The Normalizing Of Bastard Children

dqhall · Oct 4, 2019

Daniel C said:
Well everyone so far seems to have understood that a bastard child is one born out of wedlock. And I explained at the start of the thread with scripture.

Olympic gold medal winner Michael Phelps was raised by a single mother. Obama was raised by his grandparents. Steve Jobs was adopted and never met his biological father.

Paul was arresting Christians and voted for their execution. He was called by God to repent and planted churches around the Mediterranean, including at Corinth. One of questionable parentage may have a chance in Jesus.

Pádraigín Ní Saorlaith · Oct 4, 2019

Daniel C said:
Well everyone so far seems to have understood that a bastard child is one born out of wedlock. And I explained at the start of the thread with scripture.

Daniel C said:
Why is it appalling?

What is appalling?

Specifically, the issue a lot of us have is the phrasing of your initial question—"Are Bastard Children Acceptable?"

At first glance, the tone comes across as asking if it is acceptable for people born out of wedlock to exist, rather than asking if it is acceptable for professing Christians to purposefully have children outside of wedlock (I'm assuming that's what you're meaning to ask). The phrasing of the poll would seem to echo the former interpretation rather than the latter, and it isn't until the second to last sentence of your OP that you clarify what exactly you meant to say.

There is also the matter that you described your wording as "God's wording". Deuteronomy 23:2 isn't strictly about people born out of wedlock, but children born/conceived in any relationship outside of what God has ordained as marriage, since the Hebrew word mamzer (which comes up in a few translations), isn't just restricted to illegitimate children, but extends to incestuous relationships as well. Other translations say "born of a forbidden marriage" (NIV), "born of a forbidden union" (ESV), or "one born of a prostitute" (Douay-Rheims, and the Vulgate uses a similar wording in Latin). So I wouldn't call "bastard" God's language in this instance. Mamzer (pl. mamzerim) is more technical, but it's arguably clearer and less emotionally-charged. (At least in a gentile context; I can't speak for Jewish contexts.)

In any case, thanks for clarifying that you weren't trying to attack the children. It's high time we as a society stop blaming people for the circumstances of their birth or conception.

Now as for the original question...

I do think God wants people to wait until marriage (marriage here being defined as the monogamous, loving, union of a man and a woman) to have sex.

That said, suppose a woman has a child out of wedlock and later becomes a Christian. I don't think she should be treated with scorn or shame by the community for having that child. Yes, she should have waited to have sex, but in the end, she made a positive choice. In a world where women dealing with unplanned pregnancies are often pressured into abortions, it's hard to make the right choice. Assuming her partner abandoned her, it's also hard to raise a child by oneself.
If she's still with her partner, then she should marry him so that they can better represent Christ and the Church to the world.

We also shouldn't be surprised to see non-believers being disobedient to God. They don't have the Holy Spirit to guide them, and there are some who don't know or understand God's Word.

So long story short, we shouldn't encourage people to have sex outside of marriage, but we shouldn't treat people differently due to sins that happened before they began following Christ.

Anguspure · Oct 4, 2019

Daniel C said:
Some people might complain about the word Bastard being used but I just want to say this is Gods language so it can never be unclean so please respect that. The problem is Christians have been influenced by the heathens of this world and been persuaded to abandon Gods clean sacred language. Here are some verses:

Deuteronomy 23 2
''A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.''

hebrews 12:7-8
''If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.''

So God clearly wants children to enter into the world in a certain manner. Just wandering if people here think having a Bastard child is acceptable or marriage before the child's birth is essential? The world keeps pushing for more and more of Gods will to be eliminated,please bear in mind this ultimately is an issue of how adults and potential parents conduct themselves,not an attack on children so curious how the forum felt on this issue. Thanks.

This is the problem when religion masquerades as the "will of God". Yes it is wrong for children to be conceived out of fornication. But this is not a Christian concept, any clown can see that broken families destroy lives.
But it is not the will of God that any person be demonised or down trodden because of the evil of the people who conceived them.
Calling any person unnaceptable because of things that have happened or are happening to them, in fact shows that the person doing the rejecting probably Fatherless. Certainly they are not acting in line with the will of the Father who Loves.

Daniel C · Oct 4, 2019

dqhall said:
Olympic gold medal winner Michael Phelps was raised by a single mother. Obama was raised by his grandparents. Steve Jobs was adopted and never met his biological father.

Paul was arresting Christians and voted for their execution. He was called by God to repent and planted churches around the Mediterranean, including at Corinth. One of questionable parentage may have a chance in Jesus.

Excellent points!

A person shouldn't need to rely on their grandparents or surrogate parents to raise them,they should have their own parents raise them. Of course there are situations where people need to step in and help but we are now seeing are trend of the family model being abandoned altogether.

When people don't even attempt to make a promise to do right by each other and make a commitment this will inevitably impact on the child,if it's unborn,and the plans aren't how God wants them,we know what that means.

ByTheSpirit · Oct 4, 2019

Daniel C said:
The purpose is to find out if forum members think it's acceptable to have bastard children or if they insist on being wed first. Just like I stated.

I don't think God will reject a person who was born out of wedlock,the law isn't aimed at the child,it's at the parents.

Well your OP and Poll question say otherwise. If that was your intent you worded it very poorly and I'd advise you to close the thread down and restate your question.

Daniel C · Oct 4, 2019

R. Genevieve said:
Specifically, the issue a lot of us have is the phrasing of your initial question—"Are Bastard Children Acceptable?"

At first glance, the tone comes across as asking if it is acceptable for people born out of wedlock to exist, rather than asking if it is acceptable for professing Christians to purposefully have children outside of wedlock (I'm assuming that's what you're meaning to ask). The phrasing of the poll would seem to echo the former interpretation rather than the latter, and it isn't until the second to last sentence of your OP that you clarify what exactly you meant to say.

There is also the matter that you described your wording as "God's wording". Deuteronomy 23:2 isn't strictly about people born out of wedlock, but children born/conceived in any relationship outside of what God has ordained as marriage, since the Hebrew word mamzer (which comes up in a few translations), isn't just restricted to illegitimate children, but extends to incestuous relationships as well. Other translations say "born of a forbidden marriage" (NIV), "born of a forbidden union" (ESV), or "one born of a prostitute" (Douay-Rheims, and the Vulgate uses a similar wording in Latin). So I wouldn't call "bastard" God's language in this instance. Mamzer (pl. mamzerim) is more technical, but it's arguably clearer and less emotionally-charged. (At least in a gentile context; I can't speak for Jewish contexts.)

In any case, thanks for clarifying that you weren't trying to attack the children. It's high time we as a society stop blaming people for the circumstances of their birth or conception.

Now as for the original question...

I do think God wants people to wait until marriage (marriage here being defined as the monogamous, loving, union of a man and a woman) to have sex.

That said, suppose a woman has a child out of wedlock and later becomes a Christian. I don't think she should be treated with scorn or shame by the community for having that child. Yes, she should have waited to have sex, but in the end, she made a positive choice. In a world where women dealing with unplanned pregnancies are often pressured into abortions, it's hard to make the right choice. Assuming her partner abandoned her, it's also hard to raise a child by oneself.
If she's still with her partner, then she should marry him so that they can better represent Christ and the Church to the world.

We also shouldn't be surprised to see non-believers being disobedient to God. They don't have the Holy Spirit to guide them, and there are some who don't know or understand God's Word.

So long story short, we shouldn't encourage people to have sex outside of marriage, but we shouldn't treat people differently due to sins that happened before they began following Christ.

The wording of the poll would be tricky no matter what I put but yeah maybe it could have been worded better. Maybe people instead of being angry could show the fruit of the sprit-temperance. Thanks for the feed back though and not shouting.

To be honest I just saw your post making excuses for fornication. Like better children to be born than aborted, yes of course but if you do have a "unplanned pregnancy" and Mr E disappears never seen to again after you both had your fun,don't complain if get the title of harlot and the child a bastard.

It's only right because you did it to yourself. Amen?

Daniel C · Oct 4, 2019

ByTheSpirit said:
Well your OP and Poll question say otherwise. If that was your intent you worded it very poorly and I'd advise you to close the thread down and restate your question.

Ok how would you word the questions?

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 4, 2019

Daniel C said:
It's only right because you did it to yourself. Amen?

No.
This is called, many times, an attitude of "blaming the victim" , instead of finding the truth each time.

bekkilyn · Oct 4, 2019

Perez, the son of Judah and Tamar, was born out of wedlock, and was an ancestor in the line of Jesus, who one might do well to remember, was also conceived out of wedlock, Son of God notwithstanding.

friend of · Oct 4, 2019

Daniel C said:
don't complain if get the title of harlot and the child a bastard

Wow. I don't want to point fault and pick on people, but we shouldn't be telling women that they deserve to be called harlots either even if they did happen to conceive out of wedlock...

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 4, 2019

re the title: Can or should ANY child be "NORMALIZED" ?! Since most children are sinful and unclean, what would a "normalized" child be then ?

Daniel C · Oct 4, 2019

friend of said:
Wow. I don't want to point fault and pick on people, but we shouldn't be telling women that they deserve to be called harlots either even if they did happen to conceive out of wedlock...

I will add that the guy shares responsibility too,however.

harlot is a Biblical term. I hold the Bible as my authority and Gods language as clean.

You have an objection to this?

CharismaticLady · Oct 4, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
What is written in Scripture ? It mentions which children being unclean in at least one place.
It might or might not say concerning a parent who becomes saved in the future.

I Corinthians 7:14 is the only verse I can think of, but it doesn't mention abortion. Do you know of another verse?

St_Worm2 · Oct 4, 2019

Daniel C said:
Some people might complain about the word Bastard being used but I just want to say this is Gods language so it can never be unclean so please respect that. The problem is Christians have been influenced by the heathens of this world and been persuaded to abandon Gods clean sacred language. Here are some verses:

Deuteronomy 23 2
''A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.''

hebrews 12:7-8
''If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.''

So God clearly wants children to enter into the world in a certain manner. Just wandering if people here think having a Bastard child is acceptable or marriage before the child's birth is essential? The world keeps pushing for more and more of Gods will to be eliminated,please bear in mind this ultimately is an issue of how adults and potential parents conduct themselves,not an attack on children so curious how the forum felt on this issue. Thanks.

BLIND POST - I am making a quick post here. I apologize if this has already been discussed.

Matthew 1
1 The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers.
3 Judah was the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez was the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram.
4 Ram was the father of Amminadab, Amminadab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon.
5 Salmon was the father of Boaz by Rahab, Boaz was the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse.
6 Jesse was the father of David the king.
David was the father of Solomon by Bathsheba who had been the wife of Uriah.
7 Solomon was the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, and Abijah the father of Asa.
8 Asa was the father of Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzziah.
9 Uzziah was the father of Jotham, Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezekiah.
10 Hezekiah was the father of Manasseh, Manasseh the father of Amon, and Amon the father of Josiah.
11 Josiah became the father of Jeconiah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.
12 After the deportation to Babylon: Jeconiah became the father of Shealtiel, and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel.
13 Zerubbabel was the father of Abihud, Abihud the father of Eliakim, and Eliakim the father of Azor.
14 Azor was the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud.
15 Eliud was the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob.
16 Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; from David to the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations; and from the deportation to Babylon to the Messiah, fourteen generations.

The Messianic line is hardly free from sinful people and relationships. Take note of three of them in particular (in bold above). Granted, Rahab the Harlot married Salmon, and David was finally married to Bathsheba when she gave birth to Solomon, but Judah was (of course) ~never~ married to his daughter-in-law, Tamar, who bore him twins, out-of-wedlock, one of whom is Perez (who is part of the Messianic line).

--David

Daniel C · Oct 4, 2019

St_Worm2 said:
BLIND POST - I am making a quick post here. I apologize if this has already been discussed.

Matthew 1
1 The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers.
3 Judah was the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez was the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram.
4 Ram was the father of Amminadab, Amminadab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon.
5 Salmon was the father of Boaz by Rahab, Boaz was the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse.
6 Jesse was the father of David the king.
David was the father of Solomon by Bathsheba who had been the wife of Uriah.
7 Solomon was the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, and Abijah the father of Asa.
8 Asa was the father of Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzziah.
9 Uzziah was the father of Jotham, Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezekiah.
10 Hezekiah was the father of Manasseh, Manasseh the father of Amon, and Amon the father of Josiah.
11 Josiah became the father of Jeconiah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.
12 After the deportation to Babylon: Jeconiah became the father of Shealtiel, and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel.
13 Zerubbabel was the father of Abihud, Abihud the father of Eliakim, and Eliakim the father of Azor.
14 Azor was the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud.
15 Eliud was the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob.
16 Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; from David to the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations; and from the deportation to Babylon to the Messiah, fourteen generations.

The Messianic line is hardly free from sinful people and relationships. Take note of three of them in particular (in bold above). Granted, Rahab the Harlot married Salmon, and David was finally married to Bathsheba when she gave birth to Solomon, but Judah was (of course) ~never~ married to his daughter-in-law, Tamar, who bore him twins, out-of-wedlock, one of whom is Perez (who is part of the Messianic line).

--David

Ok David you answer me this.

If all that your saying is accurate then why did God say in Deuteronomy he doesn't accept bastard children?

Maria Billingsley · Oct 4, 2019

Daniel C said:
Some people might complain about the word Bastard being used but I just want to say this is Gods language so it can never be unclean so please respect that. The problem is Christians have been influenced by the heathens of this world and been persuaded to abandon Gods clean sacred language. Here are some verses:

Deuteronomy 23 2
''A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.''

hebrews 12:7-8
''If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.''

So God clearly wants children to enter into the world in a certain manner. Just wandering if people here think having a Bastard child is acceptable or marriage before the child's birth is essential? The world keeps pushing for more and more of Gods will to be eliminated,please bear in mind this ultimately is an issue of how adults and potential parents conduct themselves,not an attack on children so curious how the forum felt on this issue. Thanks.

I think you left off one other choice, which is my vote.
Yes. God loves all His children regardless of how they came into being.

St_Worm2 · Oct 4, 2019

Daniel C said:
Ok David you answer me this.

If all that your saying is accurate then why did God say in Deuteronomy he doesn't accept bastard children?

Hi Daniel, I believe the Gospel of Matthew did all the talking, not me, yes

--David
p.s. - I'll take a look at Deuteronomy and get back to you.

Daniel C · Oct 4, 2019

Maria Billingsley said:
I think you left off one other choice, which is my vote.
Yes. God loves all His children regardless of how they came into being.

Very sweet,very touching.

I will not be adding that option.

This is to do with parents choice actually.

As a sidenote-this thread has been a lot busier than I anticipated!

friend of · Oct 4, 2019

Daniel C said:
harlot is a Biblical term. I hold the Bible as my authority and Gods language as clean.

You have an objection to this?

Most people use that word as derogatory even though its found in the bible. It's a derogatory term even in the bible.

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 4, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
I Corinthians 7:14 is the only verse I can think of, but it doesn't mention abortion. Do you know of another verse?

Why would it mention abortion ?

1 Corinthians 7:14 - For the unbelieving husband has been ...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7:14
1 Corinthians 7:14 New International Version (NIV) 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

Daniel C · Oct 4, 2019

friend of said:
Most people use that word as derogatory even though its found in the bible. It's a derogatory term even in the bible.

But it's in the Bible and it's Gods word. So what authority do you have to censor it?

The Normalizing Of Bastard Children

Are Bastard children acceptable?

Yes, I had some

yes,people can do what that want even if it opposes Gods law

Not sure

No. All my kids are Blessed (Born in wedlock)

No,Gods will is for children to be born in wedlock.

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