Faith & Duty

mindlight said:

Which bit was Kierkegaard?

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Fear and Trembling. Kierkegaard had a book by that title. My bad, I guess Paul may have used it first in Philippians 2. Anyway, don't mind me.

mindlight said:

Have to preach this Sunday on this theme.
1) What is faith? (Heb 11)
2) What is duty?
3) How to they work together, do they conflict or complement

I was thinking about the example of Bonhoeffer. Did he show a lack of faith and a failure of duty attempting to assassinate Hitler for instance. His attempt seemed to contradict Romans 13:1-7 which implies that we trust in God no matter how bad the authorities and should carry out the duties we have been given in the place we have been assigned them respecting the insitu authorities even if they are Nero himself. BY this reckoning German soldiers, high on Pervitin, are not guilty for fighting for Germany in WW2 but maybe they were guilty if they murdered people in cold blood even under orders. Are there orders therefore that you should refuse.

Did the fact that many soldiers were on drugs to enhance their performance diminish their moral responsibility in carrying out the duties defined by their commanders. Can a person see God clearly when high.
The Nazi Death Machine: Hitler's Drugged Soldiers - SPIEGEL ONLINE - International

Also the American revolution seems quite faithless and Americans had a duty to the King which they failed in.

It is hard to think of roles where our faith and the duties which we are given will not sometimes contradict. How should we deal with these situations. Does it come down to selective obedience to earthly authorities and total obedience to our heavenly Father even if it costs us our lives in this earth?

It seems faith in God can and should make us very unpopular sometimes and our duties to God can sometimes contradict our duties to worldly authorities with deadly consequences for us.

Luke 17:5-10
The apostles said to the LORD, "Increase our faith!" 6He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you. 7"Suppose one of you has a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Will he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? 8Won't he rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? 9Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty

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I believe faith is our response to the truth that God reveals to us. Our duty is to embrace that truth and live in it regardless of the consequences. Therefore, they complement each other.

mindlight said:

Have to preach this Sunday on this theme.
1) What is faith? (Heb 11)
2) What is duty?
3) How to they work together, do they conflict or complement

I was thinking about the example of Bonhoeffer. Did he show a lack of faith and a failure of duty attempting to assassinate Hitler for instance. His attempt seemed to contradict Romans 13:1-7 which implies that we trust in God no matter how bad the authorities and should carry out the duties we have been given in the place we have been assigned them respecting the insitu authorities even if they are Nero himself. BY this reckoning German soldiers, high on Pervitin, are not guilty for fighting for Germany in WW2 but maybe they were guilty if they murdered people in cold blood even under orders. Are there orders therefore that you should refuse.

Did the fact that many soldiers were on drugs to enhance their performance diminish their moral responsibility in carrying out the duties defined by their commanders. Can a person see God clearly when high.
The Nazi Death Machine: Hitler's Drugged Soldiers - SPIEGEL ONLINE - International

Also the American revolution seems quite faithless and Americans had a duty to the King which they failed in.

It is hard to think of roles where our faith and the duties which we are given will not sometimes contradict. How should we deal with these situations. Does it come down to selective obedience to earthly authorities and total obedience to our heavenly Father even if it costs us our lives in this earth?

It seems faith in God can and should make us very unpopular sometimes and our duties to God can sometimes contradict our duties to worldly authorities with deadly consequences for us.

Luke 17:5-10
The apostles said to the LORD, "Increase our faith!" 6He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you. 7"Suppose one of you has a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Will he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? 8Won't he rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? 9Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty

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Faith comes from hearing the word. If you cannot find a specific duty in scripture, it becomes sin when acted upon. Whatever is not of faith is sin.

mindlight said:

That sounds a little lacking in context. I am a person of a certain gender, living in a certain place, with certain education and advantages , with a twenty first century understanding of technology and science. Working with computers is not in the bible and neither is brain surgery or research into tropical disease cure and prevention, are you saying that anybody who feels that IT, or Brain Surgery or Disease Research are the kinds of jobs they are called into are sinning. Surely a calling includes a specific area of expertise, a particular family or even nation that may not have any mention in scripture. We draw principles from scripture which we apply to these callings and areas and they are not made sin simply cause they are not mentioned.

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Paul teaches whatever is not of faith is sin. So even a brain surgeon is sinning if they do not depend on God for his blessing. And realize any success is due to him.


“And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.” Acts 12:23 (KJV 1900)

mindlight said:

1) What is faith? (Heb 11)

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I heard the following definition of faith many years ago and have never forgot it:

Faith is believing a thing is so,
When it appears it is not so,
In order for it to be so,
Because it is so.

mindlight said:

2) What is duty?
3

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A responsibility one believes one is obligated to fulfill.

mindlight said:

3) How to they work together, do they conflict or complement

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The First and Great Commandment is not to be dutiful in one's walk with God but to love Him with all of one's being. (Matthew 22:36-38) One does not need a sense of duty motivating one's life as a believer if one is obeying the First and Great Commandment. In fact, it seems that Scripture rules out any motive but love for the believer's righteous living (1 Corinthians 13:1-3; 1 John 4:16-19)

mindlight said:

I was thinking about the example of Bonhoeffer. Did he show a lack of faith and a failure of duty attempting to assassinate Hitler for instance. His attempt seemed to contradict Romans 13:1-7

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And what about Acts 5:29?

mindlight said:

Are there orders therefore that you should refuse.

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Absolutely. See above.

mindlight said:

Did the fact that many soldiers were on drugs to enhance their performance diminish their moral responsibility in carrying out the duties defined by their commanders.

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No.

mindlight said:

Can a person see God clearly when high.

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I very much doubt it. But unless one has been forced to be high, one is culpable both for being high and for the behaviour arising from such a condition.

mindlight said:

Also the American revolution seems quite faithless and Americans had a duty to the King which they failed in.

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What duty are you thinking of? How would they be beholden to the king of England in a country he did not clearly rule?

mindlight said:

It is hard to think of roles where our faith and the duties which we are given will not sometimes contradict. How should we deal with these situations. Does it come down to selective obedience to earthly authorities and total obedience to our heavenly Father even if it costs us our lives in this earth?

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Yup. I would never abort a baby, even if the government told me I had to; I would not promote atheism, even if the government commanded me to do so; I would not deny my faith though the government was insisting that I should. I ought to obey God rather than men.

mindlight said:

Have to preach this Sunday on this theme.
1) What is faith? (Heb 11)
2) What is duty?
3) How to they work together, do they conflict or complement

I was thinking about the example of Bonhoeffer. Did he show a lack of faith and a failure of duty attempting to assassinate Hitler for instance. His attempt seemed to contradict Romans 13:1-7 which implies that we trust in God no matter how bad the authorities and should carry out the duties we have been given in the place we have been assigned them respecting the insitu authorities even if they are Nero himself. BY this reckoning German soldiers, high on Pervitin, are not guilty for fighting for Germany in WW2 but maybe they were guilty if they murdered people in cold blood even under orders. Are there orders therefore that you should refuse.

Did the fact that many soldiers were on drugs to enhance their performance diminish their moral responsibility in carrying out the duties defined by their commanders. Can a person see God clearly when high.
The Nazi Death Machine: Hitler's Drugged Soldiers - SPIEGEL ONLINE - International

Also the American revolution seems quite faithless and Americans had a duty to the King which they failed in.

It is hard to think of roles where our faith and the duties which we are given will not sometimes contradict. How should we deal with these situations. Does it come down to selective obedience to earthly authorities and total obedience to our heavenly Father even if it costs us our lives in this earth?

It seems faith in God can and should make us very unpopular sometimes and our duties to God can sometimes contradict our duties to worldly authorities with deadly consequences for us.

Luke 17:5-10
The apostles said to the LORD, "Increase our faith!" 6He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you. 7"Suppose one of you has a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Will he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? 8Won't he rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? 9Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty

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Hello, very good topic to preach about...just sharing my thoughts on the topic of faith and duty...
The faith taught in the bible is different to that of man because the faith in the bible is Jesus Christ..He is the embodiment or evident of faith in human form. As in Hebrews 11 define faith as "the substance of things hope for and the evidence of things not seen"...

Faith consists of two things (1) invisible (2)visible...
Eg, Jesus Christ was the Word (invisible ) become flesh (visible )...

So is the same as man...the Spirit (invisible )must grow within us in order for us to show (visible ) who the Spirit is...

So our Duty or actions (visible) is the expression of our belief (invisible )..that is faith in complete form..

mindlight said:

I like that rather idealised summary. But I suspect that actually our faith calling and the duties commensurate with it will often bring us into conflict with worldly authorities and powers and that we are forced to make hard choices between what others tell us is our duty and what we believe is our duty in those circumstances. But it may also be the case that when such conflicts arise they are of our own making and we have allowed our own rationalisations about our calling to cloud what God has actualy told us to focus on.

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Perhaps, but from my experience, most of the conflict I run into when it comes to the truth God has revealed to me comes from the so-called body of Christ. People love their beliefs more than they do the truth. You only need to look at this forum for example.

mindlight said:

So duty is contingent on believing that one should obey.

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Hmmm..."obey" what, exactly?

mindlight said:

I do not really love my boss but I will mainly do what he says. I see work as a part of my calling. So I obey for the love of God but that love may not necessarily be localised in my immediate dutiful actions.

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What do you mean by "love your boss"? There are various types of love: charis, eros, phileo, storge, agape. Do you care about your boss's eternal destiny? Do you have any concern that s/he would come to know Christ? Do you make any effort to be an ambassador for Christ in your relationship to your boss? If so, could such concern and witness be considered love?

mindlight said:

Specifically talking about evangelism or worship where a Christian can disobey the authorities in accordance with Gods will though they may be killed or imprisoned for doing so. But on most stuff God does not call us to be a vigilante.

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Well, Peter doesn't qualify his statement about obeying God rather than men as you have. We are given the context within which Peter was arrested, but I don't think the description of the circumstances of his arrest serve to proscribe all but evangelical or worship-oriented activities of believers that defy governmental authority.

mindlight said:

There is diminished responsibility when a person is high under orders

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It is difficult to see how such a defense would stand under divine scrutiny. I have a hard time imagining a war criminal standing before God saying, "I was under orders to be high on drugs when I murdered people. So, I'm not responsible for being a murderer."

mindlight said:

If he was not the ruler then who was. There are a lot of rationalisations after the event here. The American revolution worked out for the best in the long run but the US would probably have gotten its independence eventually anyway as did Canada and Australia.

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Some would argue that Canada and Australia achieved independence from Britain in no small part because of the independence from British rule the Americans won by force.

mindlight said:

It is clear that resisting bad laws is part of our duty. But proactively preventing another mother from aborting her child...not justifiable from Scripture.

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So, if you observed a woman on the street clearly about to stab her six month old baby with a knife, would you act to intervene? Or would you say to yourself, "It's okay. That woman has a right to kill her baby"? How does the same woman murdering her unborn baby inside a building alleviate you of the responsibility to intervene?

mindlight said:

refusing to pay taxes to fund abortions

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One ought not to refuse to pay any and all taxes on the grounds of wanting not to fund abortions, but one should most certainly stridently and persistently object to such tax funding and to press as hard as possible politically to end such funding.

mindlight said:

plotting rebellion against the state and vigilante terrorist actions

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What constitutes "rebellion against the state"? The State's definition and yours might differ widely. If you lived under the power of a murderous, oppressive, godless State that considered praying for its end an act of rebellion, would you cease to pray for such a thing? If the State regarded reading the Bible an act of rebellion, would you cease to read it? If the State held that sharing the Gospel with people was tantamount to plotting rebellion, would you cease to evangelize the lost?

mindlight said:

Have to preach this Sunday on this theme.
1) What is faith? (Heb 11)
2) What is duty?
3) How to they work together, do they conflict or complement

I was thinking about the example of Bonhoeffer. Did he show a lack of faith and a failure of duty attempting to assassinate Hitler for instance. His attempt seemed to contradict Romans 13:1-7 which implies that we trust in God no matter how bad the authorities and should carry out the duties we have been given in the place we have been assigned them respecting the insitu authorities even if they are Nero himself. BY this reckoning German soldiers, high on Pervitin, are not guilty for fighting for Germany in WW2 but maybe they were guilty if they murdered people in cold blood even under orders. Are there orders therefore that you should refuse.

Did the fact that many soldiers were on drugs to enhance their performance diminish their moral responsibility in carrying out the duties defined by their commanders. Can a person see God clearly when high.
The Nazi Death Machine: Hitler's Drugged Soldiers - SPIEGEL ONLINE - International

Also the American revolution seems quite faithless and Americans had a duty to the King which they failed in.

It is hard to think of roles where our faith and the duties which we are given will not sometimes contradict. How should we deal with these situations. Does it come down to selective obedience to earthly authorities and total obedience to our heavenly Father even if it costs us our lives in this earth?

It seems faith in God can and should make us very unpopular sometimes and our duties to God can sometimes contradict our duties to worldly authorities with deadly consequences for us.

Luke 17:5-10
The apostles said to the LORD, "Increase our faith!" 6He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you. 7"Suppose one of you has a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Will he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? 8Won't he rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? 9Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty

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Bonhoeffer was implicated in the plot to kill Hitler in the summer of 1944. His knowledge, and involvement was probably exaggerated. Although, it is pretty well established he did pass INTEL to the British through an acquaintance in Switzerland.

I'm the end he went through a 12 hour hanging evolution, before being allowed to finally die at Flossenberg Concentration Camp a few weeks before the end of the European War.

I have always wondered if targeted assassinations, lying, or, other immoral activities of shown likely to save lives, could ever be consistent with Christianity? Rahab comes to mind, as do the actions of those who hid Jews, and downed Allied Airmen...they often lied to Germans to save lives.

World wide, 80 million people died in WW2, most were civilians. It would be a hard call, one I am glad I never had to make.

On the memorial that includes DIETRICH BONHOEFFER'S name (along with the others killed with him) at the site of the former Flossenberg Concentration Camp, an inscription reads:

"Where books are burned, they will, in the end, burn people"

There are many good books about Pastor Bonhoeffer, one of the things I never knew until a few years ago was that he spent a year doing theological study at General Theological Seminary in New York City.

Pastor Bonhoeffer was actually in Britain when the war started, and could have stayed, but he was running a Underground Seminary in Germany, and felt he was needed there...was it the wrong decision? Probably not, as this humble Pastor influenced so many people for the better.

mindlight said:

That is a good way of understanding this. Duty as the outward expression of our faith in our calling and in the person of Christ who animates our lives and directs their meaning. We follow the visible example of Christ on earth and we believe in the invisible God who lives within us by His Spirit.

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Hello, yes the same Spirit that was in Jesus on earth is the same Spirit (Word) that needs to grow within us so we can grow to become like Him..1John 4:13
And just as He (Jesus ) is the Image(visible ) of the invisible God when He walked on earth...Colossians 1:15, 2 Corinthians 4:4 etc, so are we on this earth the Image (visible ) of our Father (invisible )...1John4:17, 1John2:6...

This is how Faith is made complete in us..by being like JESUS...

mindlight said:

He collaborated with enemies of the state to bring about the downfall of the Nazis and was possibly involved in the plot to kill Hitler also. That is treason and disobedience to various laws. His underground seminary educating Christians about what the bible actually said rather than the positive Christianity reinterpretations of the Nazi regime was a legitimate activity however and one which the Nazis had no authority to object to although obvious power to. The nazis had coopted the youth of the nation from their Sunday Schools into the Hitler youth. Any and all attempts to keep the truth alive was a legitimate act even if the Nazis burnt many of the books in which it was spoken. Hiding Jews and even helping them to escape was also a legitimate act as the alternative was to assist the state to commit murder. Germans like Oskar Schindler defied these rules and saved many Jewish lives.

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What a generation of people!

mindlight said:

Have to preach this Sunday on this theme.
1) What is faith? (Heb 11)
2) What is duty?
3) How to they work together, do they conflict or complement

I was thinking about the example of Bonhoeffer. Did he show a lack of faith and a failure of duty attempting to assassinate Hitler for instance. His attempt seemed to contradict Romans 13:1-7 which implies that we trust in God no matter how bad the authorities and should carry out the duties we have been given in the place we have been assigned them respecting the insitu authorities even if they are Nero himself. BY this reckoning German soldiers, high on Pervitin, are not guilty for fighting for Germany in WW2 but maybe they were guilty if they murdered people in cold blood even under orders. Are there orders therefore that you should refuse.

Did the fact that many soldiers were on drugs to enhance their performance diminish their moral responsibility in carrying out the duties defined by their commanders. Can a person see God clearly when high.
The Nazi Death Machine: Hitler's Drugged Soldiers - SPIEGEL ONLINE - International

Also the American revolution seems quite faithless and Americans had a duty to the King which they failed in.

It is hard to think of roles where our faith and the duties which we are given will not sometimes contradict. How should we deal with these situations. Does it come down to selective obedience to earthly authorities and total obedience to our heavenly Father even if it costs us our lives in this earth?

It seems faith in God can and should make us very unpopular sometimes and our duties to God can sometimes contradict our duties to worldly authorities with deadly consequences for us.

Luke 17:5-10
The apostles said to the LORD, "Increase our faith!" 6He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you. 7"Suppose one of you has a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Will he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? 8Won't he rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? 9Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty

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But remember Acts...We ought to obey God rather than man...