No one ever went to heaven during OT times.

Quasar92

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1. Jesus made the following remark before he was crucified in: Jn.3:13 NIV: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man." With the two exceptions of Enoch and Elijah who weere both translated to heaven, according to Gen.5:21-24 and 2 Kgs.2:11.

2. As He said in: Jn.6:46 NIV: "No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only He has seen the Father."

3. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Lk.16:22-26 NIV, is a perfect profile of OT Sheol that reveals both the righteous and the wicked going there in spirit after their physical death. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus [the beggar] by his side. So he called to him, 'father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue.'"

"But Abrahan replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is conforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'"

4. The reason for 3. above is because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins as recorded in Heb.10:4 NIV.

5. Number 4. above reinforced by Paul in Rom.3:25-26 NIV. "God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood. He did this to denonstrate His justice, because in His forbearance, He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. He did it to demonstrate His justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

6. Jesus introduced the New Covenant of Grace as recorded in Lk.22:20 NIV, opening the door to salvation for all, both Jews and Gentiles. "...This cup is the New Covenant in my blood, whichn is poured out for you."

7. After Jesus shed His blood and died on the cross, as recorded in Lk.23:46 NIV, the disposition of where everyone goes who receive Jesus as Lord and Savior since Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3 NIV, is found in 2 Cor.5:6-8 NIV, "absent from the body, present with the Lord," and in Phil.1:21-23 NIV, confirming Ecc.12:7 NIV.

8. So what happened to the OT righteous after Jesus shed His blood and died on the cross? Jesus went in Spirit to the prison [Sheol] and preached the Gospel to the all the OT righteous as well as the wicked during Noah's time, according to 1 Pet.3:18-20. As recorded in Isa.55:11 the word from the mouth of the Lord does not come back empty, but will accomplish His desire and achieve His purpose. Which I believe was the case here, giving an opportunity for all the OT righteous to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.

9. Jesus said in Jn.3:13: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man."

10. So when Jesus ascended, in Acts 1:9, He took all the OT righteous to heaven with Him, who were in Sheol and received Him, when He was there, in 1 Pet.3:18-20, according to Eph.4:7-10, fulfilling the prophecy in Ps.68:18.

11. As documented in Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:14-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8, when Jesus returns to rapture His Church, all the saints who previously died in Him, both OT and NT, return with Him from heaven when He returns to the earth in His second coming, at that time, according to Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14.

12. IMO: All the saints will be with Jesus during His Millennial reign here on the earth.


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stuart lawrence

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1. Jesus made the following remark before he was crucified in: Jn.3:13 NIV: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man." With the two exceptions of Enoch and Elijah who weere both translated to heaven, according to Gen.5:21-24 and 2 Kgs.2:11.

2. As He said in: Jn.6:46 NIV: "No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only He has seen the Father."

3. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Lk.16:22-26 NIV, is a perfect profile of OT Sheol that reveals both the righteous and the wicked going there in spirit after their physical death. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus [the beggar] by his side. So he called to him, 'father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue.'"

"But Abrahan replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is conforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'"

4. The reason for 3. above is because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins as recorded in Heb.10:4 NIV.

5. Number 4. above reinforced by Paul in Rom.3:25-26 NIV. "God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood. He did this to denonstrate His justice, because in His forbearance, He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. He did it to demonstrate His justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

6. Jesus introduced the New Covenant of Grace as recorded in Lk.22:20 NIV, opening the door to salvation for all, both Jews and Gentiles. "...This cup is the New Covenant in my blood, whichn is poured out for you."

7. After Jesus shed His blood and died on the cross, as recorded in Lk.23:46 NIV, the disposition of where everyone goes who receive Jesus as Lord and Savior since Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3 NIV, is found in 2 Cor.5:6-8 NIV, "absent from the body, present with the Lord," and in Phil.1:21-23 NIV, confirming Ecc.12:7 NIV.

8. So what happened to the OT righteous after Jesus shed His blood and died on the cross? Jesus went in Spirit to the prison [Sheol] and preached the Gospel to the all the OT righteous as well as the wicked during Noah's time, according to 1 Pet.3:18-20. As recorded in Isa.55:11 the word from the mouth of the Lord does not come back empty, but will accomplish His desire and achieve His purpose. Which I believe was the case here, giving an opportunity for all the OT righteous to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.

9. Jesus said in Jn.3:13: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man."

10. So when Jesus ascended, in Acts 1:9, He took all the OT righteous to heaven with Him, who were in Sheol and received Him, when He was there, in 1 Pet.3:18-20, according to Eph.4:7-10, fulfilling the prophecy in Ps.68:18.

11. As documented in Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:14-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8, when Jesus returns to rapture His Church, all the saints who previously died in Him, both OT and NT, return with Him from heaven when He returns to the earth in His second coming, at that time, according to Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14.

12. IMO: All the saints will be with Jesus during His Millennial reign here on the earth.


Quasar02
No one means exactly what it says: NO ONE.
My Bible doesn't say Enoch was taken straight to heaven, are you sure yours does?
Concerning Elijah. Don't build a doctrine on one verse of scripture, especially as it contradicts Christ's words:
NO ONE has ever entered Heaven, except the one who came from Heven, the Son of man.
Paul said he went to the THIRD Heaven. So biblcally speaking, more than one place is referred to as heaven.
Safe to assume concerning Elijah, he went to the heaven of paradise. Now scripture doesn't contradict itself
 
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imsaneru

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Yeah I think the idea of going to heaven when we die seems to be a little sus , I mean if a mother of teenagers was to die and go to heaven then she is not going to be very happy up there , she is going to be very concerned about her kids back here on earth and no amount of telling her to just chill out and learn to play the harp is going to turn her on at all.
On the other hand death does seem to have it's place , given that there is no time in death one could die and be dead for a thousand years and wake up to a resurrection in what would almost seem like only a few seconds had passed. So that mother with the teenagers would not have to stress out and being rebellious and refusing to learn to play the harp, she would simply be dead and without knowledge of her children until the resurrection.
 
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Quasar92

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No one means exactly what it says: NO ONE.
My Bible doesn't say Enoch was taken straight to heaven, are you sure yours does?
Concerning Elijah. Don't build a doctrine on one verse of scripture, especially as it contradicts Christ's words:
NO ONE has ever entered Heaven, except the one who came from Heven, the Son of man.
Paul said he went to the THIRD Heaven. So biblcally speaking, more than one place is referred to as heaven.
Safe to assume concerning Elijah, he went to the heaven of paradise. Now scripture doesn't contradict itself


The Scriptures clearly tell us all believers go to heaven after their physical death, as documented below. There is no reason to believe the same to be true in the case of both Enoch and Elijah.

Believers go to heaven

2 Cor.5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." [Confirming Ecc.12:7]

Ecc.12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

1 Thess.4:13Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Jesus returns from heaven WITH all those who previously died in Him, in 1 Thess.4:16, as recorded in verse 14 above.

1 Thess.4:16 "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words."


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stuart lawrence

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The Scriptures clearly tell us all believers go to heaven after their physical death, as documented below. There is no reason to believe the same to be true in the case of both Enoch and Elijah.

Believers go to heaven



2 Cor.5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." [Confirming Ecc.12:7]

Ecc.12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

1 Thess.4:13Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Jesus returns from heaven WITH all those who previously died in Him, in 1 Thess.4:16, as recorded in verse 14 above.


Quasar92
Believers await the resurrection of the dead which takes place in the last day of this present earth. Hence:
For my father's will is that everyone who looks to the son and believes in him shall have eternal life. And I will raise him up ON THE LAST DAY
John6:40

Immediately after the last day the old earth and the old heaven pass away for there will be a new heaven, the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven. Then, and not before God will dwell with his people( rev21:1-3)
 
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Quasar92

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Believers await the resurrection of the dead which takes place in the last day of this present earth. Hence:
For my father's will is that everyone who looks to the son and believes in him shall have eternal life. And I will raise him up ON THE LAST DAY
John6:40

Immediately after the last day the old earth and the old heaven pass away for there will be a new heaven, the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven. Then, and not before God will dwell with his people( rev21:1-3)


Why 1 Thess.4:16 is not a resurrection

The statement by Paul in 1 Thess.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first," does not mean a resurrection is about to occur. Because they were all raised once before, as those who die in Christ, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, and as FIRSTFRUITS, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. Who will return with Jesus when He comes with them from heaven, according to vs 14. If Paul meant it was to be a resurrection, he would have documented it as one, which he did not do. Jesus advised John, the resurrection in Rev.20:4, of the tribulation martyrs/saints, is the FIRST resurrection. Which does not take place until seven years AFTER the events of 1 Thess.4:16.

1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ to the earth, as documented in Mt.24:30; Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, when the Pre-trib raptured Church RETURNS WITH CHRIST!

But rather than meaning it to be a resurrection, it was the third of Paul's assurances to the Thessalonians, that all the members of their church, who had already died in Christ, would not miss the pre-trib rapture of the Church he was teaching them about.

The first of Paul's three assurances begins in vs 13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep [die], or to grieve like the rest of men [non-believers], who have no hope." [Parenthetics mine].

Then he followed up his first assurance to them that all those who had previously died in Christ would be together with them at the rapture of the Church in the very next verse [14]: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." Revealing to them, that Christ had previously raised them all once before, as documented in 2 Cor.5:6-8, and had been in heaven with Him ever since. Since all the dead in Christ have been raised once before, there is no reason for them having to be raised a second time. Confirming their status as FIRSTFRUITS, raised each in his own order, according to 1 Cor.15:23.

There will not be any resurrected then, because all their dead in Christ had already been raised once before, in their spiritual bodies [As recorded in 1 Cor.15:44], following the death of their bodies, when they immediately went to be with Christ in heaven. Confirming Ecc.12:7 as well as 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirmed in 1 Thes.4:14, saying they are returning with Christ, when He returns, from heaven with them. Therefore, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky for all those who belong to Him left here on earth alive, they will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [together with those who previously died in Him, who are already there].

The second of Paul's three assurances to the Thessalonians, was that their dead in Christ will not miss the rapture of the Church is in vs 15, which states: "According to the Lord's own word [Recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are left [Believers] till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep [Died]." Of course not! Because they will have already been raised once before, and gone to be with the Lord in heaven in their spiritual bodies, and then return with Him when He comes from heaven! They certainly do not need a resurrection, because they are going to the spiritual world in heaven. In contrast to the glorified physical bodies that will be necessary at the time of the resurrection documented in Rev.20:4 and 6. Because they are to be priests of God and rule with Jesus for 1,000 years right here on the earth, in a human environment! [Parenthetics mine].

The third and final assurance Paul wrote in vs 16, the subject of this thread, has already been addressed above.

There is also the false view by those, who attempt to make 1 Thes.4:16-17 a reference to the first resurrection in Rev.20:4 and 6, at the second coming of Christ, which does not take place until seven years later. Which is not possible, because after we [All believers] have been CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, we will go to be with our Father in heaven, as Jesus promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. Seven years after that, we will all return with Christ, from heaven, at His second coming to the earth, as recorded in Rev.19:14, Zech.14:4-5 and in Jude 14.

Nowhere in the Bible is there a single passage of anyone called up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, when He returns in His second coming to the earth! Because the first of many things He will do, is in fighting the Antichrist, the false prophet and their ten nations allied to them, in the battle of Armageddon and defeating them, the forces of evil, according to Rev.19:11-20. Then in setting up His Millennial Kingdom here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. He does not return to heaven from that time on until the present heaven and earth is destroyed and a new heaven and earth is created by God in Rev.21:1.

The precise timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church is recorded in 2 Thes.2:1-8, in which the theme of it begins in the first verse: Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our being gathered to Him..., which is a clear reference to 1 Thes.4:17, where Paul stated that we will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky.

In 2 Thess.2:3 he made this statement according to the original translation: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, from vs 2, the seven year tribulation] will not come until the apostasiaGreek term meaning departure [When we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky] occurs [first] and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction." The same vile person in vs 4 who abominates the temple of God and sets himself up as God.

The following is the translation history of the Greek term apostasia and the Latin term discessio Jerome translated apostasia as, in 325 A.D.

Translation History of apostasia and Discessio:

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384 A.D.); Tyndale Bible (1526 A.D.); Coverdale Bible (1535 A.D.); Cranmer Bible (1539 A.D.); Breeches Bible (1576 A.D.); Beza Bible (1583 A.D.); Geneva Bible (1608 A.D.) .[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' " Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.?

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No good reason was ever given. [Most likely because of the RCC Amillianial theology].
The difference between the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Christ

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, who is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27 and the abomination of desolation. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, which triggers the seven year tribulation, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.

There is no resemblance of Mt.24:30-31, or in any of the counterparts in Mk.13 and Lk.21 of the second coming of Christ, to the earth, to that of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, when Jesus gathers us all into the clouds of the sky and takes us from there to our Father in heaven, according to as Jesus, in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. And Paul in 1 Thes.4:14-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8. Confirming Dan.9:27. [The latter confirms who the antichrist is, his triggering the 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation and the timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as confirmed by Paul in 2 Thes.2:1-8].

In Mt.24:30-31, Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth for a number of reasons [to fight the battle of armageddon and defeat the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten nation confederation allied to them, in Rev.19:17-20. He does not gather anyone to Himself in the clouds of the sky, nor does He return to heaven with them!
But rather, to save the remnant of Israel, in Zech.14, to throw Satan into the Abyss for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3, to administer to the first resurrection, in Rev.20:4 and 6], and to establish His 1,000 year reign on the earth.

There are no saints meeting Him in the clouds of the sky, nor does He return to heaven with the saints to our Father in heaven as He promises us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. In addition to the fact the raptured saints are seen returning with Jesus and His angels [From Mt.24:30] in His second coming to the earth in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, in His armies from heaven, ridiing white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. ["Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints," Rev.19:8 NIV].

The Scriptures clearly teach there is going to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church!

All parenthetics mine.


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stuart lawrence

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Why 1 Thess.4:16 is not a resurrection

The statement by Paul in 1 Thess.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first," does not mean a resurrection is about to occur. Because they were all raised once before, as those who die in Christ, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, and as FIRSTFRUITS, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. Who will return with Jesus when He comes with them from heaven, according to vs 14. If Paul meant it was to be a resurrection, he would have documented it as one, which he did not do. Jesus advised John, the resurrection in Rev.20:4, of the tribulation martyrs/saints, is the FIRST resurrection. Which does not take place until seven years AFTER the events of 1 Thess.4:16.

1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ to the earth, as documented in Mt.24:30; Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, when the Pre-trib raptured Church RETURNS WITH CHRIST!

But rather than meaning it to be a resurrection, it was the third of Paul's assurances to the Thessalonians, that all the members of their church, who had already died in Christ, would not miss the pre-trib rapture of the Church he was teaching them about.

The first of Paul's three assurances begins in vs 13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep [die], or to grieve like the rest of men [non-believers], who have no hope." [Parenthetics mine].

Then he followed up his first assurance to them that all those who had previously died in Christ would be together with them at the rapture of the Church in the very next verse [14]: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." Revealing to them, that Christ had previously raised them all once before, as documented in 2 Cor.5:6-8, and had been in heaven with Him ever since. Since all the dead in Christ have been raised once before, there is no reason for them having to be raised a second time. Confirming their status as FIRSTFRUITS, raised each in his own order, according to 1 Cor.15:23.

There will not be any resurrected then, because all their dead in Christ had already been raised once before, in their spiritual bodies [As recorded in 1 Cor.15:44], following the death of their bodies, when they immediately went to be with Christ in heaven. Confirming Ecc.12:7 as well as 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirmed in 1 Thes.4:14, saying they are returning with Christ, when He returns, from heaven with them. Therefore, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky for all those who belong to Him left here on earth alive, they will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [together with those who previously died in Him, who are already there].

The second of Paul's three assurances to the Thessalonians, was that their dead in Christ will not miss the rapture of the Church is in vs 15, which states: "According to the Lord's own word [Recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are left [Believers] till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep [Died]." Of course not! Because they will have already been raised once before, and gone to be with the Lord in heaven in their spiritual bodies, and then return with Him when He comes from heaven! They certainly do not need a resurrection, because they are going to the spiritual world in heaven. In contrast to the glorified physical bodies that will be necessary at the time of the resurrection documented in Rev.20:4 and 6. Because they are to be priests of God and rule with Jesus for 1,000 years right here on the earth, in a human environment! [Parenthetics mine].

The third and final assurance Paul wrote in vs 16, the subject of this thread, has already been addressed above.

There is also the false view by those, who attempt to make 1 Thes.4:16-17 a reference to the first resurrection in Rev.20:4 and 6, at the second coming of Christ, which does not take place until seven years later. Which is not possible, because after we [All believers] have been CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, we will go to be with our Father in heaven, as Jesus promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. Seven years after that, we will all return with Christ, from heaven, at His second coming to the earth, as recorded in Rev.19:14, Zech.14:4-5 and in Jude 14.

Nowhere in the Bible is there a single passage of anyone called up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, when He returns in His second coming to the earth! Because the first of many things He will do, is in fighting the Antichrist, the false prophet and their ten nations allied to them, in the battle of Armageddon and defeating them, the forces of evil, according to Rev.19:11-20. Then in setting up His Millennial Kingdom here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. He does not return to heaven from that time on until the present heaven and earth is destroyed and a new heaven and earth is created by God in Rev.21:1.

The precise timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church is recorded in 2 Thes.2:1-8, in which the theme of it begins in the first verse: Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our being gathered to Him..., which is a clear reference to 1 Thes.4:17, where Paul stated that we will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky.

In 2 Thess.2:3 he made this statement according to the original translation: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, from vs 2, the seven year tribulation] will not come until the apostasiaGreek term meaning departure [When we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky] occurs [first] and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction." The same vile person in vs 4 who abominates the temple of God and sets himself up as God.

The following is the translation history of the Greek term apostasia and the Latin term discessio Jerome translated apostasia as, in 325 A.D.

Translation History of apostasia and Discessio:

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384 A.D.); Tyndale Bible (1526 A.D.); Coverdale Bible (1535 A.D.); Cranmer Bible (1539 A.D.); Breeches Bible (1576 A.D.); Beza Bible (1583 A.D.); Geneva Bible (1608 A.D.) .[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' " Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.?

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No good reason was ever given. [Most likely because of the RCC Amillianial theology].
The difference between the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Christ

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, who is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27 and the abomination of desolation. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, which triggers the seven year tribulation, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.

There is no resemblance of Mt.24:30-31, or in any of the counterparts in Mk.13 and Lk.21 of the second coming of Christ, to the earth, to that of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, when Jesus gathers us all into the clouds of the sky and takes us from there to our Father in heaven, according to as Jesus, in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. And Paul in 1 Thes.4:14-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8. Confirming Dan.9:27. [The latter confirms who the antichrist is, his triggering the 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation and the timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as confirmed by Paul in 2 Thes.2:1-8].

In Mt.24:30-31, Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth for a number of reasons [to fight the battle of armageddon and defeat the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten nation confederation allied to them, in Rev.19:17-20. He does not gather anyone to Himself in the clouds of the sky, nor does He return to heaven with them!
But rather, to save the remnant of Israel, in Zech.14, to throw Satan into the Abyss for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3, to administer to the first resurrection, in Rev.20:4 and 6], and to establish His 1,000 year reign on the earth.

There are no saints meeting Him in the clouds of the sky, nor does He return to heaven with the saints to our Father in heaven as He promises us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. In addition to the fact the raptured saints are seen returning with Jesus and His angels [From Mt.24:30] in His second coming to the earth in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, in His armies from heaven, ridiing white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. ["Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints," Rev.19:8 NIV].

The Scriptures clearly teach there is going to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church!

All parenthetics mine.


Quasar92
Sorry, I don't read posts that long. I will leave you to your belief and I will keep mine
 
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parousia70

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One particular time, this one colored person......

Really?
It's 2017, not 1957 friend.

anyway long story short, euthanasia took place, and after that I continued with my routine in contacting the authorities for a few more weeks before I stopped, I believed everything was completed at that time..............

Who exactly did you euthanize?
Sounds like WE should be contacting the authorities...
 
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Erik Nelson

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No one means exactly what it says: NO ONE.
My Bible doesn't say Enoch was taken straight to heaven, are you sure yours does?
Concerning Elijah. Don't build a doctrine on one verse of scripture, especially as it contradicts Christ's words:
NO ONE has ever entered Heaven, except the one who came from Heven, the Son of man.
Paul said he went to the THIRD Heaven. So biblcally speaking, more than one place is referred to as heaven.
Safe to assume concerning Elijah, he went to the heaven of paradise. Now scripture doesn't contradict itself
John 3:13 says "no man has anabaino" = "no man has walked-up" to heaven

Only Christ "walked up" to heaven under His own active power, as Jesus said He could raise up his own bodily temple (John 2:19-21)

Enoch, Elijah & Mary were assumed into heaven -- drawn passively into heaven by God

Ascension (active) != Assumption (passive)
 
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Semper-Fi

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1. Jesus made the following remark before he was crucified in: Jn.3:13 NIV: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man."

With the two exceptions of Enoch and Elijah who weere both translated to heaven, according to Gen.5:21-24 and 2 Kgs.2:11.

Heaven Defined
(Gen. 2:1)“Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them” This word heavens refers to two different heavens.

The first heaven consists of the Earth’s atmosphere. The second heaven is
the vast space beyond the atmosphere.

There is also a third heaven: the home of God.
The Apostle Paul saw this “third heaven,”
where God’s throne is, in a vision ii Cor. 12:1-2

Heb. 4:14, the phrase “into the heavens,”
should be translated “through the heavens”

Jesus Christ passed through the first two heavens—Earth’s atmosphere and outer space—as He ascended to the third heaven.

Many have ascended to the first and second heavens by aircraft, spacecraft and other means.

Yes Elijah ascended to heaven,—but not to the third heaven. He was taken by chariots of fire up into the first heaven (ii Kings 2:11). The Hebrew word used for heaven here is the same as in Genesis 2:1.

Elijah did not die during this event. In fact, Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram years after this event (ii Chron. 21:12). Elijah by a miracle, was transported to another location on Earth.

Enoch's Translation

"Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" (Gen. 5:24). He "was not found, because God had translated him" (Heb. 11:5).

The Bible does not say that Enoch went to heaven when he was translated. Instead it says he was not found.Certainly Enoch was "translated,"

This same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16. After Jacob died his body was "carried over" - transported, translated - to Sychem where he was buried!

Colossians 1:13 Here the Bible says
that Christians are already translated.

Enoch is included by Paul (in Hebrews 11) But "received not the promise" What promise? The "hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" (Titus 1:2).

Enoch and others of old will receive the promise of eternal life at the return of Christ, the same time Christians obtain it (Heb. 11:40)

"These all [including Enoch] died in faith." (Heb 11:1-12) The first death is appointed unto men (Heb. 9:27).

In John 8:51 Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death" - shall never see - that is, suffer - the second death! And again in John 11:26, "Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" - or "shall not die forever."

It is not in the past tense, that he "did not see" death - but that he"should not see death."The death which Enoch will escape is the second death which will ever touch those who are in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6).

Enoch Walked With God (Gen. 5:22)
He also prophesied of the coming of Christ to execute judgment and to convict the ungodly (Jude 14-15). He was in effect a "preacher of righteousness" (compare II Peter 2:5).

"all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years" If Enoch did not die - if he were changed to immortality - and thus continued to walk with God, then his days would have been more than three hundred and sixty-five years.

Clearly Enoch died a premature death! I believe Enoch was martered, Enoch undoubtedly convicted and enraged many by his message. Enoch died a young man in those days.

Why Lamech's Boast?
"I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt. If Cain be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold" (Gen. 4:23-24).

The "man"was Cain. Hence Lamech's reference to the fact that God would take vengeance on anyone who dared to murder Cain.

Also Lamech (by himself or with a mob) stilled Enoch's voice by murder. The bible is full of prophets being slain for there message from God.

2. As He said in: Jn.6:46 NIV: "No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only He has seen the Father."

I think we should believe a direct
statement from our Lord Jesus.
This should not conflict other scriptures.
 
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