A near death experiencer describes hell???

BobRyan said:

You are looking for the greek term in Luke 16 for Abraham? It's probably something like
Ἀβραάμ Abraam



Well I do know the following;

1. no text in OT or NT says that - only this parable where we have prayers to the dead. And even it does not say "until Jesus ascended into heaven all the saved went to the compartment of hell known as Abrahams Bosom/Paradise"

2. what is more NO TEXT in OT or NT says that another name for Paradise is "Abrham's bosom"

3. There are in fact only 3 uses of the term "paradise" in all of scripture and none say they are abraham's bosom



if you read the Bible 100 times you will never find that hell has a compartment in it called "Paradise" or that Paradise is one of the compartments in hell, or that Paradise is the first compartment of hell or any such thing as that in scripture.

Now my statement is pretty well a blanket statement covering all of scripture -- so I am making it as easy as could possibly be for someone who actually has such a text to prove that I am mistaken.

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No I am looking at the word for pray- and it means to beseech, plea or beg. He was not praying to Abraham.

As for the rest- it comes from the fact that Jesus was a Jew! He grew up in a Jewish culture and knew Jewish theology.

We also know that life after physical death wasn't established until around the time of David. God had not revealed it yet.

But the righteous dead were taught ot have gone into Abrahams Bosom. It was the place for the righteous dead in hell-which is the underworld or grave. It was also called Paradise as Jesus said to teh penitent thief! Jews knew this and modern Jews even know this and the church that has educated itself in this know this. It was not taught in the bible as it was a common teaching on life after death except with the Saduccees who did not believe in life after death.

Because Jesus' blood had not yet been shed and His blood poured out on the mercy seat in heaven- the saved of the OT could not go to heaven.

Still waiting for you r interpretation of what Jesus meant by this parable.

BobRyan said:

communion with the dead - by any other name... still the same.

This is one of the reasons that R.C Sproul admitted Luke 16 is most certainly a parable.

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Well it is not communion with the dead-it is communion between the dead! For though they are dead physically- there souls still lived as they do now! The saints in heaven are not mute- but praise God and share with each other! Same with the souls in the place of torment awaiting being cast into the lake of fire.

DennisTate said:

You could be correct.......
many near death experiencers go off toward what could be referred to perhaps as "Cyrus Consciousness"... which is not exactly the same thing as Billy Graham Consciousness........

The Cyrus Challenge Experiment proposed....

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As a brother who cares- let me encourage you to leave studying all these things like you said above and multiverses and Ezekiel and such bizarre stuff, until you are more schooled in the Word of God. It will protect you when you do look at stuff like this so you can know what is Godly and what is not!

Just because it sounds reasonable, and logical doesn't make it biblical! Prov. 16:25

DennisTate said:

If you think that near death experiences are all half baked........
then you might want to take another look at
2 Corinthians 12
2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.

3 And I know such a man (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth), 4 how that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

5 On behalf of such a one will I glory: but on mine own behalf I will not glory, save in [my] weaknesses.

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That sounds more like a vision to me, and isn't it interesting that Paul did not find it helpful to mention exactly what he saw in the vision? He put his faith in his Torah learning, instead, plus the revelation that Christ had fulfilled the Law, and did not boast about being chosen to see a vision. He wouldn't have made a very good faith healer preacher!

Shrewd Manager said:

So hell is destroyed by the power of hell? Can the devil be destroyed by the power of the devil? No he cannot. He can, however, be consumed and overcome by the heavenly powers of light and love. Why do you think he is tormented so? It's not because his tail's being singed, but due to him resisting God's grace. Good luck with that!

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Your confusion is you equate hell with the lake of fire which it is not! We call eternal torment hell colloquially, but techinically and biblically the place of eternal torment is the lake of fire- and yes hell which is the grave/sheol/hades/ is destroyed in the lake of fire!

Shrewd Manager said:

No, it's the other way around. The Catholics had to bring in purgatory otherwise (as they rightly surmised) EVERYONE would be roasted, for everybody sins (1 Jn 1:8). It's a clawback from universal blowdown. The Greek word for 'fire' here is the same as 'pure', and the word for sulphur/ brimstone is 'theion' (same as God, theos). The lake of fire is not a literal thing, any more than death and hell are literal objects.

If you follow the fire back to its source, you'll find it comes direct in a stream from the throne.

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So you believe in universal salvation then. So if I turn my back on christ and live a life of sin- I will get saved though I may have to go through a purgation for my sins?

Its root is the same- but it is a divine burning! Well we know that death and hell are destroyed! You and I can make any kind of guess as to how they are destroyed but they are just guesses. I will take God at His Word and let HIm show me different. We simply do not knowwhat it is like in the lake of fire for non animate objects and how they are destroyed- But God says He throws death and hell into the lake and this is called the second death!

Shrewd Manager said:

Revelation: the lake of fire IS the blood of the Lamb. Life abundant. Mercy boasting over judgment. Grace abounding over sin. Evil repayed with good. Love conquers all.

I'm not seeing how the angel's gospel of glad tidings of great joy for all (Lk 2:10-11) is corrupted by a faith in the ultimate salvation of all. Maybe you can enlighten me?

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Well I have heard of many esoteric definitions ot defend universalism- but yours is unique!

Matthew 7:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Mark 9:43-45 King James Version (KJV)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Matthew 8:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:41-42 King James Version (KJV)
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

See folks stay in the lake forever and ever! and it burns, and there is darkness and some kind of worm and they are tormented and they have no sleep! UNless of course God did not say what He meant and you have the secret meaning He kept hid from the rest of teh believing world

BobRyan said:

communion with the dead - by any other name... still the same.

This is one of the reasons that R.C Sproul admitted Luke 16 is most certainly a parable.

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nolidad said:

Well it is not communion with the dead-it is communion between the dead!

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Indeed -- Lazarus having communion with the sovereign of all saints in heaven --.... err... ummm..."Abraham". Who "renders his decision" about who can be resurrected so as to communicate with the living. At this point a great many Christian Bible scholars admit it is pure parable.

nolidad said:

Your confusion is you equate hell with the lake of fire which it is not!

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That is how John terms it in Rev 20.

John's lake of fire and brimstone - is the fiery Gehenna of other Bible writers .. the punishment of the wicked.

DennisTate said:

From 1973 - 1989 I would have agreed that it was a parable......
then I read several books about near death experience accounts and I realized that I had been incorrect......... The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is no mere parable!

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From 1973 - 1989 it seems you believed the truth (for whatever reason), in line with all Scripture.
THen you read several notoriously unfaithful, unscriptural, accounts / nda and other? / and converted over (for feelings or emotions perhaps?) to believe error instead.

Not just one error, but from previous posts and threads , several serious errors, because of departing from Scripture.

DennisTate said:

From your point of view that is how this would appear... but I am so glad that I no longer believe in the Soul Sleep Theory.

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Has Nothing To Do With Soul Sleep, sorry. THe false teachings you accepted and believed from non-biblical sources, unfaithful sources, human/emotional sources,
are not found in Scripture, and are directly opposed to Scripture.

nolidad said:

Your confusion is you equate hell with the lake of fire which it is not! We call eternal torment hell colloquially, but techinically and biblically the place of eternal torment is the lake of fire- and yes hell which is the grave/sheol/hades/ is destroyed in the lake of fire!

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Lol, that's my point, the nature and character of the LOF and Hades/hell are completely different. It's not just a bigger hotter fire, the remand center to the supermax.

nolidad said:

So you believe in universal salvation then. So if I turn my back on christ and live a life of sin- I will get saved though I may have to go through a purgation for my sins?

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Jesus saves the world. God will be all in all. All means all.

Why is it a problem for you if people don't burn in hell for eternity?

nolidad said:

You and I can make any kind of guess as to how they are destroyed but they are just guesses.

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Not really, I'm blessed to have been born again, so I've experienced the power of God. Also if you've seen the son, you've seen the father. He is good, gracious, merciful, holy, just, righteous, wise. He is life, He is love, He is salvation. He overcomes the world. He repays evil with good, and by doing so pours hot coals on his enemies' heads. That's the power of heaven, not satan's carnal bbq-grill.

nolidad said:

But God says He throws death and hell into the lake and this is called the second death!

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That's it, he kills death dead. As in 'die to self live to Christ'. The fire is from God, so it can only destroy evil to bring forth life. Eze 47:8:
Then he said to me, “This river flows east through the desert into the valley of the Dead Sea. The waters of this stream will make the salty waters of the Dead Sea fresh and pure.

nolidad said:

Well I have heard of many esoteric definitions ot defend universalism- but yours is unique!

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All credit to the HS.

nolidad said:

See folks stay in the lake forever and ever! and it burns, and there is darkness and some kind of worm and they are tormented and they have no sleep! UNless of course God did not say what He meant and you have the secret meaning He kept hid from the rest of teh believing world

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I'm familiar with all those scriptures, which can all be understood in their proper context and meaning if you understand the fire is God's holy fire that purifies and corrects the sinner and brings forth repentance.

Yes it's an otherworldly (ainios) fire, and smoke of torment goes up forever ie it's gone, it's history. Doesn't say they stay in the fire forever. It's saying they'll be tormented as long as they keep serving the devil, and as they're struggling in vain to resist the transformative love of God. God's getting the divine fuller's soap to scrub the devil's mark out them, He's refining the dross and consuming the sin. You'll find this the consistent approach to how holy fire works throughout scripture.

DennisTate said:

Not if you read all the scriptures and have an open mind to the idea that some of the scriptures that your church explains away as being merely parables or metaphors..... may actually be far, far, far more than that.

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From all your posts I've read the last months or years, you have admitted and continue to believing false stories, opposed to and contrary to all Scripture.

BobRyan said:

Indeed -- Lazarus having communion with the sovereign of all saints in heaven --.... err... ummm..."Abraham". Who "renders his decision" about who can be resurrected so as to communicate with the living. At this point a great many Christian Bible scholars admit it is pure parable.

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Who voted Abraham sovereign of all saints?

And no Abe did not render a decision about who can rise from the dead! He simply said that even if one would rise from the dead, if they did not believe the law and the prophets- they would not believe if one rose. This was proven true with Lazarus the disciple and Jesus!

Yes many scholars say it is a parable- but nothing in the construction shows it to be a parable!

DennisTate said:

I feel sent to Atheists and Agnostics......
Over these past twenty or so years several of them have began to look at their beliefs very differently due to my explaining some of these things.


Do you want to see Intelligent Design taught in universities and schools?

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God can use any tool he desires to attract a person to Himself. But it is the gospel message that saves- not some near death experience recounting. We must remember that.

Our good lives are a powerful testimony, but if our living doesn't include sharing the gospel with people, we offer them no hope!

Shrewd Manager said:

Lol, that's my point, the nature and character of the LOF and Hades/hell are completely different. It's not just a bigger hotter fire, the remand center to the supermax.

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I agree, hell is temporary, the lake of fire is forever.

Shrewd Manager said:

Jesus saves the world. God will be all in all. All means all.

Why is it a problem for you if people don't burn in hell for eternity?

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Because it makes God and His Word a lie! Because He is not perfect in Justice! B ecause His Word does not say everyone gets saved. Because it is a demonic excuse for believers to not get out there and share the gospel with a lost and dying world as we are commanded to do!

Why should followers of Jesus live any kind of holy life? If we are all going to get saved anyway- what is a millenium or two of purging compared to eternity of bliss and living a life where I enjoy all the pleasures of sin? That is just insane!

Besides you misunderstand the word all there! It doesn't mean everysingle person- but all those who get saved.

Yes Jesus died for the sins of the world- not so everyone gets saved, but that no one can claim another methods of having their sins forgiven, other than by faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

There is no second chance! Once a person dies- their judgment is set and sentencing awaits!

nolidad said:

Who voted Abraham sovereign of all saints?

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certainly not me - but that is the way the parable is structured and the reason is because this parable comes in a long string of parables... Luke 16 starts out saying that the Jewish leaders where whining and complaining about those parables - so Christ hands them one they are sure to enjoy "Abraham" as sovereign of all saints in heaven.

nolidad said:

Yes many scholars say it is a parable- but nothing in the construction shows it to be a parable!

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You mean.. if we ignore the fact that the prayers are going to Abraham and he is the one rendering his sovereign judgment ... sovereign over what the dead saints in heaven can and cannot do when it comes to requests being made of them??..

I do like the fact that Abraham says there is no way to reach the living from the dead without being resurrected.