Question about why the early church didnt believe in biblical doctrine

Athanasius377

Out of the deep I called unto thee O Lord
Site Supporter
Apr 22, 2017
1,371
1,515
Cincinnati
✟706,293.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Its not, but why modernize when the theological significance has been established. Take the decon:
View attachment 264254

An example would be the sash he is holding. Roman senators and officials would wear this sash and hold it upright when delivering an official speach or statement. The decons read the litanies and sometimes give a sermon (homily). Now as the Eastern Roman empire existed as a Christian Empire for almost 1000 years and Christianized Russia and the Middle East, this tradition is firmly established and perfectly fine. It shows the decons spiritual authority as a teacher.

We just simply don't change things. We haven't had a major doctrinal change since the 8th century and there is simply no reason to modernize what works. The RCC has lost so much of the beauty and theological teaching in their mass from modernizing. Every tradition in Orthodoxy, dogmatic or not, is meant to teach some aspect of the Christian life. Our goal is to be part of the Kingdom, so we make our services to reflect the glory of heaven.

View attachment 264255

I like a lot of what you wrote. I would also add that during the reformation the vestments at least in some circles went from the Chasuble and Stole to an academic gown and headwear. In my Lutheran church the pastor retains the stole but only wears the Alb instead adding the chasuble. The point is the garments look to the authority given by Christ in the office and not the authority of the man holding the office. I can’t speak to the Orthodox but Lutherans are not dogmatic about vestments though we do believe it would be a mistake not to use them.
 
Upvote 0

HatGuy

Some guy in a hat
Jun 9, 2014
1,008
786
Visit site
✟123,338.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps neither 'assurance' mentioned is the true assurance in Christ Jesus which the Ekklesia abiding in Him today, living in union with the Son and with the Father Daily, as written throughout the NT ?
i.e. Yahuweh's Sovereign Truth is not 'subjective', nor is it usually understood, until He Grants it, as written.
Jesus Christ died for me two thousand + years ago. That is my assurance. Not some mystical revelation or subjective experience, and not the Law or the state of my works, but the truth as displayed in the Word of God, the gospel of Jesus.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Athanasius377
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Jesus Christ died for me two thousand + years ago. That is my assurance. Not some mystical revelation or subjective experience, and not the Law or the state of my works, but the truth as displayed in the Word of God, the gospel of Jesus.
As written in His Word,
Yahuweh's Plan and Purpose in Yahushua Hamashiach since before the world was created,
Christ was Crucified for men's sins.

Most men die anyway in their sins , never being born again.
 
Upvote 0

HatGuy

Some guy in a hat
Jun 9, 2014
1,008
786
Visit site
✟123,338.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As written in His Word,
Yahuweh's Plan and Purpose in Yahushua Hamashiach since before the world was created,
Christ was Crucified for men's sins.

Most men die anyway in their sins , never being born again.
Simple faith in Christ, and they would not die in their sin.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Athanasius377
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Sure as heck gives me assurance - far more than the subjective Christian spiritualities of my past, which insisted on me weighing up my works and my every thought and action and then working even more to try and make myself holy and make sure I meet the ever-elusive, ever-increasing standard, while not lifting a finger to help me.

Our own righteousness without having the Spirit - the seed of the Father - is as clean as dirty rags. Only those who have the Spirit of Christ within them are supernaturally empowered, and can actually practice righteousness and keep the commandments of Jesus. This is something not taught in churches out of the Reformation who teach we are still sinners and will always be in the flesh, and not children of God. Their teachings do not take into account the supernatural nature of God that creates a divine born again nature in us, but can only understand and fathom their own carnal human nature, as they've experienced no other.
 
Upvote 0

Athanasius377

Out of the deep I called unto thee O Lord
Site Supporter
Apr 22, 2017
1,371
1,515
Cincinnati
✟706,293.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Our own righteousness without having the Spirit - the seed of the Father - is as clean as dirty rags. Only those who have the Spirit of Christ within them are supernaturally empowered, and can actually practice righteousness and keep the commandments of Jesus. This is something not taught in churches out of the Reformation who teach we are still sinners and will always be in the flesh, and not children of God. Their teachings do not take into account the supernatural nature of God that creates a divine born again nature in us, but can only understand and fathom their own carnal human nature, as they've experienced no other.
So you no longer sin? Not in thought word and deed and what you do and what you have failed to do? Answer honestly. I have failed to meet the standard Gods law set for me since I woke this morning.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Our own righteousness without having the Spirit - the seed of the Father - is as clean as dirty rags. Only those who have the Spirit of Christ within them are supernaturally empowered, and can actually practice righteousness and keep the commandments of Jesus. This is something not taught in churches out of the Reformation who teach we are still sinners and will always be in the flesh, and not children of God. Their teachings do not take into account the supernatural nature of God that creates a divine born again nature in us, but can only understand and fathom their own carnal human nature, as they've experienced no other.
It might be advisable to depart the room of good intentions and enter the room of Grace.
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
So you no longer sin? Not in thought word and deed and what you do and what you have failed to do? Answer honestly. I have failed to meet the standard Gods law set for me since I woke this morning.

1 John 3:9
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The question you should be asking is, do you? Only the righteous and holy will enter heaven, as they have been empowered by the Holy Spirit of Christ, and their nature has been born again and are now partakers of the divine nature.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HatGuy

Some guy in a hat
Jun 9, 2014
1,008
786
Visit site
✟123,338.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Our own righteousness without having the Spirit - the seed of the Father - is as clean as dirty rags. Only those who have the Spirit of Christ within them are supernaturally empowered, and can actually practice righteousness and keep the commandments of Jesus. This is something not taught in churches out of the Reformation who teach we are still sinners and will always be in the flesh, and not children of God. Their teachings do not take into account the supernatural nature of God that creates a divine born again nature in us, but can only understand and fathom their own carnal human nature, as they've experienced no other.

Only the righteous and holy will enter heaven, as they have been empowered by the Holy Spirit of Christ, and their nature has been born again and are now partakers of the divine nature.

But if you do sin, has the Holy Spirit failed?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Athanasius377
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,307
10,593
Georgia
✟909,760.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Good point - the Word of God matters.

1. I doubt that OSAS is a majority belief among non Catholics.
2. It is not the Bible because it was not taught by Bible writers.
3. OSAS does not pass the "sola scriptura test".

Ezek 18 -- forgiveness revoked -- salvation revoked
Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked" teaching of Christ - loss of salvation
Matthew 13 - loss of salvation doctrine seen in the teaching of Christ seed sown among thorns
Gal 5:4 you have been "4 You have been severed from Christ, .... you have fallen from grace "
John 15:1-5 "branches in ME" that are cut off and burned in the fire
1 Cor 9:27 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it"
Rom 11 "you stand only by your faith - should FEAR for If He did not spare them He may not spare you either"


Seventh-day Adventists, Pentecostals, most Methodists, Free Will Baptists, some non-denominational churches all teach that a Christian can 'fall from grace' and lose their salvation.

And as Christianity Today pointed out in Feb 2015 Seventh-day Adventists are the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world.

And since you said "the majority belief" and did not limit it to "among evangelicals" or "among protestants" -- then we have to also include the Catholic church in the group of Christians that also do not teach OSAS -- and never did (and I don't think the OC teaches it either).

So your "majority" statement can only be "majority within some select minority"

Have you actually researched what they wear and why?

fascinating the way the topic turns
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Athanasius377

Out of the deep I called unto thee O Lord
Site Supporter
Apr 22, 2017
1,371
1,515
Cincinnati
✟706,293.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
1 John 3:9
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The question you should be asking is, do you? Only the righteous and holy will enter heaven, as they have been empowered by the Holy Spirit of Christ, and their nature has been born again and are now partakers of the divine nature.

I noticed that you didn’t actually answer the question. And you are correct that only the righteous will enter heaven. But is yours or is it Christ’s? Recall what John wrote in chapter 1 of the same epistle:
1 John 1:8–10 (NAS): 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Or here

1 John 2:1–2 (NAS): My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
 
Upvote 0

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
I noticed that you didn’t actually answer the question. And you are correct that only the righteous will enter heaven. But is yours or is it Christ’s? Recall what John wrote in chapter 1 of the same epistle:
1 John 1:8–10 (NAS): 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Or here

1 John 2:1–2 (NAS): My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

This is long, but mostly scripture. It is important you take the time and read all of it.

Do you honestly believe John is contradicting himself in the same epistle? Both 1 John 1 and 1 John 3 are written in the Semitic writing style of contrasts. I know the western church, such as the UK and US are not educated in the eastern styles that Jews write in, and this is where itching ears are born. You prefer 1 John 1:8 over 1 John 3:9 and can only relate to being a slave to sin, rather than being freed from sin. John 8:34-36. You were taught to believe we are willful sinners underneath a covering of the righteousness of Jesus, but really we, ourselves, haven't changed. This is what Luther taught, as well as Calvinists, the teachings from the Reformation, the church age of Sardis Revelation 3, the church that has a reputation for being alive, but is dead. And if we do change, it is only by our own power and are taught to put on an act of Christianity. That act in your own power is works of righteousness, but filthy rags. Only those whose acts are through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit actually inside are righteous and become holy.

To answer your question, I am freed from sin, because I am indwelt with the seed of the Father since 1977, 30 years after first going to church. Many Christians today are not saved because they have never been born again. They know about Jesus but do not abide in Him and obey Him. Those who have been born again of the Spirit no longer obey the carnal nature, but instead obey the divine nature given to them and do not willfully sin, just as 1 John 1:7 and 1 John 3:9 says. We are no longer called sinners, but children of God.

To help you understand the Semitic meaning of these two chapters, the red is of God, and the black is of darkness/Satan.

1 John 1:5-10

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.



8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The verses you were quoting started with verse 6, not 8. What this is saying is that everyone born after Adam and Eve are born into sin, therefore have sinned. If you say you have never sinned in your life before Christ, you are a liar. No one is born sinless. Jesus was conceived with the seed of the Father, and could not sin. When we are born again of the seed of the Father, our nature drastically changes in an instant, and our desire to sin is gone. We can be tempted, but our conscience has become supers-sensitized by the Spirit and we can easily resist, making the devil flee. Here is chapter 3.

1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!

Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin.

Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.


7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.


10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another,

12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.


13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren.

He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.


16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?


18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.

20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

HatGuy

Some guy in a hat
Jun 9, 2014
1,008
786
Visit site
✟123,338.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You were taught to believe we are willful sinners underneath a covering of the righteousness of Jesus, but really we, ourselves, haven't changed. This is what Luther taught, as well as Calvinists, the teachings from the Reformation, the church age of Sardis Revelation 3, the church that has a reputation for being alive, but is dead. And if we do change, it is only by our own power and are taught to put on an act of Christianity. That act in your own power is works of righteousness, but filthy rags. Only those whose acts are through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit actually inside are righteous and become holy.
This is a completely wrong interpretation of both Reformed theology and Luther.

A. Luther and the Reformers never ever taught we are "willful" sinners underneath a covering of the righteousness of Jesus.

"I say that man, before he is renewed into the new creation of the Spirit's kingdom, does and endeavours nothing to prepare himself for that new creation and kingdom, and when he is re-created does and endeavors nothing towards his perseverance in that kingdom; but the Spirit alone works both blessings in us, regenerating us, and preserving us when regenerate, without ourselves..." - Luther

The point being that the Spirit makes changes, not us. "Regeneration" is a big topic in the Reformed / Lutheran scheme, and one worth looking into. You've made assumptions that are simply not true. I don't know, perhaps you were taught this by the Charismatic church, which (by the way) has a history of caricaturing anything before it as "religious" and often believes that it alone has stumbled on the truth. I've heard Charismatics teach that only the Charismatics / Pentecostals "discovered the Holy Spirit" again, and only they "have the Spirit". I should know, I have exceptional experience with the Charismatic church as a Bible teacher within the Charismatic church. I also know this is a blatant falsity about church history.

What is being stated by Luther above is we have changed by God's regenerating Spirit, but our change is a complete work of God, not at all our work. We cannot regenerate ourselves, nor can any of our righteousness ever be good enough.

B. You said that it was / is taught that "if we do change, it is only by our own power and are taught to put on an act of Christianity." This is completely false. Who taught you that? They were wrong and you should have researched it better. I have never read Luther or any Reformer whatsoever ever having taught this, not back then and not today. This was, in fact, exactly what they were (and still are) fighting against.

C. You say "That act in your own power is works of righteousness, but filthy rags. Only those whose acts are through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit actually inside are righteous and become holy."
See again Luther's quote above. It agrees with you in principle, but it is the nature of the righteousness under question. Is it an "infused" righteousness, as the Catholics taught? Or an "imputed" righteousness as the Reformers taught? Or an "imparted" righteousness as the Methodists taught? Knowing the history of the charismatic church, I would venture to say you are thinking it's an "imparted" righteousness. Well, I think that it would be far more fruitful to have the discussion there, rather than caricaturing and straw-manning.

As a Charismatic Christian who leans towards Lutheran theology in soteriology, I agree (as would most reformers, I believe) that we are children of God, yet at the same time we really are still sinners because if we weren't we would not longer need God's grace. It's a matter of absolute fact that every Christian does sin, even unwilfully, and is daily in need of God's grace. I know my history, and I know that the Charismatic movement was born out of the holiness movement, but even in the finer details, those who claim "sinless perfection" do not ever really go so far to say that Christians never sin again, except those who are on the fringe or a couple of crazies here at CF who have no idea what they're talking about.

The point is that we are to embrace our weakness so that we can embrace God's power that saves despite our weakness. That's what Paul is getting at in 2 Corinthians 12:8-10. I have no power to save myself, I will probably be weak until the day I die, but where I am weak, He is strong, and His work on the cross is powerful enough to save me despite my weakness. The gospel saves; Jesus is the gospel, and He saves, not me. The Holy Spirit is not given to me to polish up my own righteousness, to "help" me overcome sin. No, he is the sole and only worker of righteousness in and through me. Only faith in Christ energises good works, and these good works have nothing to do with my entry into heaven or my acceptance before God.

The day I realised that I am weak and will always be weak was the day I began to taste the precious sweetness of the gospel, and (ironically) it was the day I found sin having much, much less of a tug in my life. It was the day assurance came, because assurance is not based on how well I'm doing,
"empowered" or not, but that Jesus died on the cross for me, was raised for me, and for you, and for all who would come and put their faith in His powerful and sovereign Name.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Athanasius377
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,901
3,531
✟323,008.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
So I'm evangelizing to an unbeliever and was asked a really good question that I cannot answer as I don't really know much about the early church. He asked if Christ and the apostles taught Eternal Security and the fact that you couldn't lose your salvation and a majority of the five points of Calvinism than why wasn't this believed by the early church and not even Luther himself? Why did it not become a majority belief until AFTER the reformation in the 18th century? I honestly don't have an answer for him. Why did the early church reject what Christ and the apostles taught? Why did it take almost 1,700 years for the right doctrine to emerge despite scripture being the same for centuries?

For those of you who don't believe these things are taught in the Bible how do you explain away VERY clear statements made by Christ and the apostles? I've already given the scriptures over and over again in my previous threads. I'm sorry, but when God says that the Holy Spirit will live inside of us for forever I BELIEVE HIM! When God says that none that the father gives to Jesus will be lost, I BELIEVE HIM! When Paul says that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit upon our salvation GUARANTEEING what is to come, I believe God. When Peter says that we are born of INCORRUPTIBLE seed and kept secure by the power of God, I believe him! When the writer of Hebrews says that by Christs sacrifice we are perfected for ALL time I believe them!

Imo to say that a born again believer can become unborn again by leaving the faith is calling God and the apostles LIARS! Because they say the exact opposite ALL throughout scripture! But you can go ahead and try to twist the word of God into saying whatever you want it to. I on the other hand, will rest in Gods promises.

Anyway I had to rant about that sorry. Back on topic though. Why didn't the early church actually bother picking up their bibles for almost 2,000 years? Why did the teachings of Christ and the Apostles die away?
Do you really mean to say that each and every person down through the centuries who heard those words and applied them to themselves was necessarily saved? And can you not consider that those words may've been more on the order of exhortation, encouragement, hyperbole, etc?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 14, 2019
2,596
654
76
Tennessee
✟140,294.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
This is a completely wrong interpretation of both Reformed theology and Luther.

A. Luther and the Reformers never ever taught we are "willful" sinners underneath a covering of the righteousness of Jesus.

"I say that man, before he is renewed into the new creation of the Spirit's kingdom, does and endeavours nothing to prepare himself for that new creation and kingdom, and when he is re-created does and endeavors nothing towards his perseverance in that kingdom; but the Spirit alone works both blessings in us, regenerating us, and preserving us when regenerate, without ourselves..." - Luther

The point being that the Spirit makes changes, not us. "Regeneration" is a big topic in the Reformed / Lutheran scheme, and one worth looking into. You've made assumptions that are simply not true. I don't know, perhaps you were taught this by the Charismatic church, which (by the way) has a history of caricaturing anything before it as "religious" and often believes that it alone has stumbled on the truth. I've heard Charismatics teach that only the Charismatics / Pentecostals "discovered the Holy Spirit" again, and only they "have the Spirit". I should know, I have exceptional experience with the Charismatic church as a Bible teacher within the Charismatic church. I also know this is a blatant falsity about church history.

What is being stated by Luther above is we have changed by God's regenerating Spirit, but our change is a complete work of God, not at all our work. We cannot regenerate ourselves, nor can any of our righteousness ever be good enough.

B. You said that it was / is taught that "if we do change, it is only by our own power and are taught to put on an act of Christianity." This is completely false. Who taught you that? They were wrong and you should have researched it better. I have never read Luther or any Reformer whatsoever ever having taught this, not back then and not today. This was, in fact, exactly what they were (and still are) fighting against.

C. You say "That act in your own power is works of righteousness, but filthy rags. Only those whose acts are through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit actually inside are righteous and become holy."
See again Luther's quote above. It agrees with you in principle, but it is the nature of the righteousness under question. Is it an "infused" righteousness, as the Catholics taught? Or an "imputed" righteousness as the Reformers taught? Or an "imparted" righteousness as the Methodists taught? Knowing the history of the charismatic church, I would venture to say you are thinking it's an "imparted" righteousness. Well, I think that it would be far more fruitful to have the discussion there, rather than caricaturing and straw-manning.

As a Charismatic Christian who leans towards Lutheran theology in soteriology, I agree (as would most reformers, I believe) that we are children of God, yet at the same time we really are still sinners because if we weren't we would not longer need God's grace. It's a matter of absolute fact that every Christian does sin, even unwilfully, and is daily in need of God's grace. I know my history, and I know that the Charismatic movement was born out of the holiness movement, but even in the finer details, those who claim "sinless perfection" do not ever really go so far to say that Christians never sin again, except those who are on the fringe or a couple of crazies here at CF who have no idea what they're talking about.

The point is that we are to embrace our weakness so that we can embrace God's power that saves despite our weakness. That's what Paul is getting at in 2 Corinthians 12:8-10. I have no power to save myself, I will probably be weak until the day I die, but where I am weak, He is strong, and His work on the cross is powerful enough to save me despite my weakness. The gospel saves; Jesus is the gospel, and He saves, not me. The Holy Spirit is not given to me to polish up my own righteousness, to "help" me overcome sin. No, he is the sole and only worker of righteousness in and through me. Only faith in Christ energises good works, and these good works have nothing to do with my entry into heaven or my acceptance before God.

The day I realised that I am weak and will always be weak was the day I began to taste the precious sweetness of the gospel, and (ironically) it was the day I found sin having much, much less of a tug in my life. It was the day assurance came, because assurance is not based on how well I'm doing,
"empowered" or not, but that Jesus died on the cross for me, was raised for me, and for you, and for all who would come and put their faith in His powerful and sovereign Name.

Luther said that "even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God." Doesn't look like any regeneration has occurred to me. In fact, that is the most heretical teaching I've ever heard!

Say what you like about your experiences with a Charismatic church; it doesn't affect me. I don't belong to a denomination; but I am completely Spirit-filled, and with gifts.
 
Upvote 0