Salvation Cannot be Lost

FreeGrace2 said:

The result of being given eternal life is never perishing, per John 10:28.

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Since you refuse to let scripture interpret scripture, all you can do is continue to pound on one verse with no context...no point in continuing this discussion, as you aren't interested in learning.

Being Born Again is not the same as Salvation.
The terminology of Salvation all through the Old Covenant related to God's intervention in this life, and had nothing to do with getting to Heaven when you're dead, as most churches perceive it.
"Salvation" was deliverance from Philistine, famine and plague, not just "pie in the sky when you die".
The afterlife is rarely mentioned in the OT.

When Jesus started his ministry, he was preaching to a people who still lived in the Old Covenant, and his terminology of salvation did not suddenly change meanings to suit churchianity or Christianity.

Thus being "born from above by the Spirit" is just the start of Salvation, a salvation process that continues throughout our lives.
For born again believers, many times and many years might be spent completely outside of God's salvation.
This might occur because they mistake religion and church activity for faith, activities that produce nothing before the Lord, other than wood, hay and stubble.
It might occur because they have a falling out with God and turn their backs on him, like the prodigal son did to his father.

But once a person is born of his father, they cannot be unborn.
That applies to both earthly father, and Heavenly Father.

ie. The prodigal son disappeared out of sight of his father, and ended up eating pig food. But despite that, he always remained his father's son, with his father's DNA within him.

renniks said:

Since you refuse to let scripture interpret scripture, all you can do is continue to pound on one verse with no context...no point in continuing this discussion, as you aren't interested in learning.

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Notice the title of the thread. Thus the topic is one opposed to Scripture to start with,
and those who believe false teachings have already a truck load of support outside of Scripture for why they do not believe Jesus.

Daniel C said:

Well I say you're a liar.
1 John 1:8
''If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.''
No one on this whole forum has claimed to be sinless....apart from you. Liar.
All we have is your word as testimony to claim sinlessness and to be honest I reject it because these are just words you're saying,not supported by scripture or evidence.

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What does scripture say is the kind of bride (church) Jesus is coming back for?
It is written..."That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Eph 5:27)

If nobody can "cease from sin", who is Peter talking about in 1 Peter 4:1?
"For inasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind, for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin,"

Who is Paul talking about in 1 Cor 15:34?
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame."

Who is Paul writing about in 2 Tim 2:19?
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal: “The Lord knoweth those who are His,” and, “Let every one who nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

I, by the grace of God, have been enabled to "arm myself with the same mind", "awakened to righteousness", and "departed from iniquity".
So can you...if you will turn from sin permanently.

FreeGrace2 said:

He paid the sin debt. But forgiveness of sin is by faith in Christ.

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Yes indeed.
Thank God for water baptism "into Christ". (Rom 6:3)
I have my faith, and I am "in Christ".
Of course sinners can't say they are "in Christ", as there is no sin "in Christ".

Phil W said:

What does scripture say is the kind of bride (church) Jesus is coming back for?
It is written..."That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Eph 5:27)

If nobody can "cease from sin", who is Peter talking about in 1 Peter 4:1?
"For inasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind, for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin,"

Who is Paul talking about in 1 Cor 15:34?
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame."

Who is Paul writing about in 2 Tim 2:19?
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal: “The Lord knoweth those who are His,” and, “Let every one who nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

I, by the grace of God, have been enabled to "arm myself with the same mind", "awakened to righteousness", and "departed from iniquity".
So can you...if you will turn from sin permanently.

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Look I don't want to keep calling you a liar because i've done it twice already. As for this claim you never sin, I don't believe you and that's the end of it.

FreeGrace2 said:

Exactly what the Bible says about that.
Rev 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” This is a reference to the lake of fire.

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So much for those "believers".

Please explain how you come to such a silly conclusion. My view of false believers is to evangelize them. Not give any of them solace.

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I think the rules here forbid evangelism, so I won't start with you, however my writings that faith equates to obedience will live on long after I am gone.
To say "I believe" without the requisite change of life style is a recipe for disaster.

You make a lot of high sounding claims, but you have zero evidence from Scripture.

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The hundreds of thousands of dead Jews in the desert will provide the proof that disobedience is the proof of disbelief.

Do you know WHY fathers discipline their children? One reason is that the child crossed the father. So don't give me this nonsense.

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Dads discipline their kids because they love them and don't want them ending up dead or in prison...or in hell.
If the discipline is heeded, there will be no more need for discipline.

Or what Paul told Tim in 1 Tim 1:19,20 -
19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith.
20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

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More false believers, eh?
Sin manifests disbelief.

spiritualchristian7 said:

Christians don't sin in the Spirit, but we still do with our flesh.
When we die, it's not our flesh which goes up to heaven.

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Thanks be to God for making a way to "crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts"! (Gal 5:24)
Romans 6:3-6 provides the way, and verse 7 provides the results.

Daniel C said:

Look I don't want to keep calling you a liar because i've done it twice already. As for this claim you never sin, I don't believe you and that's the end of it.

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You have no answer to the scriptures I posted?
Just disbelief?

Phil W said:

You have no answer to the scriptures I posted?
Just disbelief?

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Well my answer is I think you're not saved,so you can't interpret scripture. Otherwise you would understand this:

1 John 1:8
''If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.''

Daniel C said:

Well my answer is I think you're not saved,so you can't interpret scripture. Otherwise you would understand this:

1 John 1:8
''If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.''

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Why can't we say we have no sin when the verses before and after verse 9 both say we can?
John is talking about two different kinds of walk and those that take them.
Those walking in darkness, sin, cannot say they have fellowship with God or that they have no sin.
Those who have confessed their sins and now walk in the light, God, can say they have no sin because the blood of Christ has cleansed them of ALL sin.
John is using an A,B,A,B,A,B, style of writing.
A applies to those in light, God.
B applies to those in the darkness, sin.
Paul uses the same style in Romans 8 where he alternates flesh, Spirit, flesh, Spirit, flesh, Spirit.

If you give up the ability to say you have no sin, then you also forfeit the ability to say you have fellowship with God.

Whenever someone denies much Scripture to prove an isolated doctrine with some Scripture, and continually dismisses all the Scripture in order to convey any false teaching, so that no Scripture from anyone, not even the testimony from someone who once was dead and is now alive forever, can change their mind to believe the truth,

then it does not contribute to their welfare nor shalom nor well-being
to continue to try to change their mind.

That is something even God will not force upon them - He Will Wait until they are willing (if ever) ,

as Jesus lamented over Jerusalem "... but ye would not ..." ....

FreeGrace2 said:

There IS sin in the human nature. But you'd have to read Romans 5-7 to know that.

God gives the believer a new nature with which to NOT sin. But there is a choice, as Romans 6 makes very clear. It's a moment by moment choice, btw.

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He also provided a way to kill the old nature so it is not a factor in our decision making anymore.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

FreeGrace2 said:

They weren't believers. Why would you say such a silly thing?

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It is written..."Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme." (1 Tim 1:19-20)
Were they "believers"...once?

It is a recipe for disaster, but not one that leads to the lake of fire.

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So why are the takers of the mark of the beast eliminated from eternal salvation if blasphemers aren't?

If that were true, Jesus would HAVE HAD TO make that clear in John 10:28.

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He did, in verse 27..."My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
Those who won't "follow Him" don't have a guarantee of heaven.

Yep. It's called the sin unto death in 1 John 5:16 and is part of God's system of divine discipline toward rebellious believers.

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All sins are unto death, if they are not "turned from".
There will be no liars or adulterers in heaven.
Only those who repented of lying and fornication...those who "follow Him".

The question of whether you can lose your depends, of course, on what salvation is. If you see it as a contract with God that He's going to let you into heaven as a reward for your belief then you'll believe that whatever you do you'll still be "saved". But it seems to me that there is a fuller meaning of "saved" which is about the whole person not just the soul. We live in the present as people and our salvation is about this life as well as our future eternal life. We are saved so that God can do things through us now that He otherwise wouldn't have been able to do, not just so that that God can give us eternal life.

FreeGrace2 said:

Please prove your opinion from Scripture. That means quoting a verse that SAYS what you opine.

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My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The result of hearing and following Christ and His teachings and commandments is to receive eternal life.


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And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29


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Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9

• does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God

Please explain to all of us how a person can follow Christ without obeying Him?


Hear - The KJV translates Strong's G191 in the following manner: hear (418x), hearken (6x), give audience (3x), hearer (2x), miscellaneous (8x

1. to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
   
   
2. to hear
   1. to attend to, consider what is or has been said
      
      
   2. to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3. to hear something
   1. to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence
      
      
   2. to get by hearing learn
      
      
   3. a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn
      
      
   4. to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
      
      
   5. to comprehend, to understand