritual than someone like me. And so thus you think you need to correct my alleged misunderstanding of mercy?

Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.



An here is where you step outside of Scripture.



Your allegation here does not explain psalm 139. Nor does it explain a sinless Messiah who got mad and threw people out of the temple. The same Messiah who yelled at His own disciples for chasing away the parents wishing to bring their children to Him.

Ecclesiastes 7:9
Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.

This verse is speaking of someone who's looking for an excuse to fly off the handle; not someone who's grappling with a profound violation of their personhood.

The word "haste" here means "to terrify" and "be angry" means "to be provoked to anger". This is speaking of someone who uses anger to get their way. They are impatient and unyielding "personal terrorists" of those around them.

You've posted a fine example here of taking a verse out of context.



And again; no poster that you are accusing of being "unspiritual" here would disagree with this. Mark the point though. Vengeance IS Gods AND HE WILL TAKE IT! That is a truth we all need to consider in all sobriety.

Amos 5:
18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.

19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.


THERE IS NO ESCAPE FOR THE UNREPENTANT!

Just because you are offended by those who speak of justice; does not negate the fact that justice is coming and rightfully so! Man is capable of committing horrendous acts of wickedness against his fellow man.

And how is it that you are offended by the anger of the victims?

The day I found out Saddam Hussein was dead; I was in the GoodWill and I heard it over the TV they had on. I always assumed I'd be "happy" and when I saw the Iraqis running through the streets cheering and waving Iraqi flags I cried. I didn't cry for any sorrow I felt for Hussein. I cried because this was the end of a chapter in history. A chapter that profoundly affected my life as well as the lives of all these people on the other side of the world. I was happy for the Iraqi people and I prayed for the stability of their country.

Proverbs 11:10
When it goeth well with the righteous, the city rejoiceth: and when the wicked perish, there is shouting.

Their rejoicing at his death did not make them evil. I understand why they were cheering. I felt a sense of relief when I found out Saddam was dead.







Here is a perfect example of lack of discernment. People aren't afflicted with ailments because of being angry over profound hurt. Jesus got angry over injustice. Why do you think He yelled at Pharisees?



Here is another lie. The wicked know they commit wickedness for: "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness. They won't admit to you that they know their acts are evil. They will continually make up excuses; but they know!
I never said mercy trumps all. Love trumps all. Your accusations of "lack of discernment" and "here is another lie" and so on are inappropriate and insulting. But that is up to a moderator to decide. I no longer feel it would be worthwhile to respond to you. I will say though that drich0150, who also was molested and betrayed, impresses me because she speaks as one who has learned how not to be a victim and to forgive. She seems to have peace. I pray you do, also.

Bye and blessings!
 
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The Righterzpen

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I am not going to get over an endless argument.

I never said mercy trumps all. Love trumps all. Your accusations of "lack of discernment" and "here is another lie" and so on are inappropriate and insulting. But that is up to a moderator to decide. I no longer feel it would be worthwhile to respond to you. I will say though that drich0150, who also was molested and betrayed, impresses me because she speaks as one who has learned how not to be a victim and to forgive. She seems to have peace. I pray you do, also.

Bye and blessings!

Love trumps all and yet still; love condemns the unrepentant.

Just in case you are worried about it; yes, I have peace (Christ is my peace.) and I am not a victim. The day I told my brother I would bite him for his attempts to force me to perform oral sex on him - was the day I learned not to be a victim! (That was also the day the abuse ended!) I was 10 years old.
 
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Sketcher

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My brother molested my daughter and she told me when she was 23. I asked if she wanted to go to the police and she said no. Next day I confronted him and he admitted it. I was surprised he admitted it and told him he needed to work it out with her. My father was diagnosed with cancer so we put it aside to deal with him. After my father passed my brothers new girl friend shows up with her daughter and I know I have to tell her. I did and she still married him. Our family loses contact with him due to an argument with our mom. I began getting tugs from God to reach out to D (brother) we I refused. Seven years later he is arrested for molesting stepdaughter. We began writing and I sent him a bible. The police found out about my daughter and asked if she wanted to press charges and she did. I am all for her. I also forgive D and don't want to abandon him. He only has me and mom. He just agreed to a 22yr sentence. Now my daughter is angry that I write him and feels betrayed by me. How do I show her that I love her but I also have compassion for him?
Definitely have a talk with her and find out what would help her. To me, she seems to be sending mixed messages, but make sure you're not blaming her for things during the conversation, and seek clarification by emphasizing where you are confused. Your confusion is the problem, and her telling you the truth about what she needs from you is the solution.
 
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JCFantasy23

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It is important to forgive, but not everyone can do so immediately. Replying to a victim such as this that the main thing they need to worry about is working on themselves (forgiveness) and making them feel guilty if they aren't ready isn't at all productive for their healing. She didn't do anything wrong and is 100% a victim in this. I would talk to her with sympathy and comfort, not lecturing on how she should forgive - that is something she has to come to, in time, on her own and with God's help. But it does take time, this isn't an overnight healing.
 
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If someone raped your wife and was sent to prison, would you write him letters at the expense of your wife's pain?

Why would you do that to your daughter?
If someone raped your wife and was sent to prison, would you write him letters at the expense of your wife's pain?

Why would you do that to your daughter?
 
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LoricaLady

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It is important to forgive, but not everyone can do so immediately. Replying to a victim such as this that the main thing they need to worry about is working on themselves (forgiveness) and making them feel guilty if they aren't ready isn't at all productive for their healing. She didn't do anything wrong and is 100% a victim in this. I would talk to her with sympathy and comfort, not lecturing on how she should forgive - that is something she has to come to, in time, on her own and with God's help. But it does take time, this isn't an overnight healing.
Maybe I missed something in a post above, but I did not see anyone saying to lecture the daughter on forgiveness or on anything. You are right to say that any such approach would be wrong.

I myself said not to try to rush her into any such direction, and to be extra supportive to the daughter. What I saw were people primarily addressing the mother feeling prompted to forgive in spite of the fact that the daughter did not agree with her on that. I don't see anyone disagreeing that the daughter is an innocent victim.

To me the main issue here is that the mother felt led of the Father to forgive. Not to prompt her daughter in anyway, but to forgive her brother herself. Either the Lord prompted her that way, or He didn't. If He did - and not one of us can speak for the mother, much less Him - then she is wise to obey.

Some may insist she did not hear from Him. That is presumptuous to say they know all about what the Father would or would not do.

"Love your enemies.... Be good to those who spitefully abuse you....In all things love....Do not be overcome with evil but overcome evil with good....If today you hear His voice, do not harden your heart..." and HE is to lead anyone on how to do any of that. Again, I am speaking in relation to the OP, the mother.
 
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You don't write him. The victim comes first. Unfortunately losing contact with the mother of his victim is a consequence of his heinous act.

Apologize profusely to your daughter and do not continue to betray her.
She should convince the daughter the importance of forgiveness and being compassionate to one another. Therefore, convince both of them to meet and reconcile and God would forgive them.
 
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You don't write him. The victim comes first. Unfortunately losing contact with the mother of his victim is a consequence of his heinous act.

Apologize profusely to your daughter and do not continue to betray her.

Children are supposed to obey parents and not the other way around. Prison is a bad enough punishment trust me I've been there. He might give up hope and get up to more foolish things,there's a lot of gang activity in prison you know.

If we are to reflect God's love we are to do it to good and bad people:
Matt 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Matt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

So it's a bad idea to throw away her brother like that. Others have covered the forgiveness part quite well.
 
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I myself said not to try to rush her into any such direction, and to be extra supportive to the daughter. What I saw were people primarily addressing the mother feeling prompted to forgive in spite of the fact that the daughter did not agree with her on that. I don't see anyone disagreeing that the daughter is an innocent victim.

There are a lot of posts throughout the thread talking about telling the mother to tell the daughter she needs to forgive, and that's it's a sin not to forgive, etc. I was not directing this at all at your post. My point was bringing this up to the daughter isn't something I think would be good for her since she is the victim.
 
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