Did the apostles and the early Church believe the Earth was flat?

RDKirk · Oct 3, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
The Ptolemaic model was likely the governing cosmological outlook for most of the Christian era. It was geocentric, geostationary, round earth. When Copernicus came along with his heliocentric model, nobody was particularly moved, as it was far more complicated (in terms of number of motions) and was plainly contrary to scripture and commonsense.

Still, the ancient Hebrew conception of the earth, for everyone apart from the filthy Babylonians and a few smart-alecky Greeks, was flat and enclosed.

View attachment 264112

And Jesus himself endorses this when he congratulates the Pharisees: 'Ye hypocrites! Ye can discern the face of the earth and the sky...' (Lk 12:56)

I have a face, and it is not flat.

RDKirk · Oct 3, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
You'll find that cartography did not become 3D until around that time, the first Mercator projection appearing 1569. Strange days indeed. Of course, no navigator or surveyor ever allows for curvature in charting practice to this day. It's just another bogus 'transform equation'.

We do in the military to target ballistic missiles.

If you don't calculate for the curvature of the earth, the missile will fall short of the target every time.

Anguspure · Oct 3, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
There are many experienced sailors who would and do disagree.

I have never met one, and anybody who found themselves out there without a basic understanding of spherical geometry, or didn't have a wee machine that does the calculations for him would soon be hopelessly lost.

That's right, so it would be useless in an aeroplane, for example.

Gyroscopes are used extensively in aviation: Gyroscopic Flight Instruments - SKYbrary Aviation Safety

Ok Admiral, I'm hearing you. Let's flush the Captain Cooks of the world, scrap all those US military guidance systems described in multiple declassified technical docs that expressly state flat nonrotating earth as a core assumption. Hell, who'd name a boat 'Nimitz' anyway.

Not aware of such docs but, again, we don't need the flash technology to know what works in practice. A basic sun sight simply doesn't work with plane geometry. Spherical geometry is the only mathematics that works, and the tables from which we get our position of celestial bodies is formulated using heliocentric spherical mathematics.

Captain James Cook was one of the early mathematical navigators, used spherical geometry very accurately, and pioneered the longitude by chronometer method which is also based on spherical thinking. Cooks voyage to Tahiti and NZ had the major objective of observing the transit of Venus across the face of the Sun, enabling astronomers of the day to measure the size of the solar system based on heliocentric principles.

That's firmament, raqia. As in the vault of heaven. As in Gen 1 (KJV):

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

We might consider the barrier required between a high and low pressure system to keep the 2nd law of thermodynamics acting to suck the atmosphere into the void. Unless you're wacky enough to take the Bible on face value and believe in waters above.

The word translated waters is a bit more fluid than one might assume. Further to this, if we look at some of the other more gaseous planets we do indeed find waters above as well as below.
It seems to me that a water (vapour) canopy would be just the thing to protect the new creation from the hazardous effects of solar radiation.

Strong's Hebrew: 7549. רָקִ֫יעַ (raqia) -- an extended surface, expanse

Anyway brother, feel free to continue to lean on your own understanding. I'll just let God be true if that's ok.

Can't get a whole lot more extended than a sphere, the surface just goes on and on forever.

Shrewd Manager · Oct 4, 2019

Anguspure said:
I have never met one, and anybody who found themselves out there without a basic understanding of spherical geometry, or didn't have a wee machine that does the calculations for him would soon be hopelessly lost.

Well I've never seen a curved body of water. Nor has anyone ever experimentally proved water curves. Measure a frozen lake, salt flats, anything by a zoom camera on a tripod at one end and a mirror at the other, heights and distance. Water finds its level. As in sea level, and horizon as in horizontal. My oh my.

We can consistently see much much much much further than we should. Independent expert-verified laser test results here:
Balaton Laser Experiment | FECORE
Target acquired at 220 miles:

Many many other examples.

No engineer designing long distance infrastructure, eg railroads, bridges, canals etc - ever allows for curvature. Not one piece of property on earth has earth curve in its survey plan. Don't like it, go answer one of the FE contests, they offer $10k for proof of curvature. Zen Garcia successfully defended a claim against his rejection of such an entry in a US local court case recently. His outline here:
Globe vs Flat Earth Court Case | Facebook

A bunch of interviews with various experts in related fields here:
Expert Series : Flat Earth - YouTube

A review of 44 white papers on hi-tech military systems using flat nonrotating earth conventions here:
Gov’t Admits FLAT EARTH

Anguspure said:
Gyroscopes are used extensively in aviation: Gyroscopic Flight Instruments - SKYbrary Aviation Safety

Of course they are, but rigidity in space is going to be counter-productive a globe.

Anguspure said:
the size of the solar system based on heliocentric principles.

Based on mathemagic.

Anguspure said:
other more gaseous planets

Wandering stars plus creative software equals babylonian sorcery for all.

Anguspure said:
It seems to me that a water (vapour) canopy would be just the thing to protect the new creation from the hazardous effects of solar radiation.

But the atmosphere wouldn't get sucked into the vacuum or just plain blown away at an orbital velocity of 66,600 mph? While the earth tilts over at 66.6 degrees? A hope you don't think this is all coincidink:
Globe earth mathematical calculations ... 666

What a shocker! Read your Bible man. This is all a cunning counterfeit. You think you're smarter than the devil? You think he can't deceive you because of your great worldly knowledge of the sea? And I've got real estate for sale on the moon. Be not deceived, this has all been drafted up on some Masonic drawing board.

ViaCrucis · Oct 4, 2019

prodromos said:
Well then, their magical ice wall sees the sun for 24 hours during Summer, no matter what part of their flat earth model ice wall you are visiting, even on opposite sides of the 'plane'. Impossible in their model, yet it happens every Summer.

Yep. Though they'd just deny it. They believe that the militaries of the world are posted around the ice wall to keep anyone from seeing it. They claim it's part of the Antarctic Treaty, even though the treaty actually specifically forbids military installations:

Article I, Section 1
"Antarctica shall be used for peaceful purposes only. There shall be prohibited, inter alia, any measures of a military nature, such as the establishment of military bases and fortifications, the carrying out of military maneuvers, as well as the testing of any type of weapons."

It's Grade A crankery no matter what. But it can be amusing (when it's not infuriating) just how far flerfers go to trying to maintain their claims. The lengths reached to deny easily observable reality.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Oct 4, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
Well I've never seen a curved body of water. Nor has anyone ever experimentally proved water curves.

There's a good chance you don't believe in gravity. But for those of us who did pay attention in the 2nd grade, water doesn't settle "flat" by some kind of magic. Water, like all mass, experiences the pull of gravitation, in the case of the earth, the center of mass is inside the earth's core. As such water falls down toward the center of mass. Since the earth's curvature isn't noticeable given how small we are relative to the earth, then that curvature is only noticeable at higher elevations. Water curves because water settles as a surface upon the earth.

This is easily observable at higher elevations.

No, it has nothing to do with "fish eye lenses".

You, like every other flat earther, could very easily go and see for yourself that these things are true. But maintaining the conspiracy theory is more important than the truth, so you won't.

-CryptoLuthearn

Anguspure · Oct 4, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
Well I've never seen a curved body of water. Nor has anyone ever experimentally proved water curves. Measure a frozen lake, salt flats, anything by a zoom camera on a tripod at one end and a mirror at the other, heights and distance. Water finds its level. As in sea level, and horizon as in horizontal. My oh my.

We can consistently see much much much much further than we should. Independent expert-verified laser test results here:
Balaton Laser Experiment | FECORE
Target acquired at 220 miles:

Many many other examples.

No engineer designing long distance infrastructure, eg railroads, bridges, canals etc - ever allows for curvature. Not one piece of property on earth has earth curve in its survey plan. Don't like it, go answer one of the FE contests, they offer $10k for proof of curvature. Zen Garcia successfully defended a claim against his rejection of such an entry in a US local court case recently. His outline here:
Globe vs Flat Earth Court Case | Facebook

A bunch of interviews with various experts in related fields here:
Expert Series : Flat Earth - YouTube

A review of 44 white papers on hi-tech military systems using flat nonrotating earth conventions here:
Gov’t Admits FLAT EARTH

Of course they are, but rigidity in space is going to be counter-productive a globe.

Based on mathemagic.

Wandering stars plus creative software equals babylonian sorcery for all.

But the atmosphere wouldn't get sucked into the vacuum or just plain blown away at an orbital velocity of 66,600 mph? While the earth tilts over at 66.6 degrees? A hope you don't think this is all coincidink:
Globe earth mathematical calculations ... 666

What a shocker! Read your Bible man. This is all a cunning counterfeit. You think you're smarter than the devil? You think he can't deceive you because of your great worldly knowledge of the sea? And I've got real estate for sale on the moon. Be not deceived, this has all been drafted up on some Masonic drawing board.

A shocker indeed! The knowledge I have is no more worldly than my knowledge of how to make a cup of tea and every bit is basic.
The examples you give such as the ability to see longer distances under certain conditions are exceptions that prove the rule, and easily accounted for with atmospheric explanations.
That you have never observed a curved body of water simply tells me you have never been on a big enough body of water in calm conditions. I can tell you from daily experience and observation that the horizon dips away from you in all directions wherever you are.
Will have a look at your info, more because I am fascinated to learn why somebody would hold to such things now, let alone at the time of the disciples. But there is nothing Masonic about simple observation using the eyes that God gave us.

Dkh587 · Oct 4, 2019

redleghunter said:
Is the moon flat? The sun? If so are we just happening to see their flat sides? I mean, come on man...Every other heavenly body out there is a sphere.

We’re not on a heavenly body according to God.

Anguspure · Oct 5, 2019

Dkh587 said:
We’re not on a heavenly body according to God.

Semantics.

prodromos · Oct 5, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
No engineer designing long distance infrastructure, eg railroads, bridges, canals etc - ever allows for curvature.

Almost nothing built on that sort of scale requires tolerances that wouldn't allow for the earths curvature, however engineers did have to take the earths curvature into consideration with the design and construction of the Large Hadron Collider in Geneva, since it required extremely fine tolerances over large distances.

Not one piece of property on earth has earth curve in its survey plan.

If you were to buy small scale topographical maps covering a large area, and were to glue them together in one large map, being careful to line up the lines of latitude and longitude, your large map would take on the shape of a portion of a large sphere. It would not be able to lay flat.

yeshuasavedme · Oct 5, 2019

prodromos said:
Almost nothing built on that sort of scale requires tolerances that wouldn't allow for the earths curvature, however engineers did have to take the earths curvature into consideration with the design and construction of the Large Hadron Collider in Geneva, since it required extremely fine tolerances over large distances.

If you were to buy small scale topographical maps covering a large area, and were to glue them together in one large map, being careful to line up the lines of latitude and longitude, your large map would take on the shape of a portion of a large sphere. It would not be able to lay flat.

And the great pyramid.
Think I read that they used water in a ditch as the guide for leveling foundations on a scale as large as that.
Some argued on here that water would not be able to follow the curve of the globe, but that is silly, since there is a force greater than gravity that is universal and in the Word it is called “Firmament of His Powers”. The powers that have to be overcome to make any object to ascend into the face of the heavens (the atmosphere where the birds fly, as the Bible calls it), or for any spaceship or? to shoot out into the second heaven, above the face of the heavens, “where God ordained the birds to fly, in the Word), is the same force that keeps water at the same relative level to the “land” and the atmosphere -the first heaven, at the same level/distance circling the earth.
And I would add, the same powers that make it impossible for man to descend into the ocean without overcoming those powers of the waters by the inventions that enable man to do so.

Jipsah · Oct 5, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
You might even find the science supports it.

That ain't the way to bet.

Jipsah · Oct 5, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
Yes, there's no serious debate that the Bible's a 'flat earth book'.

Not much of a geology book then, is it?

Jipsah · Oct 5, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
or use a good telescope at a harbor to observe the tops of ships appearing over the horizon before the hulls and water lines

Yeah, for some reason I can't see the ship's hull if I'm standing on the beach, only the masts. But I can see the whole thing from the 2nd story balcony. Hmmm...

A_Thinker · Oct 5, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
Well I've never seen a curved body of water. Nor has anyone ever experimentally proved water curves.

So ... you've never seen a raindrop ... or water clinging to your body after a shower ?

Jipsah · Oct 5, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
You'll find that a good telescope will consistently enable you to see objects much much much further away than you should, objects from a viewing height and at distances that on a ball earth of 40k km circumference should be completely lost behind curvature.

Nope. If a ship is hull down from where you stand, it's hull down whether you use a 'scope or not. Telescopes dont' see around corners or below the horizon.

Nice try, though.

I suggest you do some more research.

Physician, heal thine own self.

ViaCrucis · Oct 5, 2019

Dkh587 said:
We’re not on a heavenly body according to God.

The term "heavenly body" is an earth-bound observer term for a frame of reference.

If we were on Mars, then earth would be a "heavenly body", since it would be in the "heavens", i.e. the sky.

Because it's about the observer's frame of reference.

-CryptoLutheran

Jipsah · Oct 5, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
Bible says it's flat

Which is why it makes a poor engineering manual.

, science (not the falsely so-called purported variety) agrees.

Baloney.

Ah, it's great to be free in Christ.

It is indeed. And He created the earth in its spherical form however badly you'd like to believe otherwise

Dkh587 · Oct 5, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
The term "heavenly body" is an earth-bound observer term for a frame of reference.

If we were on Mars, then earth would be a "heavenly body", since it would be in the "heavens", i.e. the sky.

Because it's about the observer's frame of reference.

-CryptoLutheran

Sounds good, but that’s not what God or the prophets taught.

ViaCrucis · Oct 5, 2019

Dkh587 said:
Sounds good, but that’s not what God or the prophets taught.

Well I guess then I have one of two choices:

1) Deny observable, empirical reality and blindly accept your fallible reading of Scripture or
2) Believe in one God, the Maker of all things, both seen and unseen.

I guess I'll have to go with number 2.

-CryptoLutheran

Did the apostles and the early Church believe the Earth was flat?

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