Did the apostles and the early Church believe the Earth was flat?

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Why does this not surprise me. It's easy to make assertions, but when asked to actually back them up with hard data, you run away.

Wow, you went there. Do try to resist even the most rudimentary of temptations. I'll pray for you.

So again you make an assertion, but when asked to back it up with Hebrew commentary on the Old Testament you have nothing.

I'm not going to bother. It's obvious and self-evident.

If they hear not the law and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one was raised from the dead.

Does he quote from Hebrew commentaries? I don't have time to sit through videos.

Not in that vid. He simply asserts it from his scholarship. Perhaps you can produce a midrash?

I agree with your self assessment.

Not sure how accepting absolutes can be characterised as jaundiced?
 
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ViaCrucis

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No they don't. That's skywaves not groundwaves.
The ionosphere is the firmament. Or don't you believe the Bible either?

There's no such thing as a firmament. The biblical writers believed that there was a solid dome which held back and contained heavenly waters, from which rain came. It was part of the ancient near eastern cosmology which they subscribed to--but it's not an accurate picture of reality. Rain doesn't come from literal windows in the firmament, rain is precipitation from condensed water vapor, usually originating in clouds--which are just condensed water vapor.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Well you're the expert. And that 2nd mate, well, has he been drinking seawater again?

I just go by the word of God, observational science and basic logic.

attachment-image-92f6c85b-8fef-4d97-ac20-52f81c15a887.jpg


No detectable or measurable ball earth curvature anywhere. You can't live on a spinning ball.

Shrink a person to relative size on the surface of a billiard ball and the observer wouldn't notice the curvature from the surface either.

However curvature can be observed by an earthbound observer pretty easily, as by increasing elevation the observer can see further. That's why someone on a mountain can see further than someone at sea level.

More importantly, as I already asked earlier--using the flat earth model please explain both seasons and the day-night cycle in a consistent way. If the flat earth model is scientific, then it should be able to account for both phenomenon.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Yekcidmij

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I just go by ... observational science and basic logic.

Yet you still have been unable to explain why the use of spherical trigonometry works when navigating long ocean voyages. In your "model" it shouldn't work because the earth is flat. Yet it works, so your "model" is wrong.

equalaltitudecircle.png
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

"Chuwg" also means "circle, sphere", something round (2D or 3D)
yes, and in that verse, halak translates as "to go", better than to walk, in that verse, for He surely goes in the circle of the earth, for "He has set His throne in the sun", as the Hebrew, Greek Septuagint, Latin Vulgate, and English Douay Rheims states, in Psalm 18, in those, Psalm 19 in other English versions translated in error, after Galileo's error. .
That is provable by Scripture in many places, that the sun goes in its own path in the circling around the earth heavens, which heavens circled the globe from the first day, when God called the light to be, and separated the light from the dark, making evenings and mornings and one "DAY" equaling one circuit of the sun around the globe, from starting point, and back around to the same.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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But couldn't Earth be like a half globe?
No. The Hebrew word with the "BL" etymons, together, means" to swell", and we get a lot of English words from that original; Ball, Bell ( as in swelling sound of it), Balloon, Belly, bulbous... After Babel, all the tongues confounded from the one mother tongue used words with the same elements of composition with the same root meanings of those elements. God downloaded into Adam's computer brain the alephbet for making words using descriptive understanding. -He named each of them with the understanding from God's alephbet.
The word for Giraffe means neck, for instance, in the Hebrew mother tongue, and we get lots of words from that Hebrew word, like carafe, scarf...
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Yes.
They knew and understood that the Hebrew word (transliterated) “tebal” means “globe”. Everywhere we read the English word “world” in OT, it is “globe”, in Hebrew.
IF you do research on the times, you will discover that there were ocean voyages from continent to continent. Seems history has to be dug out from the myths men have made who do not have access to or do not seek access to true history.
Ocean travel from Europe, Africa, and the East did not begin to cease until Rome was sacked by the Barbarians, still, travel continued well into the 7th century -proof abounds. Begin with Barry Fell's books, Saga America, and America BC, and go from there.
When the Gospel was preached in all the world in the days of the Apostles, they went to all the continents to spread the Gospel.
Stories of Timothy being in South America can be found from missionaries who went in modern times to some isolated tribes and found them worshiping God in a corrupted Christian version, and they said the missionaries were bringing what Timothy had long ago brought them.
The Gospel has been going around the world since the first century, and every generation needs it anew, for it only takes one generation to fall into darkness -but it keeps on going.
 
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Kate30

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The Church knew the earth was round when they were harassing Galileo. But you're conflating flat/round earth with helio/geocentrism.
The Church was not against Heliocentrism per se. When Copernicus first proposed the idea the response of the ecclesiastics who cared about such things was basically, “Well that’s very interesting. I rather like it. … Can you prove it? No? Too bad. Get back to us when you can.”

And in fact, all the observable evidence was against Heliocentrism … which is quite understandable seeing as it is in fact WRONG. The sun is not the center of the UNIVERSE and neither the planets nor the fixed stars orbit the sun in perfect concentric circles. The only thing the Copernican model got right is that the Earth moves. And though utterly wrong in the model of planetary and stellar motion, it did point in the right direction, that the cleanest mathematical model of planetary motion would eventually show the sun to be central-ish to that motion.

For the first 50 years after Copernicus published, all the theological denunciations came from Protestants, not Catholics. Luther, Calvin, and Melanchthon were all harsh religious critics of the theory. The few Catholics who took an interest rejected it on empirical rather than theological grounds. (Indeed, until telescopes were powerful and accurate enough to detect stellar parallax Heliocentrism was quite reasonably rejected as false.)

The Church’s problem with Heliocentrism began with Giordano Bruno, and it wasn’t the theory itself but rather what cranks like Bruno would infer from it. Assuming the truth of Heliocentrism, Bruno argued (correctly, as it turned out) that the reason why no stellar parallax was observed is that stars were all mindbogglingly far away. He then, in a fit of amazing genius, deduced that the stars were all suns in their own right. He then made the leap that they’d have planets in orbit around them too, including planets with sentient life! (And in AD 1578, too! Wow!) And then he ruined it all by claiming that each of these millions of planets with life on them would need Jesus to incarnate there to redeem them too, and that he would be so busy being born, living for 30 years, preaching for 3, and getting crucified, resurrected, and then ascending, jumping to each planet in turn, that he would NEVER have time to return to Earth let alone rule from Jerusalem for eternity or even a thousand years.

Bruno also denied the Virgin Birth, Transubstantiation, and that Jesus had human/mortal flesh, while preaching re-incarnation and some very heretical/mystical ideas concerning the Trinity, particularly in matters of Christology and the Holy Spirit, all while thumbing his nose at the Catholic clergy practically daring them to turn him into a human tiki torch. And this at the height of the Counter-Reformation when Catholicism was in a life-and-death struggle with Protestantism over the very issues of individual interpretation of Scripture and the authority of the Church.

The Inquisition accordingly had Bruno immolated in 1600. And for a generation after that Catholics were understandably prone to view anyone espousing Heliocentrism with a good bit of suspicion.

Galileo — not the most diplomatic or ingratiating of individuals — circa 1615 decided to really step in it. As the empirical evidence was against him, he employed aesthetic/philosophic arguments AND BIBLICAL ONES! (Yes. Galileo maintained the Bible taught Heliocentrism) And that’s what got him in hot water with the Inquisition — basically doing theology without a license, producing novel Biblical interpretations independent of and at variance with the Magisterium.

A year later, the Inquisition pronounced Heliocentrism itself heretical. But ultimately that was beyond its authority — only Councils and Popes could issue an absolute dogma on the matter. Neither ever did.

Another 15 years went by and Galileo was tempted to try again. He had a friend and protector in the then new pope, who enthusiastically allowed — arguably even commissioned — Galileo to pen a dialogue where the two opposing models were to be fairly debated ON THE BASIS OF SCIENCE alone. Galileo in turn composed and published a work that was anything but fair — or scientific — but was an opus for mocking the traditionalists, making the pope himself (obviously the main antagonist in the dialogue) look like a fool, and worst of all, again claiming that the Bible was on his side after swearing UNDER OATH that he would not! Thus he was condemned as a relapsed heretic and oath-breaker — and he was both! But his real crime was being insufferably obnoxious. But a martyr to “science” he was not.
Root of Jesse I’ll agree with you on that point ( but as a martyr to science Galileo was not) I’d simply add Giordano Bruno, Copernicus and Einstein to the list as well. All do have very chequered pasts in how they brought the heliocentric system into being . Speaking of telescopes it was a telescope that was once used with water in a experiment to discover if it was the earth moving or whether it was the aether moving past the earth. The results revealed that it was the not the earth moving but only the aether that was moving past the earth. Conclusion the earth was at rest. Of course Albert Einstein put pay to that he simply threw the aether out. At least for awhile, I think dark matter is used as a alternative term these days. Of course there has been other experiments done also returning a null and void. Or let’s say the required speed that the earth must be to be following the sun. It just was not even close. So is the earth really moving at those vast speeds as required for the heliocentric model to work. Not as far I know. As to the Protestents. Well just like Catholics they used to both strongly believe in the geocentric system but not so much now. Though many Christians still do believe Geocentricity today such as Robert Sungenis. His work the Church was right and Galileo was wrong is a 3 volume geocentric publication of which the author does go into much depth about the Galileo affair that you have mentioned. Root of Jesse what I’m trying to say is that if the foundation of heliocentricity was never founded on established fact just on mere assumption and slate of hand. And if the foundation wasn’t there from the beginning than why should we really believe everthing the world of science tells us . Especially when it puts itself above the word of God.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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It is called "the Firmament of His powers" in Scripture. He named the stretched out firmament between the two waters "two waters" -Hebrew "Sha mayim", meaning the cut in two waters. Shamayim is translated heavens, from Hebrew to English.
So heavens are two waters, and those heavens are "the firmament of His powers".
The waters above the heavens had windows opened in them for the flood , and the waters beneath the earth rushed up in fountains to meet those waters through opened earth.
They united as one, again, for the time of the flood.
Not all the waters came up or down, by the magnetic forces of the powers in them, but enough did to flood the entire earth.
The waters above the heavens also deliver atmospheric rivers to the earth, which rivers can hold more water than the Amazon river...look up Atmospheric rivers, then look at Genesis 2:8-14. The river that went out of Eden -in the third heaven- became 4 river heads on earth below.

Eden is in the third heaven, as Paul the Apostle states in 2 Cor 12: 2 when he says he was caught up (raptured) to Paradise, in the third heaven.

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise


There's no such thing as a firmament. ...


-CryptoLutheran
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I have Sungenis book, but on CD...Id love to have a hard copy, but it is out of print.

Root of Jesse I’ll agree with you on that point ( but as a martyr to science Galileo was not) I’d simply add Giordano Bruno, Copernicus and Einstein to the list as well. All do have very chequered pasts in how they brought the heliocentric system into being . Speaking of telescopes it was a telescope that was once used with water in a experiment to discover if it was the earth moving or was it the aether moving past the earth. The results revealed that it was the not the earth moving but the aether moving past the earth. Conclusion the earth is at rest. Of course Albert Einstein put pay to that he simply threw the aether out. At least for awhile, I think dark matter is used as a alternative these days. Of course there has been other experiments done also returning a null and void. Or let’s say the required speed that the earth must be to be following the sun. It just was not even close. So is the earth really moving at those vast speeds as required for the heliocentric model to work. Not as far I know. As to the Protestents. Well just like Catholics they used to both strongly believe in the geocentric system. As many Christians still do today such as Robert Sungenis. His work the Church was right and Galileo was wrong is a 3 volume geocentric publication of which the author does go into much depth about the Galileo affair that you have mentioned. Root of Jesse what I’m trying to say is that if the foundation of heliocentricity was never founded on established fact just on mere assumption and slate of hand. And if the foundation wasn’t there from the beginning than why should we really believe everthing the world of science tells us . Especially when it puts itself above the word of God.
 
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Kate30

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I have Sungenis book, but on CD...Id love to have a hard copy, but it is out of print.
Yeshua I aquired the hard copies some 4 yrs ago they certainly are not cheap but still money well spent. Sorry to hear they are no longer in print edition I enjoy very much the historical side of his research.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Root of Jesse I’ll agree with you on that point ( but as a martyr to science Galileo was not) I’d simply add Giordano Bruno, Copernicus and Einstein to the list as well. All do have very chequered pasts in how they brought the heliocentric system into being . Speaking of telescopes it was a telescope that was once used with water in a experiment to discover if it was the earth moving or whether it was the aether moving past the earth. The results revealed that it was the not the earth moving but only the aether that was moving past the earth. Conclusion the earth was at rest. Of course Albert Einstein put pay to that he simply threw the aether out. At least for awhile, I think dark matter is used as a alternative term these days. Of course there has been other experiments done also returning a null and void. Or let’s say the required speed that the earth must be to be following the sun. It just was not even close. So is the earth really moving at those vast speeds as required for the heliocentric model to work. Not as far I know. As to the Protestents. Well just like Catholics they used to both strongly believe in the geocentric system but not so much now. Though many Christians still do believe Geocentricity today such as Robert Sungenis. His work the Church was right and Galileo was wrong is a 3 volume geocentric publication of which the author does go into much depth about the Galileo affair that you have mentioned. Root of Jesse what I’m trying to say is that if the foundation of heliocentricity was never founded on established fact just on mere assumption and slate of hand. And if the foundation wasn’t there from the beginning than why should we really believe everthing the world of science tells us . Especially when it puts itself above the word of God.
Well, part of my point is that neither heliocentricity nor geocentricity are correct. Neither the sun nor the earth are the center of the universe. Helio was more right, but still wrong. All the Church had to go to was the facts from the Bible. There was no way to prove geocentricity to be correct.
 
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Anguspure

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Well you're the expert. And that 2nd mate, well, has he been drinking seawater again?

I just go by the word of God, observational science and basic logic.

attachment-image-92f6c85b-8fef-4d97-ac20-52f81c15a887.jpg


No detectable or measurable ball earth curvature anywhere. You can't live on a spinning ball.
Wish the 2/O had been drinking something nice than salt water....
I can assure you that it's very detectable. Look at that horizon, those clouds look as if they are touching the edge of the world. If you travel towards them they move upwards in the sky until you get to that point about 50 miles away and they're overhead.
 
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Erik Nelson

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No. The Hebrew word with the "BL" etymons, together, means" to swell", and we get a lot of English words from that original; Ball, Bell ( as in swelling sound of it), Balloon, Belly, bulbous... After Babel, all the tongues confounded from the one mother tongue used words with the same elements of composition with the same root meanings of those elements. God downloaded into Adam's computer brain the alephbet for making words using descriptive understanding. -He named each of them with the understanding from God's alephbet.
The word for Giraffe means neck, for instance, in the Hebrew mother tongue, and we get lots of words from that Hebrew word, like carafe, scarf...
Hebrew Japheth = Greek Iapetos
Hebrew goren = Greek agora [smooth open forum atop hill]
Hebrew Noah = Greco-Roman Naval, Nautical
 
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Erik Nelson

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It is called "the Firmament of His powers" in Scripture. He named the stretched out firmament between the two waters "two waters" -Hebrew "Sha mayim", meaning the cut in two waters. Shamayim is translated heavens, from Hebrew to English.
So heavens are two waters, and those heavens are "the firmament of His powers".
The waters above the heavens had windows opened in them for the flood , and the waters beneath the earth rushed up in fountains to meet those waters through opened earth.
They united as one, again, for the time of the flood.
Not all the waters came up or down, by the magnetic forces of the powers in them, but enough did to flood the entire earth.
The waters above the heavens also deliver atmospheric rivers to the earth, which rivers can hold more water than the Amazon river...look up Atmospheric rivers, then look at Genesis 2:8-14. The river that went out of Eden -in the third heaven- became 4 river heads on earth below.

Eden is in the third heaven, as Paul the Apostle states in 2 Cor 12: 2 when he says he was caught up (raptured) to Paradise, in the third heaven.

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise
Strong's Hebrew: 8064. שָׁמַ֫יִם (shamayim) -- heaven, sky

Shamay'im = plural of "lofty vault" of the sky, "skies", "heavens" ?
 
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Wish the 2/O had been drinking something nice than salt water....
I can assure you that it's very detectable. Look at that horizon, those clouds look as if they are touching the edge of the world. If you travel towards them they move upwards in the sky until you get to that point about 50 miles away and they're overhead.
and what if clouds approach you from over the horizon? Or airplanes ??
 
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I can assure you that it's very detectable. Look at that horizon, those clouds look as if they are touching the edge of the world. If you travel towards them they move upwards in the sky until you get to that point about 50 miles away and they're overhead.

I've replied to another post above that I'm not going to pursue the argument any further here. The OP is not directly about whether FE is true or not. The Conspiracy Theory Forum is where this kind of banter takes place.

Suffice it to say that I thank geocentrism and its proponents for removing a major stumbling block in the way of my being drawn to Christ, receiving divine revelation and a knowledge of God. So I'm set on this one, as it accords with the Bible, personal revelation and imho (from reviewing fairly extensive independent research over the last 10+ years, and a range of expert and lay opinions from both sides) scientific experiment/ observation.
 
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Anguspure

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and what if clouds approach you from over the horizon? Or airplanes ??
Same deal. If you have a clear horizon and a sharp eye aeroplanes always appear at the horizon and move upwards until overhead and then sink back down again. Having flown on many of these things I can tell you that from the perspective of a person in the aeroplane the altitude remains the same throughout the transit of a point underneath us. The plane only goes up at take off and down when landing a the destination, and doesn't go up and down like a yo-yo for every ground based observer.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Same deal. If you have a clear horizon and a sharp eye aeroplanes always appear at the horizon and move upwards until overhead and then sink back down again. Having flown on many of these things I can tell you that from the perspective of a person in the aeroplane the altitude remains the same throughout the transit of a point underneath us. The plane only goes up at take off and down when landing a the destination, and doesn't go up and down like a yo-yo for every ground based observer.
and you'd probably see the nose appearing before the wings & tail... which would in turn be the last thing remaining visible ?
 
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I've replied to another post above that I'm not going to pursue the argument any further here. The OP is not directly about whether FE is true or not. The Conspiracy Theory Forum is where this kind of banter takes place.

Suffice it to say that I thank geocentrism and its proponents for removing a major stumbling block in the way of my being drawn to Christ, receiving divine revelation and a knowledge of God. So I'm set on this one, as it accords with the Bible, personal revelation and imho (from reviewing fairly extensive independent research over the last 10+ years, and a range of expert and lay opinions from both sides) scientific experiment/ observation.
Geocentricism I don't really have a problem with because the center of the universe is by definition where YHWH has focused His attention, irrespective of physical perspectives.
Besides it seems that at its root the abhorrence for geocentricism is more about concerns over human arrogance than any observational reason. Certainly it appears that all things in the universe are moving away from us at the same rate (and I do understand the mainstream explanations that are put forward).
 
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