Is the Rapture shown in 1Thess 4 showing in Revelation? If so, where?

iamlamad said:

The question is, CAN this word mean something else? It is a compound word - "apo" and "stasia."

Here is what STrong's says about "apo:
of separation
of local separation,

after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

of separation of a part from the whole
where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

of a state of separation, that is of distance
physical, of distance of place

At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.

Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES.

The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.

Putting these two words together then can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.

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You'd have to persuade the Greeks themselves of that.

DavidPT said:

Let's look at 1 Thessalonians 4 then.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


What does this plainly tell us? Does it not tell us there can be no rapture without there first being a resurrection preceding it? Shouldn't that mean we look for a resurrection context in the book of Revelation?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Here happens to be resurrection context. The first resurrection meant here has to be applying to 1 Thessalonians 4:16 then. And if so, that can mean only one thing, logically, though no direct mention of a rapture in Revelation 20, a rapture still has to occur around this same time since that is the pattern laid out in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17----a resurrection followed by a rapture. Both contexts, in Thessalonians 4:16-17 and Revelation 20:4 and verse 6, involves only the resurrection of the saved and not the unsaved as well. Based on this then, it can be logically deduced that Revelation 20:4 and verse 6 also involve a rapture.

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The first resurrection, the resurrection of the just, rapture...all the same event.

Billy Evmur said:

The first resurrection, the resurrection of the just, rapture...all the same event.

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The first resurrection is the salvation experience which raises us from death in sin to life in Christ.

John 5:24
Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Copperhead said:

How was Philip "raptured" then in Acts 8:39?

Still, back to the original thrust of this debate, one has to prove that a pre-trib position is invalid from both the OT and the NT for it to be a valid assertion. That is the requirement of the scripture mandate of a matter has to be supported by the testimony of two or more witnesses. It is the standard we are shown in the example of the Bereans.

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You are deliberately obfuscating Biblical descriptions of events.

Acts 8: 26. And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27. And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28. Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29. Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30. And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31. And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33. In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35. Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37. And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Phillip was in Azotus. He didn't go to heaven directly after his testimony to the eunuch. You sir are a liar.

narrowgateevangelist said:

You are deliberately obfuscating Biblical descriptions of events.

Acts 8: 26. And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27. And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28. Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29. Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30. And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31. And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33. In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35. Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37. And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Phillip was in Azotus. He didn't go to heaven directly after his testimony to the eunuch. You sir are a liar.

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That is a strong word to use against a brother in Christ!

jgr said:

The first resurrection is the salvation experience which raises us from death in sin to life in Christ.

John 5:24
Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

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You really should consult a dictionary! Passing from death to life as in John 5 is speaking of SPIRITUAL death to spiritual life.

The word "resurrection" is speaking of passing from physical death to physical life.
Don't take my word for it: look at a dictionary!

Billy Evmur said:

The first resurrection, the resurrection of the just, rapture...all the same event.

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Billy, this is not really the whole truth!

Jesus was the FIRST to participate in the "first" or primary of all resurrections. Those caught up in the rapture will be the second wave, the 144,000 will be the third wave, and the Old Testament saints - when they rise on the "last day" - will make the fourth wave. The beheaded will probably rise at the same time as the Old Testament saints.

jgr said:

You'd have to persuade the Greeks themselves of that.

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You can ask Paul when you meet him!

iamlamad said:

You really should consult a dictionary! Passing from death to life as in John 5 is speaking of SPIRITUAL death to spiritual life.

The word "resurrection" is speaking of passing from physical death to physical life.
Don't take my word for it: look at a dictionary!

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Death and life both usually appear as physical descriptions, but in these verses they are used spiritually.

If death and life are used spiritually in these verses, then the description of the transition from the former to the latter must also be spiritual.

iamlamad said:

That is a strong word to use against a brother in Christ!

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I never stuttered. A brother in Christ must Love Christ. A Judas will always sell Messiah for 30 prices of silver. Or a private jet with a 501c3 tax exemption. Judas isn't my brother.

John 5: 3. In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. 4. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had. 5. And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. 6. When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole? 7. The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me. 8. Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk. 9. And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath. 10. The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

narrowgateevangelist said:

I never stuttered. A brother in Christ must Love Christ. A Judas will always sell Messiah for 30 prices of silver. Or a private jet with a 501c3 tax exemption. Judas isn't my brother.

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You called him a liar. Are you SURE He was trying to deceive you? the Love chapter says we should think the BEST of others, not the worst.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Current poll results

Is the Rapture showing in Revelation?

1. Yes
   12 vote(s)
   52.2%
2. No
   7 vote(s)
   30.4%
3. Maybe
   2 vote(s)
   8.7%
4. *
   I don't know
   2 vote(s)
   8.7%
5. Doesn't matter
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
6. other
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%

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52% got it wrong. God did not show John the rapture so he did not write of it. But God did show John the raptured church save in the throne room. (Rev. 7 as the great crowd too large to number.)

iamlamad said:

God did not show John the rapture so he did not write of it. But God did show John the raptured church save in the throne room. (Rev. 7 as the great crowd too large to number.)

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That's not meaning the raptured church though. But it is meaning the church, as in they physically died in and because of the GT. It says so right in the text----These are they which came out of great tribulation. The text is not saying they were saved from GT, as in raptured before the GT even begins. It is saying they died during GT.

DavidPT said:

That's not meaning the raptured church though. But it is meaning the church, as in they physically died in and because of the GT. It says so right in the text----These are they which came out of great tribulation. The text is not saying they were saved from GT, as in raptured before the GT even begins. It is saying they died during GT.

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Sorry, David. You may think that is what the text says, but you don't understand the meaning. You see, John has not yet even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the second half of the week where the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will take place.

Did you notice in Rev. 2 that one of the letters - to the church of Thyatira - Jesus was talking to the woman Jezabel, and saying that if she did not repent of leading the church men into sexual sins, He would cast her into "great tribulation." He was CERTAINLY not saying He would keep her alive for 2000 years so she could be in the great tribulation at the end of the age!

What am I saying? In the mind of God, there has been many times of "great tribulation" in church history, but ONLY ONCE will there be "great tribulation" greater than all others - and those days will be during the last half of the week.

In Rev. 7 all John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture people will be dying for their testimony - just as they are TODAY. "Tribulation" cannot get any greater than when someone becomes a martyr! They cannot be killed twice.

What it is really saying (in the Greek) is that each one came out of great tribulation (the church age) ONE AT A TIME as each one was born again and washed their robes in the blood of Jesus. Again, John does not get to the days of GT that Jesus spoke of until chapter 15! Did you not notice that the beheaded do not show up in heaven until chapter 15?

There will be only two groups that will be too large to number at the end of this age: the raptured church (perhaps 50 generations of belivers so in the billions) and then later the raptured OLD TESTAMENT saints (Not shown to John so not in Revelation) when they are resurrected (at the 7th vial).

iamlamad said:

You see, John has not yet even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the second half of the week where the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will take place.

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Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for about 7 years, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles. This was the 70th week of Daniel, during the first century.

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then he failed to even mention the New Covenant?

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

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BABerean2 said:

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for about 7 years, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles. This was the 70th week of Daniel, during the first century.

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then he failed to even mention the New Covenant?
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Ha ha ha ha ha! Thanks for a good laugh!

iamlamad said:

Ha ha ha ha ha! Thanks for a good laugh!

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If you do not know the answer to the question, just say so.
Nobody here is going to laugh at you.

"Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then he failed to even mention the New Covenant?"

See Matthew 26:28, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24, if you need some help.

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