Vicarious Law-keeping?

WordSword

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Believers are not intended to walk within the Law for their righteousness, for it is only Christ and His work that brings one to rebirth and which imputes His righteousness! Surly there is nothing more hindering to Christian spiritual growth (but not to receiving salvation itself) than to misapprehend the intention of the Law concerning its purpose and application (which knowledge will probably not become common enough in Christendom until the translation of the Church)! It has been accurately stated that “The New Testament is "enfolded" in the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is "unfolded" in the New! It must be well understood though, that this has only to do with the individual identification and purpose of each system, and that neither have application to the other beyond the types and shadows of what God will do and has done concerning the salvation of believers.

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us” does not design the motive that the Law is fulfilled in the believer, but that the righteousness—to which the Law directs—“condemn sin” and deliverance in Christ (which “the Law could not do” - Ro 8:3—NC), is fulfilled in the believer! The Law was not intended for deliverance (not even for Israel to whom only it ever applied) but only to identify and reveal guilt of sin, and rather direct one to deliverance (Gal 3:24). It was in the sacrificial ordinances and not obedience to the Decalogue that forgiveness was obtained (Num 15:24-31); which ordinances had only Christ’s sacrifice in mind, and it is here where deliverance is “finished” or completed! The purpose of obedience to the Decalogue was to manifest faith in God and His commands, especially concerning the ordinance of the sin-offering, which alone brought forgiveness.

The same applies to Christian obedience, because obedience does not deliver but manifests there has been deliverance, for there must first be deliverance before than can be true obedience, because it requires the right heart in the obedience (new nature after Christ’s nature - Col 3:10). One walking “in the Spirit” with the “new man” or new nature, glorifies God in manifesting that salvation has been applied to the soul only because of what Christ has done, and this provides for us to ask God for faith in His Son and His work.

Also, please excuse the excessive cementations below, due to what I feel are issue-pertinent, thanks!

NC





Vicarious Law-keeping?


“Even so through the obedience of One” (Rom 5:19). This was our Lord’s death, as an act of obedience: “He became obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross” (Phl 2:8). He was of course always obedient to His Father, but it cannot be too strongly emphasized that His life before the Cross—His “active obedience,” as it is called, is not in any sense counted to us for righteousness. “I delivered to you,” says Paul, “first of all that Christ died for our sins” (1Cor 15:3).

Before His death He was “holy, guileless, undefiled and separate from sinners” (Heb 7:26). He Himself said, “Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone; but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit” (Jhn 12:24). Do you not see that those who claim that our Lord’s righteous life under Moses’s Law is reckoned to us for our “active righteousness; while His death in which He put away our sins, is, as they claim, the “passive” side, are really leaving you, and the Lord too, under the authority of the Law?

“Justified in His Blood,” and of that alone, reveals the direct lie to the claim that man must have an “active righteousness” (self-works—NC) as well as a “passive righteousness” (Christ’s works—NC). The specious assertion is, that “inasmuch as we have all broken the Law (even though God says that Gentiles were ‘without law’—and those in Christ are not under it) and inasmuch as man cannot by his works himself recover his righteous standing, Christ came and kept the Law in man’s place; Then He went to the Cross, and suffered the penalty of death for man’s guilt so that the result is an ‘active righteousness’ reckoned to man—that is, Christ’s keeping of the Law in man’s place; and second, a ‘passive righteousness,’ which consists of the putting away all guilt by the Blood of Christ.

Now, the awful thing here is the unbelief concerning man’s irrecoverable state before God (self-works being applied for redemption and not because of redemption is the same as demonstrating works-salvation. It’s Christ only, as our works should show—NC). For not only must Christ’s Blood be shed in expiation for our guilt; but we had to die with Christ. We were connected with the old Adam; and the old man—all we had and were in Adam, must be crucified—if we were to be “joined to Another, even to Him that was raised from the dead” (all of which are far from the workings of the Law – Ro 8:3—NC). Theological teaching since the Reformation has never set forth clearly our utter end in our death with Christ on the Cross (which answers to the reason why so much attention is given to the admixture of Judaism and Christianity, i.e. the Judeo-Christian concept. This is acceptable if the meaning here is proselytizing from Judaism to Christianity, which was the initial intent of meaning. But to conceive of amalgamating the two systems would result, if were possible, in detracting force from both—NC).

The fatal result of this terrible error is to leave the Law as claimant over those in Christ: for “law has dominion over a man as long as he liveth” (Rom 7:1). Unless you are able to believe in your heart that you died with Christ, that you old man was crucified with Him (Rom 6:6), and that you were buried, and that your history before god in Adam the first came to an utter end at Calvary, you will never get free from the claims of Law upon your conscience. Such is the plight of Reformed theology. Both Calvinists and Arminians think that the flesh (old man; Adamic sinful nature of one’s spirit—NC) is not so bad that it cannot be acted on for God by Christ using the Law of God and giving it power through the Spirit (I am still researching if these two doctrines believe this claim—NC).

The ascended Lord Jesus Christ is our righteousness. His earthly Life under the Law is not our righteousness. We have no connection with a Christ on earth and under Law. We are expressly told in Romans 7:1-6 that even Jewish believers who have been under the Law were “made dead to the Law by the body of Christ, that they might be joined to Another, even to Him who was raised from the dead” (Rom 7:4).

It is only the desperate legality of man’s heart, his self-confidence, that make him drag in and cling to the Law—even though Christ must fulfill it for him (leaving self out of any credit for salvation is the only true faith within Christ-only-salvation—NC)! Vicarious Law-keeping is Galatian heresy! Christianity begins with the resurrection (spiritual resurrection from sin and death—NC).


- W R N (William R Newell 1927–1992)
 
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Believers are not intended to walk within the Law for their righteousness, for it is only Christ and His work that brings one to rebirth and which imputes His righteousness! Surly there is nothing more hindering to Christian spiritual growth (but not to receiving salvation itself) than to misapprehend the intention of the Law concerning its purpose and application (which knowledge will probably not become common enough in Christendom until the translation of the Church)! It has been accurately stated that “The New Testament is "enfolded" in the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is "unfolded" in the New! It must be well understood though, that this has only to do with the individual identification and purpose of each system, and that neither have application to the other beyond the types and shadows of what God will do and has done concerning the salvation of believers.

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us” does not design the motive that the Law is fulfilled in the believer, but that the righteousness—to which the Law directs—“condemn sin” and deliverance in Christ (which “the Law could not do” - Ro 8:3—NC), is fulfilled in the believer! The Law was not intended for deliverance (not even for Israel to whom only it ever applied) but only to identify and reveal guilt of sin, and rather direct one to deliverance (Gal 3:24). It was in the sacrificial ordinances and not obedience to the Decalogue that forgiveness was obtained (Num 15:24-31); which ordinances had only Christ’s sacrifice in mind, and it is here where deliverance is “finished” or completed! The purpose of obedience to the Decalogue was to manifest faith in God and His commands, especially concerning the ordinance of the sin-offering, which alone brought forgiveness.

The same applies to Christian obedience, because obedience does not deliver but manifests there has been deliverance, for there must first be deliverance before than can be true obedience, because it requires the right heart in the obedience (new nature after Christ’s nature - Col 3:10). One walking “in the Spirit” with the “new man” or new nature, glorifies God in manifesting that salvation has been applied to the soul only because of what Christ has done, and this provides for us to ask God for faith in His Son and His work.

Also, please excuse the excessive cementations below, due to what I feel are issue-pertinent, thanks!
NC






Vicarious Law-keeping?


“Even so through the obedience of One” (Rom 5:19). This was our Lord’s death, as an act of obedience: “He became obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross” (Phl 2:8). He was of course always obedient to His Father, but it cannot be too strongly emphasized that His life before the Cross—His “active obedience,” as it is called, is not in any sense counted to us for righteousness. “I delivered to you,” says Paul, “first of all that Christ died for our sins” (1Cor 15:3).

Before His death He was “holy, guileless, undefiled and separate from sinners” (Heb 7:26). He Himself said, “Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone; but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit” (Jhn 12:24). Do you not see that those who claim that our Lord’s righteous life under Moses’s Law is reckoned to us for our “active righteousness; while His death in which He put away our sins, is, as they claim, the “passive” side, are really leaving you, and the Lord too, under the authority of the Law?

“Justified in His Blood,” and of that alone, reveals the direct lie to the claim that man must have an “active righteousness” (self-works—NC) as well as a “passive righteousness” (Christ’s works—NC). The specious assertion is, that “inasmuch as we have all broken the Law (even though God says that Gentiles were ‘without law’—and those in Christ are not under it) and inasmuch as man cannot by his works himself recover his righteous standing, Christ came and kept the Law in man’s place; Then He went to the Cross, and suffered the penalty of death for man’s guilt so that the result is an ‘active righteousness’ reckoned to man—that is, Christ’s keeping of the Law in man’s place; and second, a ‘passive righteousness,’ which consists of the putting away all guilt by the Blood of Christ.

Now, the awful thing here is the unbelief concerning man’s irrecoverable state before God (self-works being applied for redemption and not because of redemption is the same as demonstrating works-salvation. It’s Christ only, as our works should show—NC). For not only must Christ’s Blood be shed in expiation for our guilt; but we had to die with Christ. We were connected with the old Adam; and the old man—all we had and were in Adam, must be crucified—if we were to be “joined to Another, even to Him that was raised from the dead” (all of which are far from the workings of the Law – Ro 8:3—NC). Theological teaching since the Reformation has never set forth clearly our utter end in our death with Christ on the Cross (which answers to the reason why so much attention is given to the admixture of Judaism and Christianity, i.e. the Judeo-Christian concept. This is acceptable if the meaning here is proselytizing from Judaism to Christianity, which was the initial intent of meaning. But to conceive of amalgamating the two systems would result, if were possible, in detracting force from both—NC).

The fatal result of this terrible error is to leave the Law as claimant over those in Christ: for “law has dominion over a man as long as he liveth” (Rom 7:1). Unless you are able to believe in your heart that you died with Christ, that you old man was crucified with Him (Rom 6:6), and that you were buried, and that your history before god in Adam the first came to an utter end at Calvary, you will never get free from the claims of Law upon your conscience. Such is the plight of Reformed theology. Both Calvinists and Arminians think that the flesh (old man; Adamic sinful nature of one’s spirit—NC) is not so bad that it cannot be acted on for God by Christ using the Law of God and giving it power through the Spirit (I am still researching if these two doctrines believe this claim—NC).

The ascended Lord Jesus Christ is our righteousness. His earthly Life under the Law is not our righteousness. We have no connection with a Christ on earth and under Law. We are expressly told in Romans 7:1-6 that even Jewish believers who have been under the Law were “made dead to the Law by the body of Christ, that they might be joined to Another, even to Him who was raised from the dead” (Rom 7:4).

It is only the desperate legality of man’s heart, his self-confidence, that make him drag in and cling to the Law—even though Christ must fulfill it for him (leaving self out of any credit for salvation is the only true faith within Christ-only-salvation—NC)! Vicarious Law-keeping is Galatian heresy! Christianity begins with the resurrection (spiritual resurrection from sin and death—NC).


- W R N (William R Newell 1927–1992)

We are not under the Law of Moses (the 613 as a whole or contract), but we are under a New Covenant (New Testament) with new commands. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. I believe we must obey God's laws after we are saved by God's grace. This would be New Covenant Law and not Old Covenant Law. This obedience to God's laws a part of Sanctification process by the Spirit in living holy in this life. I believe both God's grace through faith in Jesus (and believing in his death and resurrection and seeking forgiveness with Him), and Sanctification play a part of the salvation process. But going back to the Old Law to be justified is dangerous and Paul had many warnings against such a thing. Meaning, the Saturday Sabbath is not a command that we have to keep as a part of being saved, and neither is circumcision, or the dietary laws, etc.; We are to follow God's Eternal Moral Laws (like loving God, and loving others), and we are to follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

But to be clear, this does not mean we get a free pass to ignore God's Eternal Moral Laws (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, etc.), and or to ignore New Covenant Law as a part of being in God's Kingdom. The focus of the New Covenant is loving God and loving others. If we are not doing that, we are not in a right relationship with the Lord. if we are not in a right relationship with the Lord, then how can we have eternal life without the Son? (See: 1 John 5:12). So while we are not under the Old Covenant Law of Moses, we are under the New Covenant and it's commands as a part of eternal life. If not, then we can live like devils and just believe on Jesus and glorify ourselves (and not God). But surely this is not how things should be.
 
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WordSword

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We are not under the Law of Moses (the 613 as a whole or contract)
Hi and appreciate your reply and comments, with which I pretty much agree! Though Israel was the sole nation under the Law of Moses, they are now without it, and Gentiles were never under it, so the position of the Christian is a matter of grace, which to me means one who is reborn will eventually and unavoidably live by Christ's life (Col 3:4) which is according to God's "work" in you" (Phl 2:13), which is all within "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus."

but we are under a New Covenant (New Testament) with new commands.
I like the way you presented this part, but that being said I see the New Covenant so different that it's nothing similar to law of the Old because there is no law concerning those walking in the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22, 23). Law can mean to restrict, or just mean a principle, of which I'm in reference to the latter for those reborn.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
To me the "change" means its "removal" (Heb 10:9).

I believe we must obey God's laws after we are saved by God's grace.
If we're born again we will "desire and do of His good pleasure." This is the outward evidence of faith, and the evidence of unbelief (unregenerate or not reborn) is not desiring His pleasure.
 
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Hi and appreciate your reply and comments,

Thank you for being kind and respectful. It is a joy to talk with believers who are nice (even if we may not agree on all things).

You said:
with which I pretty much agree!

Hmmm, not so sure about that, my friend. I believe in Synergism and Conditional Salvation. I believe we are saved by God's grace through faith (in accepting Jesus as our Savior, and in believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf, and in seeking forgiveness with Him) + Sanctification by the Spirit (i.e. Holy living and or doing good works and putting away grievous sin out of our lives in this life via by the power of GOD working in us). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). I believe that a saint can die spiritually if they do not confess grievous sin (like murder, hate, adultery, lust, coveting, lying, etc.) before they die. So if a believer lies or lusts after a woman and they get hit by a bus, they are not going to make it into God's Kingdom. This would even include me. For I am not above God's Word. I believe we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Granted, this does not mean we cannot have a rest in God, though.

You said:
Though Israel was the sole nation under the Law of Moses, they are now without it, and Gentiles were never under it,

We agree on this point.

You said:
so the position of the Christian is a matter of grace, which to me means one who is reborn will eventually and unavoidably live by Christ's life (Col 3:4) which is according to God's "work" in you" (Phl 2:13), which is all within "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus."

While Philippians 2:13 and Colossians 3:4 does apply to the born again believer, I don't believe these verses are exhaustive statements for all those who have been born again.

While being born again does affect the life of a believer, I do not believe the regenerative state means that they are going to be "love robots" (see following note) to God the rest of their life. A born again believer still needs to choose this day in whom they will serve every day. Yes, they may have more of a desire to worship God than an unbeliever, and they will have a love, joy, and peace that the unbeliever does not have, but they are not forced against their will down the path of doing God's will always. They can still be deceived by sin and be destroyed by the devil. Plus, there are many verses that tell us that we need to endure to the end to be saved, or to overcome, etc.

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).​

We are told to:

  1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

  2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

  3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Why would we be told to do these things if the regenerative state meant we would be love robots who would endure to the end automatically?

Note:

Please take note that when I say "love robots" I am not trying to be sarcastic, but I am merely using such words as a helpful illustration to help you to see where I am coming from. So I hope you do not take such words with any disrespect. Such a thing was never my intention by such words. It is truly my mission and focus to love all people (even my enemies).

Also, the Bible mentions how there are those who are twice dead and they are plucked up by the roots in Jude. A person can only be twice dead spiritually if they accepted the Lord and were saved and then they died again via by sin or apostasy. A person can only be plucked up by the roots if they had the root of God's saving Word within them at one time.

You said:
I like the way you presented this part, but that being said I see the New Covenant so different that it's nothing similar to law of the Old because there is no law concerning those walking in the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22, 23). Law can mean to restrict, or just mean a principle, of which I'm in reference to the latter for those reborn.

Galatians 5:22-23 is not encouraging the believer to ignore God's laws in the New Covenant or not to focus on them. If such were the case, then there would be no commands in the New Testament. By my count so far over the past few years, there are approximately 450 explicit commands in the New Testament (and this is still being reviewed meticulously). Paul says that what he has written should be regarded as the Lord's commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Galatians 5:22-23 is merely saying that there is nothing against the fruits of the Spirit. There is no law against the fruits of the Spirit given to to a believer. So we should bring forth fruits worthy of repentance as John the Baptist says (Matthew 3:8). Is it a salvation issue? Yes. You betcha. Verse 10 says this:

"And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (Matthew 3:10).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

You said:
To me the "change" means its "removal" (Heb 10:9).

The blood of goats and bulls never permanently took away sin. They were only a temporary form of atonement. They had to keep revisiting the same past sins every year to have atonement coupled with the fact that they were seeking forgiveness with the Lord with a godly sorrow. The animal sacrifices were a picture or type pointing to the ultimate sacrifice (Jesus Christ) who would forever take away man's sin problem so as to offer him the free gift of eternal life (if they choose to meet the conditions or terms of agreement in Scripture for receiving and owning that gift). The new contract or New Covenant (i.e. New Testament) began with Christ's death and it started a New way of living for God. The penalty of sin has not been removed if a believer sins again. For Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins. So a believer needs to confess sins to Jesus to be forgiven of sin (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9), and they need to forsake sin (1 John 1:7) as a part of applying the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to our lives. For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (See: Proverbs 28:13).

You said:
If we're born again we will "desire and do of His good pleasure." This is the outward evidence of faith, and the evidence of unbelief (unregenerate or not reborn) is not desiring His pleasure.

In a manner of speaking this would be true. A born again believer will seek to please God, but if they do evil or they sin, they can fall away and become unregenerate and dead spiritually to the things of God again. They may believe that Jesus is the Savior, etc. but if they go prodigal into a life of sin, they are not saved. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son: We learn that when the son came home and he sought forgiveness with his father, his father said that he was "dead" and he is now "alive again." The father said this two times, and he also said his son was "lost" and now he is "found." The parable is speaking in spiritual terms. The son was dead spiritually when he was living his life away from the father and he was living in sin. James 5:19-20 also speaks of the same truth, as well.

Anyways, I pray you will check out these verses more closely in prayer.

In any event, may God bless you, and may you please be well this fine day that the Lord has made.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ J.
 
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WordSword

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Thank you for being kind and respectful. It is a joy to talk with believers who are nice (even if we may not agree on all things).
I agree, and I also appreciate your kindness in our communications! You can tell if one is probably seeking truth and not just support for what we believe is truth, which is a blinder and can delay our search. Doctrine is easier to determine when it is Bible-based and not experience-based, by which many are often swayed by the latter because of leaning on too much of what is taught and said instead of a regular ongoing reading of the Word (esp. the NT).

, not so sure about that, my friend. I believe in Synergism and Conditional Salvation.
The former doctrine is the same in which I also believe, otherwise everyone would be saved because it's God's desire that all be saved. The concept that God chooses (and not the person) who will be saved is too confusing because it leaves one to suspect Him of being a "respect of persons," which of course is not possible. The latter doctrine I believe is quite insecure to me because it does not understand that when one is reborn, God keeps Him there, which is where I think the majority of confusion exists. This means of course that the most important growth doctrine is the least accepted, and thus has this lack of understanding delayed most from growth in being fully God-dependent apart from any self-dependence.

If God says He "works in you to will and do of His good pleasure," and it doesn't come to pass permanently, I believe we are left with only two reasons: God cannot always perform this in everyone (impossible reason), or the individual has never been reborn, which are the only ones in whom He "works" (Phl 2:13); and this promise is to all who have been reborn!

God bless your Family and God be blessed!
 
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I agree, and I also appreciate your kindness in our communications! You can tell if one is probably seeking truth and not just support for what we believe is truth, which is a blinder and can delay our search. Doctrine is easier to determine when it is Bible-based and not experience-based, by which many are often swayed by the latter because of leaning on too much of what is taught and said instead of a regular ongoing reading of the Word (esp. the NT).


The former doctrine is the same in which I also believe, otherwise everyone would be saved because it's God's desire that all be saved. The concept that God chooses (and not the person) who will be saved is too confusing because it leaves one to suspect Him of being a "respect of persons," which of course is not possible. The latter doctrine I believe is quite insecure to me because it does not understand that when one is reborn, God keeps Him there, which is where I think the majority of confusion exists. This means of course that the most important growth doctrine is the least accepted, and thus has this lack of understanding delayed most from growth in being fully God-dependent apart from any self-dependence.

If God says He "works in you to will and do of His good pleasure," and it doesn't come to pass permanently, I believe we are left with only two reasons: God cannot always perform this in everyone (impossible reason), or the individual has never been reborn, which are the only ones in whom He "works" (Phl 2:13); and this promise is to all who have been reborn!

God bless your Family and God be blessed!

Well, if Sanctification does not involve both the working of God and man, then it's no longer Synergism, but it is more Monergism (i.e. our free will is then removed).

Anyways, may you and your family be blessed, as well.
 
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Well, if Sanctification does not involve both the working of God and man, then it's no longer Synergism, but it is more Monergism (i.e. our free will is then removed).

Anyways, may you and your family be blessed, as well.
My belief concerning "sanctification" is pretty much the same as holiness, it's all completely imputed at rebirth. I believe sanctification is often confused (not suspecting any individual) with "conformation" (not confirmation), which has to do with our walk and not our completed redemption in salvation. It's my understanding that the ongoing conforming of our "walk, even as He walked" (1Jo 2:6) manifests that we are sanctified.

Since the state of the reborn is now eternal life, the only earthly issue that remains in the believer's life is continued growth in our walk, not in our salvation, which does not admit in degrees as "to be conformed" in our walk does (Ro 8:29). Believer's are already conformed to Christ in being now in the son-ship of Christ, and I have yet to see Scripture use the word sanctification in any way but our completed salvation, and is always used in the present tense because we are fully sanctified and holy in Christ's holiness imputed but not imparted, same as righteousness is imputed not imparted (e.g. Rom 4:22).

Blessings!
 
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My belief concerning "sanctification" is pretty much the same as holiness, it's all completely imputed at rebirth. I believe sanctification is often confused (not suspecting any individual) with "conformation" (not confirmation), which has to do with our walk and not our completed redemption in salvation. It's my understanding that the ongoing conforming of our "walk, even as He walked" (1Jo 2:6) manifests that we are sanctified.

Since the state of the reborn is now eternal life, the only earthly issue that remains in the believer's life is continued growth in our walk, not in our salvation, which does not admit in degrees as "to be conformed" in our walk does (Ro 8:29). Believer's are already conformed to Christ in being now in the son-ship of Christ, and I have yet to see Scripture use the word sanctification in any way but our completed salvation, and is always used in the present tense because we are fully sanctified and holy in Christ's holiness imputed but not imparted, same as righteousness is imputed not imparted (e.g. Rom 4:22).

Blessings!

But that's not the true imputation of Christ's sacrifice according to the Bible.
1 John 1:7 is the true imputation of Christ's sacrifice for our lives.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).​

So we have to walk in the light in order to have the blood of Jesus cleanse us from all sin according to 1 John 1:7. Please read this verse above several times very slowly. That is what 1 John 1:7 is plainly saying (unless you don't like what it says and you therefore will seek out some re-interpretation on this verse to make it say something totally foreign to how it normally reads).

Also, what is "walking in the light"?

1 John 2:9-11 gives us the answer and it implies strongly that "walking in the light" = loving your brother because it says that anyone who hates his brother is walking in darkness (verse 11) (i.e. the opposite of walking in the light).

1 John 3:15 takes it one step farther and says that whoever hates his brother is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 3:10 says that the person who is of God does righteousness and loves His brother. This is how we know the difference between a person of God and one who is not of God.

Loving your brother is loving your neighbor.

Paul says that loving your neighbor is the equivalent of keeping the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) (See Romans 13:8-10).

This means we have to keep the "Moral Law" as a part of eternal life after we are saved by God's grace. God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). Titus 2:11-12 tells us that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. So if this is the case, then God's grace does not teach us to have a safety net to sin or to minimize the consequences of sin because we got a guaranteed ticket to His Kingdom. God's grace does not teach that. God's grace leads to holiness (See also Ephesians 5:25-27).
 
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But that's not the true imputation of Christ's sacrifice according to the Bible.
1 John 1:7 is the true imputation of Christ's sacrifice for our lives.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).​

So we have to walk in the light in order to have the blood of Jesus cleanse us from all sin according to 1 John 1:7.
My interpretation is that "If we are walking in the light," it shows we are Blood-cleansed, i.e. we will be walking in the light since we are cleansed, because without the cleansing we cannot walk in the light. The work of God always precedes the fruit in the walk. The Spirit's fruit never originates from anywhere but Him. We have to be made righteous before we can live righteous. Right?
 
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Just to summarize my opinion, Jesus’ perfect fulfillment of the Law was not to credit His righteousness in the Law to believers, but to manifest His qualification of being the perfect, spotless sacrifice for us, and to manifest that He is the only One righteous. The righteousness with which believers are imputed is from the righteousness He has always possessed; which does not derive from works (He didn't need to do the works of the Law to be righteous but to manifest that He is righteous), but are always part of being Divine, and is why righteousness, holiness, etc. have to be imputed, because these attributes of God are incommunicable to man and must be imputed (credited).
 
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My interpretation is that "If we are walking in the light," it shows we are Blood-cleansed, i.e. we will be walking in the light since we are cleansed, because without the cleansing we cannot walk in the light. The work of God always precedes the fruit in the walk. The Spirit's fruit never originates from anywhere but Him. We have to be made righteous before we can live righteous. Right?

Well, first, nowhere did I suggest there is no work of God (Which would naturally come from His grace) to change our heart spiritually. I said in post #6 that we are saved by both God’s grace through faith in Christ (i.e. accepting Christ as our Savior, believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf, and in seeking forgiveness with Him), and by Sanctification (Holy Living via by the working of God through us). So I am not suggesting that a person can obey God or walk in the light without God’s grace through faith in Christ. God’s grace must come first, and after that is Sanctification or walking in the light.

Second, you said 1 John 1:7 says that we are already cleansed. This is not what 1 John 1:7 says, friend. Receiving Christ for the first time wipes your past slate clean in order to walk in the light or in His righteous ways. But we are also told continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews) See: Romans 11:21-22). 1 John 1:7 does not say that you have already been cleansed. It does not say “those believers who walk in the light have already been blood bought beforehand.” That is what you desire it to say, but it does not say that.

1 John 1:7 says, “If we walk...”
I am gonna stop right here because this is telling believers that they have a choice here with the word “if.” It would be like telling you in a letter “if you walk in dark caverns, please make sure you carry a light of some kind with you.” But it is not a guarantee that you will arrive to a dark cavern, and even if you do, it is still your free will choice to take my suggestion in bringing a light with you in such a dark and dangerous place. You could refuse my suggestion. The word “if” suggests a possibility. John is writing to believers and telling them “if” (Which is a possibility and not a guarantee). The “if” suggests to the reader (who is a believer) if they they walk in the light as being a possibility for them and not a guarantee. It essentially says if you walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses you of all sin. It says “if you walk in the light.” It doesn’t say “those who walk in the light.” It sets it as a possibility. If. If you go outside driving while the streets in your area are flooded, you may end up flooding your car. But the choice is yours to make because the word “if” is in there. So you are not reading 1 John 1:7 in how it is plainly written.

In other words, to help you to understand where I am coming from, please give me a word for word commentary on 1 John 1:7 in the KJV.

In any event, may God bless you (even if we disagree on this topic).
 
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Well, first, nowhere did I suggest there is no work of God (Which would naturally come from His grace) to change our heart spiritually.
Sorry yousaw it that way, but I didn't mean that you said that. Plus, I meant there is no work of man that can change the heart spiritually, but that those who walk in the work of God (grace) show they have been changed spiritually.

In other words, to help you to understand where I am coming from, please give me a word for word commentary on 1 John 1:7 in the KJV.
The Blood of Christ is applied during rebirth, which fully cleanses us from all our sin.

In any event, may God bless you (even if we disagree on this topic).
Thanks for saying this, I feel the same way!
 
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Sorry yousaw it that way, but I didn't mean that you said that. Plus, I meant there is no work of man that can change the heart spiritually, but that those who walk in the work of God (grace) show they have been changed spiritually.

While we are changed spiritually by the new birth, we are not forced against our own free will to endure to the end or to overcome because Scripture tells us that we need to overcome, endure, keep ourselves in the love of God, continue in the faith, continue in God's grace, etc. (See: Hebrews 3:13-14, James 1:12, Matthew 24:13, Revelation 2:7, Revelation 2:10, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 3:5, and Jude 1:21).

Important Note: Please hover your mouse over these verses to check them out.

The Blood of Christ is applied during rebirth, which fully cleanses us from all our sin.

Only past sin is cleansed when we come to Christ (See: 2 Peter 1:9). 1 John 1:7 says "IF we walk in the light, as He (Christ) is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin."

Please take note that the word "IF" appears in 1 John 1:7.

"IF" is a possibility and not a guarantee.

If we walk barefoot on glass, we will most likely cut ourselves.
If we swim in a pool of sharks with chum in it, we take a huge risk of being eaten.
If we release untrained poodles into our home and don't let them outside on time, we can expect hot piles brownie goodness all over our nice carpets.

See, the word "if" suggests a possibility and not a guarantee.
If you do this, X will happen.
if you do this, Y will happen, etc.

John is talking to the believer in 1 John 1:7 and he is telling them....

"IF you walk in the light."​

If things are as you say, then John would say,

"WHEN you walk in the light as a part of being regenerated,"​

But John does not say that. You are enforcing a belief upon 1 John 1:7 that simply does not exist. The word "if" cannot be there if what you said on 1 John 1:7 is true. Unless I am misunderstanding basic English, you need to please explain to me how 1 John 1:7 works with your belief here.
 
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While we are changed spiritually by the new birth, we are not forced against our own free will to endure to the end or to overcome because Scripture tells us that we need to overcome, endure, keep ourselves in the love of God, continue in the faith, continue in God's grace, etc. (See: Hebrews 3:13-14, James 1:12, Matthew 24:13, Revelation 2:7, Revelation 2:10, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 3:5, and Jude 1:21).
As we've learned, our understanding often varies, but also as we've established, that's okay. I believe it's very important that Christians learn to be able to share their beliefs with one another with only kindness, otherwise they are defeating the purpose of all Bible doctrine--God's love to one another.

Concerning perseverance, only one who is born of God can maintain continuance in the faith, for it is one of the primary evidences of being reborn (to me, one reborn can never again be otherwise), so these verses and all others like them teach that the evidence of being reborn is that one will never discontinue to walk in the doctrine of salvation, but rather ever grow form it. Those who show a temporary walk and discontinue evince they are not reborn, i.e. if we do not walk in the light it manifests we are not saved, and if we do walk in the light it manifests we are saved.

Only past sin is cleansed when we come to Christ (See: 2 Peter 1:9).
"But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins." To me this passage has the intention of conceiving that one who has been saved can forget his sins have been forgiven, denoting the past by "old," but my conception here is that its use of this word does not limit it to future, it just doesn't mention "new" sins which I think is not the sense, but that he has been saved unto the present and has not "given diligence" to what is involved in faith, e.g. 2Pe 1:5-7.

I believe Hebrews 10:10 is clear concerning all sin in the believers life, and this is the sense of "once for all," that the atonement of Christ can only be imparted only once, because there is no need of repetitious atonements as in the Law, which some heretical doctrines teach (e.g. Socinianism and other present day heresy--not suspecting any individual here). "For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time" (NLT).
 
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As we've learned, our understanding often varies, but also as we've established, that's okay. I believe it's very important that Christians learn to be able to share their beliefs with one another with only kindness, otherwise they are defeating the purpose of all Bible doctrine--God's love to one another.

Agreed.

You said:
Concerning perseverance, only one who is born of God can maintain continuance in the faith, for it is one of the primary evidences of being reborn (to me, one reborn can never again be otherwise), so these verses and all others like them teach that the evidence of being reborn is that one will never discontinue to walk in the doctrine of salvation, but rather ever grow form it. Those who show a temporary walk and discontinue evince they are not reborn, i.e. if we do not walk in the light it manifests we are not saved, and if we do walk in the light it manifests we are saved.

I believe it is redundant, or overkill, or contradictory to tell a believer to do the following things below if they will automatically do such things by the new birth.

  1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

  2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

  3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

  4. Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life (Jude 1:21).

  5. If we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end, … we are made partakers of Christ, (Hebrews 3:13-14).

  6. If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, … the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

  7. Jesus tells us, “Be faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life” (Revelation 2:10).

Do you need to tell a bird when it is mating season, or when to fly to the south for the winter? No. They need no such warnings, commands, or instructions, and they will by nature do these things. You want me to believe that we will do the above things naturally as a part of being born again, but that is not how these above verses are written. They are very specific instructions told to us in a way that allows room for free will in not doing them. If we walk in the light, if we hold the beginning of our confidence, continue in God's grace, continue in the faith, etc. Why tell me to continue in the faith if I will automatically do that as a part of the new birth? Why tell me to continue in God's grace if that is something I will automatically do as a part of the new birth? Again, the Bible is not written as it should be so as to line up with your belief here. If the believer will automatically walk in the light, why use the word "If" in regards to us believers "walking in the light."? The word "if" should not be there in 1 John 1:7 if your belief here is true that believers will automatically walk in the light. That would be like telling a bird, "Hey, bird, if you fly back home south for the winter, then X, Y, Z will happen for you...." But this would be nonsensical to tell a bird to do that because you know that the bird is going to automatically do such a thing. You know that the bird is going to fly south for the winter. Why did John give believers an "if" option suggesting a possibility when this is not the case (according to your belief)? In short, I still do not see how your belief holds true in line with what Scripture plainly says here.

You said:
"But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins." To me this passage has the intention of conceiving that one who has been saved can forget his sins have been forgiven, denoting the past by "old," but my conception here is that its use of this word does not limit it to future, it just doesn't mention "new" sins which I think is not the sense, but that he has been saved unto the present and has not "given diligence" to what is involved in faith, e.g. 2Pe 1:5-7.

No. Why mention "old sins" or "former sins" if even "future sins" (all sins) are forgiven, too? It makes no sense. Peter would push for how they need not even worry about living righteously if such were the case because even your future sin is forgiven you. Why do you have to live righteously if Jesus paid for your future sin? It makes no sense. Peter's whole point here is that the person who is not living righteously and who is not partaking of the divine nature has forgotten of the kind of sins in their old life that they have been forgiven of. This is the grace that they need to focus on in order to be motivated to move towards right (or righteous) actions. If I knew my upcoming future sin was forgiven, this would not make me really feel sorry about sin, but it would make me turn it into a license for immorality. You cannot say present and future sin is forgiven a person without minimizing the seriousness of sin. The wages of sin is still death (Romans 6:23).

You said:
I believe Hebrews 10:10 is clear concerning all sin in the believers life, and this is the sense of "once for all," that the atonement of Christ can only be imparted only once, because there is no need of repetitious atonements as in the Law,

No. Hebrews 10:11 says, "And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins" (Hebrews 10:11).

The blood of goats and bulls never took away sin. They only offered a temporary atonement and they had to keep revisiting the same past sins year after year. With Jesus, our past sins are forever cleansed by his one time sacrifice. Nothing is mentioned about how future sin is forgiven you. On the contrary, the New Testament suggests otherwise. It says, in verse 26,

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).

28 "He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:28-29).​

Done what despite the Spirit of grace? Willfully sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth (See: Hebrews 10:26).

I believe many Christians today despise God's laws because they think they can disobey God's laws and still be saved. Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. Meaning, if we think future sin is forgiven us or that we are not under God's laws (salvation wise) it will lead to make light of His laws under the New Covenant, and we will end up speaking against His laws and or not really teaching the true way of following them (and it can lead us in the end to despise His laws as they were intended). A person may think they honor God's laws, but how can they honor them if they say they will always sin again and or they say they can break them and still be in God's good graces? It makes no sense to me. Can a man who is married keep cheating on his wife and just say he is sorry to her and expect to stay married to her his whole life? No. He really would not be sorry if he kept cheating on her and if he just paid lip service that he was sorry (When he really isn't). Granted, I am not indicating that this is the case for your walk with GOD in any way. I don't know you and your walk with GOD. What I do know is that Eternal Security leads to nothing good. I know that Belief Alone-ism leads to exactly that. Belief Alone while one's actions do not line up with what they say.

You said:
which some heretical doctrines teach (e.g. Socinianism and other present day heresy--not suspecting any individual here).

I believe in the Trinity and I have defended it many times with Scripture.

Here is a CF thread I created on defending the Trinity a while back:

Does God have a God? Explaining John 20:17 in Defense of the Trinity.

"For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time" (NLT).

This is talking about the atonement of Christ in how He forever paid for the sins of the whole world. He is the propitiation for not only our sins but for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). This does not mean everyone is forgiven or that future sin is forgiven men. For the Universalist can read this verse and assume that He got rid of sin for all time. In one sense, Jesus paid the price for all men's sins, but forgiveness and salvation is only applied if a person exercises proper faith in Christ by not only believing in Him, but in walking in the light as He is in the light (So that the blood of Jesus will continually cleanse them of all sin). But if we say future sin is forgiven to people (Especially children who do not know better) it can easily lead them to treat God's grace as a license for immorality and create yet another George Sodini.

Who is George Sodini?

Read this article here:

George Sodini.

Anyways, I say this all with love and respect towards you personally, but you must know that I do not like Eternal Security, and or Belief Alone-ism. For me: These beliefs are not of GOD and they have hurt the church more than you can imagine. But of course, we can agree to disagree on that one.

Peace be unto you in the Lord.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ J.
 
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fhansen

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Believers are not intended to walk within the Law for their righteousness, for it is only Christ and His work that brings one to rebirth and which imputes His righteousness! Surly there is nothing more hindering to Christian spiritual growth (but not to receiving salvation itself) than to misapprehend the intention of the Law concerning its purpose and application (which knowledge will probably not become common enough in Christendom until the translation of the Church)! It has been accurately stated that “The New Testament is "enfolded" in the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is "unfolded" in the New! It must be well understood though, that this has only to do with the individual identification and purpose of each system, and that neither have application to the other beyond the types and shadows of what God will do and has done concerning the salvation of believers.

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us” does not design the motive that the Law is fulfilled in the believer, but that the righteousness—to which the Law directs—“condemn sin” and deliverance in Christ (which “the Law could not do” - Ro 8:3—NC), is fulfilled in the believer! The Law was not intended for deliverance (not even for Israel to whom only it ever applied) but only to identify and reveal guilt of sin, and rather direct one to deliverance (Gal 3:24). It was in the sacrificial ordinances and not obedience to the Decalogue that forgiveness was obtained (Num 15:24-31); which ordinances had only Christ’s sacrifice in mind, and it is here where deliverance is “finished” or completed! The purpose of obedience to the Decalogue was to manifest faith in God and His commands, especially concerning the ordinance of the sin-offering, which alone brought forgiveness.

The same applies to Christian obedience, because obedience does not deliver but manifests there has been deliverance, for there must first be deliverance before than can be true obedience, because it requires the right heart in the obedience (new nature after Christ’s nature - Col 3:10). One walking “in the Spirit” with the “new man” or new nature, glorifies God in manifesting that salvation has been applied to the soul only because of what Christ has done, and this provides for us to ask God for faith in His Son and His work.

Also, please excuse the excessive cementations below, due to what I feel are issue-pertinent, thanks!

NC





Vicarious Law-keeping?


“Even so through the obedience of One” (Rom 5:19). This was our Lord’s death, as an act of obedience: “He became obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross” (Phl 2:8). He was of course always obedient to His Father, but it cannot be too strongly emphasized that His life before the Cross—His “active obedience,” as it is called, is not in any sense counted to us for righteousness. “I delivered to you,” says Paul, “first of all that Christ died for our sins” (1Cor 15:3).

Before His death He was “holy, guileless, undefiled and separate from sinners” (Heb 7:26). He Himself said, “Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone; but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit” (Jhn 12:24). Do you not see that those who claim that our Lord’s righteous life under Moses’s Law is reckoned to us for our “active righteousness; while His death in which He put away our sins, is, as they claim, the “passive” side, are really leaving you, and the Lord too, under the authority of the Law?

“Justified in His Blood,” and of that alone, reveals the direct lie to the claim that man must have an “active righteousness” (self-works—NC) as well as a “passive righteousness” (Christ’s works—NC). The specious assertion is, that “inasmuch as we have all broken the Law (even though God says that Gentiles were ‘without law’—and those in Christ are not under it) and inasmuch as man cannot by his works himself recover his righteous standing, Christ came and kept the Law in man’s place; Then He went to the Cross, and suffered the penalty of death for man’s guilt so that the result is an ‘active righteousness’ reckoned to man—that is, Christ’s keeping of the Law in man’s place; and second, a ‘passive righteousness,’ which consists of the putting away all guilt by the Blood of Christ.

Now, the awful thing here is the unbelief concerning man’s irrecoverable state before God (self-works being applied for redemption and not because of redemption is the same as demonstrating works-salvation. It’s Christ only, as our works should show—NC). For not only must Christ’s Blood be shed in expiation for our guilt; but we had to die with Christ. We were connected with the old Adam; and the old man—all we had and were in Adam, must be crucified—if we were to be “joined to Another, even to Him that was raised from the dead” (all of which are far from the workings of the Law – Ro 8:3—NC). Theological teaching since the Reformation has never set forth clearly our utter end in our death with Christ on the Cross (which answers to the reason why so much attention is given to the admixture of Judaism and Christianity, i.e. the Judeo-Christian concept. This is acceptable if the meaning here is proselytizing from Judaism to Christianity, which was the initial intent of meaning. But to conceive of amalgamating the two systems would result, if were possible, in detracting force from both—NC).

The fatal result of this terrible error is to leave the Law as claimant over those in Christ: for “law has dominion over a man as long as he liveth” (Rom 7:1). Unless you are able to believe in your heart that you died with Christ, that you old man was crucified with Him (Rom 6:6), and that you were buried, and that your history before god in Adam the first came to an utter end at Calvary, you will never get free from the claims of Law upon your conscience. Such is the plight of Reformed theology. Both Calvinists and Arminians think that the flesh (old man; Adamic sinful nature of one’s spirit—NC) is not so bad that it cannot be acted on for God by Christ using the Law of God and giving it power through the Spirit (I am still researching if these two doctrines believe this claim—NC).

The ascended Lord Jesus Christ is our righteousness. His earthly Life under the Law is not our righteousness. We have no connection with a Christ on earth and under Law. We are expressly told in Romans 7:1-6 that even Jewish believers who have been under the Law were “made dead to the Law by the body of Christ, that they might be joined to Another, even to Him who was raised from the dead” (Rom 7:4).

It is only the desperate legality of man’s heart, his self-confidence, that make him drag in and cling to the Law—even though Christ must fulfill it for him (leaving self out of any credit for salvation is the only true faith within Christ-only-salvation—NC)! Vicarious Law-keeping is Galatian heresy! Christianity begins with the resurrection (spiritual resurrection from sin and death—NC).


- W R N (William R Newell 1927–1992)
So if walking justly is no criteria for salvation can a believer walk unjustly and still be saved?
 
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WordSword

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I believe it is redundant, or overkill, or contradictory to tell a believer to do the following things below if they will automatically do such things by the new birth.

  1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

  2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

  3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

  4. Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life (Jude 1:21).

  5. If we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end, … we are made partakers of Christ, (Hebrews 3:13-14).

  6. If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, … the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

  7. Jesus tells us, “Be faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life” (Revelation 2:10).
It appears our last couple of replies to one another have become centered on the validity of believing or disbelieving in eternal security, which I've learned that a debate between two of varying understandings concerning it is unnecessary, because it being the most important growth truth, I believe only the Spirit can impart the truth concerning it and not another.

Their are numerous scriptures that appear to support both opinions and such debates tend to have the appearance of each wielding the Sword (Word) at one another. I usually cannot find a debate that doesn't develop into this type and so I do not go very far with this subject.

Concerning the passages you listed it's my belief that what some others call warnings I call encouragements, for why would one need to warn someone who is reborn about loosing their salvation, and to me there is only one type of salvation, "eternal salvation" (Heb 5:9; 9:12, 15; 2Th 2:16).

Best wishes and blessings!
 
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WordSword

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So if walking justly is no criteria for salvation can a believer walk unjustly and still be saved?
Hi! Thanks for your comment, good point. It's my understanding that works (of course only with faith) were criteria under the Law, but now the criteria is rebirth, and works are just a manifestation of it, which need no warnings as the Law had (Gal 5:23); and due to possessing His Spirit and being "partakers of the divine nature," i.e. new nature or "new man," the warnings of obedience are not necessary. Within the new birth, God "works" obedience within in the believer (Phl 2:13), which He had not done in those under the Law.

God bless!
 
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