2 "Parousias" according to Partial Preterism......

Are the 2 parousias of Partial Preterism biblical?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 4 40.0%
  • I don't know right now

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 3 30.0%
  • I have never heard of it

    Votes: 1 10.0%
  • The Parousia was fulfilled in the 1st century

    Votes: 2 20.0%
  • There is only 1 Parousia

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    10

LittleLambofJesus

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mkgal1 said:
I think you're conflating two different thoughts. Romans 11 is about the "mystery of the olive tree" - of the People of God being from "all nations" just as God had promised Abraham.
I think you are conflating the same "times of the Gentiles" found in Luke 21:24, and Romans 11:25, and Acts of the Apostles 28:28, in order to make your viewpoint of 70 AD work.
.
Same claim he made to me over on this thread..........
Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?
BABerean2 said:
How many times are you going to post the above without correcting it?
Where in Holford's book does it claim all of Matthew 24 was fulfilled during 70 AD.
LittleLambofJesus said:
If you got a problem with it, contact the site to take it off.
BABerean2 said:
Everyone here should have a problem with you repeatedly making a claim about a book you have not read, in order to make your 70 AD doctrine work...
And you are doing likewise to make you form of Futurism to work..........

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose
  • Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.
Millennialism:
  • Amillennialism: "no millennium", rejects the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth. The amillennial viewpoint holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age.
  • Premillennialism: is the belief that Jesus Christ will literally and physically be on the earth for his millennial reign at his second coming. The doctrine is called premillennialism because it holds that Jesus' physical return to earth will occur prior to the inauguration of the millennium.
  • Postmillennialism: is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after the "Millennium", a Golden Age in which Christian ethics prosper.
 
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mkgal1

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I think you are conflating the same "times of the Gentiles" found in Luke 21:24, and Romans 11:25, and Acts of the Apostles 28:28, in order to make your viewpoint of 70 AD work.

.
BABerean - it was you who had posted originally that you believe Romans 11:25 and Luke 21:24 are of the same topic (I don't recall Acts 28:28 being brought in to that discussion). Here's your post from page 2 that I'm referring to:

BABerean2 said:
I am a Partial-Preterist who does not believe a parousia occurred during 70 AD, because Luke 21:25-28 did not happen during 70 AD.

We are now in the "times of the Gentiles", also described by Paul in Romans 11:25. Christ returns when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

I just completed two posts that explain my understanding of the DIFFERENCES (the opposite of conflating) between Romans 11:28 and Luke 21:24.
 
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mkgal1

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Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.



Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The future Second Coming of Christ described below occurs when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

I think you are conflating the same "times of the Gentiles" found in Luke 21:24, and Romans 11:25, and Acts of the Apostles 28:28, in order to make your viewpoint of 70 AD work.
So which is it? Do you believe they should or should not be tied together?

You have been the one [wrongly, I believe] tying all those passages together in order to make YOUR viewpoint work. The trouble is - they are NOT the same topic.

Why would you accuse me of conflating those passages when you've done exactly that? If I HAD done that - it would only make sense to me that you'd agree with me and it would be a non-issue?

Another version may make it more clear:

Luke 21:24 ~ They will be killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the period of the Gentiles comes to an end.


Is not the same topic as:


Acts 28:28
~ So I want you to know that this salvation from God has also been offered to the Gentiles, and they will accept it.”
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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It seems to me that you are the one [wrongly] tying all those passages together in order to make YOUR viewpoint work. The trouble is - they are NOT the same topic.

Another version may make that more clear:
Luke 21:24 ~ They will be killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the period of the Gentiles comes to an end.
Hello mkgal.....great post.
Have you and/or others seen this thread I have on it?

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10
=======================================
Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death;
And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine;
And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '

I believe Daniel 11 may involve some of the 1st century Jewish Wars......still working on it

Daniel 11 and the great North vs South War

Northern Kingdom of Israel vs the Southern Kingdom of Judah?

Daniel 11:33

And ones being intelligent<7919> of people they shall cause to understand to many-ones,
and they stumble<3782> in sword and in blaze<3852>, in captivity<7628> and in plunder days<3117>

[Sword and captive/captivity are mentioned together in only 2 verses of the NT:]

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Luke 21:24

And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Revelation 11:2 Revelation 13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity
into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints
===========================
Josephus confirms that event.........

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

............The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, .................Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

........the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome.
After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves,
or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ;
whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.[Deuteronomy 28:68]
 
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BABerean2

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You have been the one [wrongly, I believe] tying all those passages together in order to make YOUR viewpoint work. The trouble is - they are NOT the same topic.

By "YOUR viewpoint" if you mean the audible, and visible, and bodily, and future return of Jesus Christ to planet earth, then I am guilty as charged.
My viewpoint is the same understanding held by those of the Christian faith for almost 2,000 years.
I believe it is found in the statement of faith for this forum.

"Statement of Faith

The Nicene Creed

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)"


Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for a period of about 7 years, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
We are now in the time period in which the Gospel is being taken to the Gentiles. This time will occur until the future Second Coming of Christ.

This time period of the Gospel being taken to the Gentiles is referred to in Luke 21:24, and Romans 11:25, and Acts 28:28.

If you think the Gospel is not now being taken to the Gentiles, can you explain why not?


.
 
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mkgal1

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I'm not seeing in there support for your claim that all three of these passages are on the same topic ("the times of the Gentiles") and are parallel passages:

Luke 21:24 ; Act 28:28 ; Rom 11:25

You'd posted:
BABerean2 said:
This time period of the Gospel being taken to the Gentiles is referred to in Luke 21:24, and Romans 11:25, and Acts 28:28.]/quote]
 
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mkgal1

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This time period of the Gospel being taken to the Gentiles is referred to in Luke 21:24
How do you get that this passage is about the Gospel being taken to the Gentiles?

Luke 21:24 ~ They will be killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the period of the Gentiles comes to an end.
Luke 21:20-24 gives a description of the siege and destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans (Gentiles) in 70 A.D.
 
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BABerean2

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How do you get that this passage is about the Gospel being taken to the Gentiles?

Luke 21:24 ~ They will be killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the period of the Gentiles comes to an end.
Luke 21:20-24 gives a description of the siege and destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans (Gentiles) in 70 A.D.

Yes, but what comes after Luke 21:20-24?

What if a parent said to a teenage son... "I will give you an allowance until you reach the age of 18."

Would something change after that person reached the age of 18?

The future Second Coming of Christ is described in Luke 21:25-28.
It comes when the times of the Gentiles is completed.

There are signs in the sun, moon, and stars, in the Olivet Discourse, just as there are in Revelation chapter 6, at the future Second Coming of Christ.

The following is from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

"Luke 21:25

(g) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

(g) When the times have expired which are appointed for the salvation of the Gentiles and the punishment of the Jews: And so he changes topics from the destruction of Jerusalem to the history of the latter judgment."


 
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mkgal1

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Yes, but what comes after Luke 21:20-24?

What if a parent said to a teenage son... "I will give you an allowance until you reach the age of 18."

Would something change after that person reached the age of 18?

The future Second Coming of Christ is described in Luke 21:25-28.
It comes when the times of the Gentiles is completed.

There are signs in the sun, moon, and stars, in the Olivet Discourse, just as there are in Revelation chapter 6, at the future Second Coming of Christ.

The following is from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

"Luke 21:25

(g) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

(g) When the times have expired which are appointed for the salvation of the Gentiles and the punishment of the Jews: And so he changes topics from the destruction of Jerusalem to the history of the latter judgment."
Jesus never indicated a change of topic. He said:

Luke 21:31 ~ “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened

Luke 21:36 ~ So keep watch at all times, and pray that you may have the strength to escape all that is about to happen and to stand before the Son of Man.”
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Jesus never indicated a change of topic. He said:
Luke 21:31 ~ “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened

Luke 21:36 ~ So keep watch at all times, and pray that you may have the strength to escape all that is about to happen and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Good verses mkgal! Have you and or others seen my O D Harmonized thread?

Daniel 12:1
"And in that time/season Michael shall stand-up, the great chief prince, the one standing over sons of thy people. And becomes a time of distress<06869>, which not occurred since to become of a nation until that time. And in that time, thy people escape<4422>, everyone being found written in the scroll. [Luke 21:23-36]

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matthew 24:36
About yet that day and hour
, no one is aware,
neither the Messengers of the Heavens nor the Son except the Father only
Mark 13
32 And concerning that day or hour no one knows,
not even the Messengers, the ones in the Heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
33 Be looking!<991>, be being vigilant<69> and be praying!
for you do not know when the time is.
Luke 21:36
Be vigilant!<991>and be praying!
that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man [at the Judgment?]."

Luke 21:23
But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching! in every season,
beseeching that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming, and to stand before the Son of the Man.

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape<1628>.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:
Rapture refuted

Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength. At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the city. The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity :- nothing was to be heard but "the confused noise of the warrior, " -- nothing to be seen but garments rolled in blood," -- nothing to be expected from the Romans but signal and exemplary vengeance.

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah !

Nevertheless, the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly ; thus, not only fulfilling the predictions of our LORD, that these calamities should come, like the swift-darting lightning" that cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the West," and " as a snare on all of them (the Jews) who dwelt upon the face of the whole earth " (Matt. xxiv. 27, and Luke xxi 35,) but justifying, also, his friendly direction, that those who fled from the place should use the utmost possible expedition.
=====================
My harmonization of the 70AD Jerusalem/Temple discourse

I put a link to each verses of Matthew 24 below to make it easier to look up.
I include the verses of Mark 13 and Luke 21 if they are there.

Any input from other members is welcome.
============================
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:1 Temple, Buildings
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:2 "stone upon stone
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:3 When shall these be?and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end of the Age?
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:4-5 For many shall be coming upon My name, saying,‘I AM the Christ....
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:6 Wars rumors of Wars
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:7-8 , nation, kingdom against nation, kingdom; quaking, famines
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
Matt 24:9 " they shall be delivering ye up in to tribulation and shall be killing ye, hated by all"
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:10 Deliver up one another---brother to death
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:11, 12 False prophets.....multiplied lawlessness...love grows cold
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:13 One enduring to end shall be saved
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:14 Gospel preached, testimony to all nations----then the end
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:15 Abomination desolation....desolating of Jerusalem.
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:16 those in Judea flee
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:17, 18 Those on Housetop---in the field
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:19 "woe to those pregnant and nursing in those days"
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:20 pray flight not in winter or sabbath
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:21 great tribulation, great distress, and wrath
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:22 Days shortened for sake of elect
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 23:23-25 False christs and prophets--deceive the elect if possible
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:26 He is in the desert, in the storerooms.
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:27 Lightening flashes from east, so shall parousia of the Son of Man
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:28 Where the eagles/vultures, there the corpse/carcass/body be
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:29 Signs in sun, moon, stars, powers of heavens shaken
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:30 Son of Man coming upon cloud/s of heaven with power and much glory
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:31 Gather elect in trumpet sound from 4 winds of heaven/s
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:32 Fig tree ripe, summer is nigh
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:33 Nigh is upon doors, Kingdom of God
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:34 Not shall be passing this generation till all fulfilled
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth pass away, but not My words
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:36 Concerning day and hour, no one knows except Father
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:37-39 As in Days of Noah, thus also shall be Son of man
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:40-42 2 will be in the field, two will be grinding----1 taken, 1 left
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:43-44 Homeowner be wathchful, not knowing which hour Son of Man coming
 
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mkgal1

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In his commentary on Luke, N. T. Wright notes, He [Jesus] was right, the present Temple was wrong; if God was to vindicate him, that would have to include the Temple's destruction. Therefore, it would not be until the Temple was actually destroyed that Jesus' words and actions were vindicated and demonstrated to be supported by God the Father.
 
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BABerean2

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Jesus never indicated a change of topic. He said:

Luke 21:31 ~ “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened

Luke 21:36 ~ So keep watch at all times, and pray that you may have the strength to escape all that is about to happen and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


If you want to disagree with the notes of the 1599 Geneva Bible, that it OK with me, but at least show the scripture in context.
Verse 29 switches to a parable.

You have also failed to explain why we are not now in the times of the Gentiles.

Jesus forbid His disciples from taking the Gospel to the Gentiles in the passage below, because the Gospel was to be taken to Israel first.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Jesus forbid His disciples from taking the Gospel to the Gentiles in the passage below, because the Gospel was to be taken to Israel first.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
They would be brought before Kings and Governors after Pentecost...

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
Matt 24:9

Matthew 24:9

Then they shall be delivering ye up in to tribulation and shall be killing ye
and ye shall be being hated by all of the nations because of the Name of Me

Mark 13:9
Yet be ye looking out yeselves!
For they shall be delivering ye up into Sanhedrins and into Synagogues, and ye shall be being lashed<1194>
and before Governors and Kings to be standing on account of Me, into a witness/testimony to them.

Luke 21:12
Yet before all of these, they shall be laying the hands upon ye and shall be persecuting/pursuing ye,
delivering ye up into the Synagogues and Jails,
being led before Kings and Governors on account of the Name of Me
=============================
Acts 9:15
Said yet the Lord toward him "be thou going! that a vessel of-choice/ekloghV <1589> is to Me this-one, of the to bear the Name of Me before Nations and Kings, and Sons of-Israel".
========================
Jonah 3:1
And a word of Yahweh is becoming unto Jonah, a second, to say, 2 `Rise! go! to Niyn@veh, the city, the great and call to her, the call which I am speaking to thee;'


Jonah, Jesus and Paul

The book of "Jonah" is interesting and while reading thru it again, the word of YHWH coming to him a "second time" after being vomited up made me think of Saul/Paul when the Lord Jesus appeared to Him after His ascension.
Interesting also that the Ninevites are mentioned being "resurrected" in the judgement. Could Saul/Paul be a type of "Jonah" as Jesus was? Just curious and any views on this are appreciated. Thanks.

Jonah 3:1
And a word of YHWH is becoming unto Jonah, a second, to say, 2 `Rise! go! to Niyn@veh, the city, the great and call to her, the call which I am speaking to thee;'

Matt 12:41
`Men, Ninevites shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, this, and they shall be condemning it/her, that they repent/reform into the proclamation of Jonah and Lo! more of Jonah here. [Luke 11:30, 32]

Acts 9:15
Said yet toward him, the Lord , `Be you going!, that a vessel of choice is to Me this one, of the to bear the Name of Me in sight of Nations and kings--sons besides of Israel;
 
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mkgal1

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Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


If you want to disagree with the notes of the 1599 Geneva Bible, that it OK with me, but at least show the scripture in context.
Verse 29 switches to a parable.
About the Geneva Bible:

Quoting Ancient Faith: The early Christians were admonished to hold fast to Apostolic Tradition both in written and oral forms (2 Thessalonians 2:15), and to ensure its transmission to future generations (2 Timothy 1:13, 2:2). This is the biblical basis for capital “T” Tradition. Because of the early Church Fathers’ proximity to the Apostles and their commitment to the traditioning process, we can be confident that the patristic exegesis of Scripture is faithful to the Apostle’s understanding of what Scripture meant. In contrast to this, the Geneva Bible draws on an exegetical tradition that date back to the 1500s, i.e., the Protestant Reformation. In other words, the commentary texts of the Geneva Bible ground the reader in a theological tradition that much more recent than that of the Church Fathers. It then becomes a question why one would prefer a four hundred year old tradition over another that is almost two thousand years old. ~ Geneva Bible and Sola Scriptura - Orthodox Reformed Bridge
It's ironic to me that you accuse me of not taking this Scripture into context - when you rip it out of the context in which it was spoken from Jesus. Jesus didn't change the subject when He spoke the parable of the fig tree. That parable was a support of what He was telling them.

ETA - I just learned more about the Geneva Study Bible.
Some history:


Quoting from link:

The history of the Plymouth Brethren dates back to the early nineteenth century in England where there was growing dissatisfaction within the Anglican Church. As a result of this feeling, a number of independent gatherings sprang up spontaneously in which men and women met together in a fellowship based upon the teachings of the New Testament and centred on the celebration of the Lord’s Supper (Holy Communion). This brotherly fellowship or “Brethren” rejected an ecclesiastical arrangement and focused instead on the individual’s direct relationship with God and the emphasis this placed on personal responsibility. They met in simple meeting rooms for the Lord’s Supper and to join in prayer and preach the gospel.

By 1829 the first permanent meetings had been formed and the participants adopted the name Plymouth Brethren from the city of Plymouth, in southern England, where
some of the most prominent new teachers were to be found. Foremost amongst these was John Nelson Darby, who was instrumental in forming new congregations in England, Ireland and throughout continental Europe.
http://www.plymouthbrethrenchristianchurch.org/about/
 
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mkgal1

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You have also failed to explain why we are not now in the times of the Gentiles.
No, I have explained it. It is just that it doesn't agree with your theology (and - as I've pointed out - you are conflating passages that are of different/separate topics. That is where your confusion is.)

We aren't in "the times of the Gentiles" ("ethnos") because we aren't the first century believers waiting for the relief that came from the end of the Zealots, Galileans, Idumeans, etc trampling their city. Fortunately, God only had *them* waiting for 42 months......not thousands of years. He was giving them the signs to look for in order for them to *escape* (does it make sense that we would *want* to escape His future coming?) Would "fleeing to the hills" allow us to "escape" His judgement? Why would Jesus be teaching a group of people over 2000 years ago to watch for specific signs that wouldn't happen in their lifetime (even though He said - specifically - they would)? Wouldn't that make Jesus a false prophet with that sort of reasoning?

Revelation 11:2 ~ But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

Isaiah 5:5
Now I will tell you what I am about to do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it will be consumed; I will tear down its wall, and
it will be trampled.

Daniel 8:13
Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long until the fulfillment of the vision of the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host to be trampled?"

Daniel 12:7
And the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by Him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been shattered, all these things will be completed."
 
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Douggg

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Daniel 12:1
"And in that time/season Michael shall stand-up, the great chief prince, the one standing over sons of thy people. And becomes a time of distress<06869>, which not occurred since to become of a nation until that time. And in that time, thy people escape<4422>, everyone being found written in the scroll. [Luke 21:23-36]
Daniel 12 is time of the end, when knowledge and travel increased. Our generation. This point in time in history.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
Grotius Believed in the First-Century Return Of Christ

Hugo Grotius 1583 – 1645
FIRST PROTESTANT TO ADOPT MODERN PRETERIST THEOLOGY

“Christ, if I am capable of discerning any thing, distinctly answers two distinct questions. – The coming of Christ many do not distinguish from the end of the world, being, I apprehend, deceived by the ambiguity of the word; for it is most certain, that the word parousia [or coming] has a diversity of acceptation. –
here interpret it, not of the Judgment, but of THE KINGDOM of the Messiah.”
Perhaps belief in 2 parousias, the first taking place in 66 AD, is not that heretical. It may actually explain some difficult verses i the NT.
Hello Andrewn. Interesting view.

I did a study on the word "parousia<3952>" some years back and as every knows by now well knows, it is used in only 4 verses of the Gospels, all in Matt 24.

Matthew 24:

3 Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-consummation<4930> of the Age?
27 “For even as the lightning<796> is coming out from east and is appearing till of west, thus shall be the parousia of the Son of the Man.
37 “even as the days of Noah, thus shall be the parousia of Son of Man be.
39 “and not they know till came the flood and takes away all. Thus shall be the parousia of the Son of the Man.

3776. ousia from the feminine of 5607; substance, i.e. property (possessions):--goods, substance.
3962. pater apparently a primary word; a "father" (literally or figuratively, near or more remote):--father, parent.
3952. parousia from the present participle of 3918; a being near, i.e. advent (often, return;
===============================
This verse in Peter is the only one that uses "day of God" which is used in only 2 verses of the entire Bible. [tho the phrase "the Day of the Lord" is used many times] and is used in Revelation concerning Armageddon/Gog-Magog............

Jesus is indeed the Lord God Almighty in the flesh as the Son of Man.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
"day of god" occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the NKJV.

2 Peter 3:12
toward expectation and hastening the parousian<3952> of the day of the God, by which heavens, being fired<1448> shall being dissolved/loosed<3089> dissolved, and elements being burned<2741> is being melted<5082>

Revelation 16:14
For they are spirits of demons, doing sings which is going out on the kings of the whole inhabited-house/land/oikoumenhV <3625>to be mobilizing/leading them into the battle of the great day of God Almighty.
======================================
Verses showing the various forms of G3952 with emphasis on the "parousia of Jesus"


παρουσία — 6x παρουσίᾳ — 9x παρουσίαν — 3x παρουσίας — 6x

παρουσία/parousiaV<3952> — 6x
Parsing: Genitive Feminine Singular

Matthew 24:3
Philippians 1:26
2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8
James 5:7
2 Peter 3:4

Matthew 24:3
And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, 'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of Thy parousiaV
and of the full end of the age?'
Philippians 1:26
that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my parousiaV to you again.
2 Thessalonians 2:
1 - And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the parousiaV of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him,
8 - and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of His parousiaV
James 5:7
Be patient, then, brethren, till the parousiaV of the Lord;
behold the husbandman doth expect the precious fruit of the earth, being patient for it, till he may receive rain -- early and latter;
2 Peter 3:4 - and saying, 'Where is the promise of His parousiaV?
for since the fathers did fall asleep, all things so remain from the beginning of the creation;'
========================================
παρουσία/parousia<3952> — 6x
Parsing: Nominative Feminine Singular

Matthew 24:27, 37, 39
2 Corinthians 10:10
2 Thessalonians 2:9
James 5:8

Matthew 24:
27 “For even as the lightning<796> is coming out from east and is appearing till of west, thus shall be the parousia of the Son of the Man.
37 “even as the days of Noah, thus shall be the parousia of Son of Man be.
39 “and not they know till came the flood and takes away all. Thus shall be the parousia of the Son of the Man.

2 Corinthians 10:10
'that the letters indeed appearing weighty and strong,
yet the parousia of the body weak, and the saying having been scorned.'

2 Thessalonians 2:9
him, whose parousia is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,

James 5:8

be ye patient!, also stand-fast the hearts of ye, that the Parousia of the Lord has-neared<1448>
==============================
παρουσίᾳ<3952> — 9x

Parsing: Dative Feminine Singular
1 Corinthians 15:23
1 Corinthians 16:17
2 Corinthians 7:6, 7
Philippians 2:12
1 Thessalonians 2:19
1 Thessalonians 3:13
1 Thessalonians 5:23
1 John 2:28

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 and each in their proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ’s, in His parousia, 24 then the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power
1 Corinthians 16:17
and I rejoice over the parousia<3952> of Stephanas, and Fortunatus, and Achaicus, because the lack of you did these fill up;
2 Corinthians 7:
6 - but He who is comforting the cast-down -- God -- He did comfort us in the parousia of Titus;
7 and not only in his parousia, but also in the comfort with which he was comforted over you, declaring to us your longing desire, your lamentation, your zeal for me, so that the more I did rejoice,

Philippians 2:12
So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my parousia only, but now much more in my absence, with fear and trembling your own salvation work out,

1 Thessalonians 2:19
for what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? are not even ye before our Lord Jesus Christ in His parousia<3952>?
1 Thessalonians 3:13
to the establishing your hearts blameless in sanctification before our God and Father, in the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameble in the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ

1 John 2:28
And now, little children, remain in Him, that when he may be manifested, we may have boldness, and may not be ashamed before him, in His parousia;
================================
παρουσίαν/parousian <3952> — 3x
Parsing: Accusative Feminine Singular

1 Thessalonians 4:15
2 Peter 1:16
2 Peter 3:12

1 Thessalonians 4:15
for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the parousian of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep
2 Peter 1:16
For, skillfully devised fables not having followed out, we did make known to you the power and parousian of our Lord Jesus Christ, but eye-witnesses having become of his majesty --
2 Peter 3:12
toward expectation and hastening the parousian of the day of the God, by which heavens, being fired<1448> shall being dissolved/loosed<3089> dissolved, and elements being burned<2741> is being melted<5082>
 
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mkgal1

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So you are saying this did NOT happen as written?:

40 “Therefore, when the lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”



So Jesus is NOT the Stone that came and ground them to powder?
If not Him, Then WHO is the stone??



It's simple to demonstrate that Even you don't believe his future "return" will be "in the same way that he left":

Jesus handed out no rewards or punishment when he left.
Do you assert His return will be "in the same way"?

His ascension was only visible to a handful of people.
Do you assert His return will be "in the same way"

He was not accompanied by an angelic army when He left.
Do you assert His return will be "in the same way"?

Perhaps you might rephrase that assertion to better reflect your actual beliefs?

His visible return is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10.
Did this text occur during 70 AD?


.
BABerean, I have noticed that you have a habit of answering questions with more questions, but never really answer. This seems like a diversion from the questions Parousia70 asked.
 
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mkgal1

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I just came across this article today, by Hank Hanegraaff:

When I say that Jesus is coming again, remember that every time you hear the word “coming” in Scripture you don’t have to assume that that has to do specifically with the Second Coming of Christ. Sometimes it does because Hebrews says that Jesus is coming a second time. However, it doesn’t always have to do with the Second Coming because “coming” is used as a judgment metaphor in Scripture as well. So when Jesus said to Caiaphas in the court that’s condemning him to death “But I say to all of you, in the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven,” a biblically illiterate person might have missed the import of his words, but Caiaphas and the council did not. If ever there was a razor-sharp metaphor, this was it, and it cut Caiaphas and the court condemning Christ to the quick. They understood that in saying he was the Son of Man that would come on the clouds of heaven, Jesus was making an overt reference to his coronation as the Son of Man in Daniel’s vision. You’ll remember that vision in Daniel 7. ~ https://www.equip.org/hank_speaks_o...H-aai5mmmnqWvjqNC8EQ0LdwASCI2-HW5DATlYuFg_2LE
 
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mkgal1

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To which I'd responded that you seem to only be agreeing that Matthew 21 was fulfilled in the sense that God is everywhere.


In the sense that God fulfilled Matt 21:40-44 in 70 A D. Although I wasn't referring to what's "necessary".

The Father most certainly used the Romans to destroy those wicked men in Matthew chapter 21, during 70 AD.

Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

.
Matthew 16:28
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Matthew 24:30
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Matthew 25:31
When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne.

Mark 13:26
At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Luke 21:27
At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
 
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