Covenant with Abraham - In Essence, a Christian Covenant?

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Christ did, in a sense, abolish the law. Paradoxically, he did so by fulfilling all of its righteous requirements. But, in a sense the law stands. It stands declaring Jesus fully righteous - without spot or blemish. It also condemns those outside of Christ.

But those in Christ, stand in His righteousness - declared by His resurrection.

I think you mean the commandments stand, not the law of Moses.

The Commandments are eternal, and did not originate with Moses.

Abraham walked in obedience to His Commandments and law, 430 years before Moses gave them the law.

Abraham kept them by faith.


And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5


Abraham walked in obedience before the Lord because he learned His Commandments and laws directly from the Lord, the way Adam was supposed to; The way we are supposed to, today.


By faith means God speaks to us, and we do what He says.



JLB
 
Upvote 0

Gup20

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 11, 2019
654
136
45
Albertville
✟157,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think you mean the commandments stand, not the law of Moses.

The Commandments are eternal, and did not originate with Moses.

Abraham walked in obedience to His Commandments and law, 430 years before Moses gave them the law.

Abraham kept them by faith.


And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5


Abraham walked in obedience before the Lord because he learned His Commandments and laws directly from the Lord, the way Adam was supposed to; The way we are supposed to, today.


By faith means God speaks to us, and we do what He says.



JLB
We don't have to guess what Abraham's faith was in -- scripture tells us directly.

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.​

The reason he was made righteous for his faith was because he believed the gospel of Jesus Christ... same as any other believer does.

[Gal 3:16 KJV] 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

[Gen 15:5-6 KJV] 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.​

This is why Abraham is the father of ALL who believe.

[Rom 4:9-13 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.​
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
We don't have to guess what Abraham's faith was in -- scripture tells us directly.

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.​

The reason he was made righteous for his faith was because he believed the gospel of Jesus Christ... same as any other believer does.

[Gal 3:16 KJV] 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

[Gen 15:5-6 KJV] 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.​

This is why Abraham is the father of ALL who believe.

[Rom 4:9-13 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.​

No one is “guessing” about Abraham’s faith.

The discussion is about whether the law of Moses applies to the Church today.



JLB
 
Upvote 0

Gup20

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 11, 2019
654
136
45
Albertville
✟157,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No one is “guessing” about Abraham’s faith.

The discussion is about whether the law of Moses applies to the Church today.



JLB
Galatians 3:15-18 (NASB) 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.​

it should be pretty obvious...

The covenant of faith exists apart from the law, but the law does not exist apart from the covenant of faith.

the covenant of faith made with Abraham 430 years before the law was given was ratified in the latter half of Genesis 15.

Romans 3:21-22 (NASB) 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;​

So the law is a witness to the covenant of faith, but didn’t add any conditions to the covenant of faith.

The purpose of the law was to legally establish Christ’s innocence & sinlessness brining righteousness into the fallen creation. It is Christ’s righteousness which was exchanged/redeemed and given to Abraham so that it could be the inheritance to all of Abraham’s descendants.

our faith doesn’t qualify us for righteousness... it qualifies us as descendants of Abraham... and descendants of Abraham inherit Christ’s righteousness.


Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Galatians 4:21-31 (NASB) 21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.​
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Galatians 3:15-18 (NASB) 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.​

it should be pretty obvious...

The covenant of faith exists apart from the law, but the law does not exist apart from the covenant of faith.

the covenant of faith made with Abraham 430 years before the law was given was ratified in the latter half of Genesis 15.

Romans 3:21-22 (NASB) 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;​

So the law is a witness to the covenant of faith, but didn’t add any conditions to the covenant of faith.

The purpose of the law was to legally establish Christ’s innocence & sinlessness brining righteousness into the fallen creation. It is Christ’s righteousness which was exchanged/redeemed and given to Abraham so that it could be the inheritance to all of Abraham’s descendants.

our faith doesn’t qualify us for righteousness... it qualifies us as descendants of Abraham... and descendants of Abraham inherit Christ’s righteousness.


Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Galatians 4:21-31 (NASB) 21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.​


So you agree the law of Moses was temporary and was abolished by the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross?



JLB
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
our faith doesn’t qualify us for righteousness... it qualifies us as descendants of Abraham... and descendants of Abraham inherit Christ’s righteousness.

Faith comes to us from God, when He speaks to us.

Our faith is activated when we obey what He speaks to us to do.


This is the principle of the righteousness which is according to faith.


By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Hebrews 11:7





JLB
 
Upvote 0

Gup20

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 11, 2019
654
136
45
Albertville
✟157,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So you agree the law of Moses was temporary and was abolished by the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross?


JLB
I don’t think abolished is the right word... I think a better description would be “fulfilled” or “completed.”
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I don’t think abolished is the right word... I think a better description would be “fulfilled” or “completed.”

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-15


He abolished it because He fulfilled it.


“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18


  • I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
  • one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled


The commandments are eternal and existed before the law of Moses.


They were not abolished, but written in our hearts and mind.


The law of Moses was always meant to be temporary.



JLB
 
Upvote 0

Gup20

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 11, 2019
654
136
45
Albertville
✟157,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-15


He abolished it because He fulfilled it.


“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18


  • I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
  • one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled


The commandments are eternal and existed before the law of Moses.


They were not abolished, but written in our hearts and mind.


The law of Moses was always meant to be temporary.



JLB
What was abolished is the enmity between God and man - between the righteousness requirement of the law and man. The law wasn't abolished, the enmity was abolished by the fulfillment of the law on our behalf.

For the law has jurisdiction only over the sinners, but is at peace with the righteous. If our righteousness comes through another means (though the inheritance of the covenant of faith) we are no less righteous than if the Law were to judge us as such... then what enmity have we with the law? None.

The purpose of both the covenants was to justify someone as righteous. The Law judges by actions, and faith judges by kinship. The Law prescribes punishment for sinners, not for the righteous.

[Gal 3:21-24 NASB] 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor [to lead us] to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.​
 
Upvote 0

Gup20

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 11, 2019
654
136
45
Albertville
✟157,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Faith comes to us from God, when He speaks to us.

Our faith is activated when we obey what He speaks to us to do.


This is the principle of the righteousness which is according to faith.


By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Hebrews 11:7

JLB
[Rom 10:14-18 NASB] 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
The idea that faith comes to us from God is a Calvinist notion that I don't agree with. However, even if I were to accept it, there is plenty of Biblical evidence that God preached the gospel to Abraham and Abraham believed and was saved by grace through that faith. Abraham was the first person the Bible records as being saved (made righteous) by grace through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Notice how it says Noah became heir of the righteousness which is by faith -- that covenant of inheritance was given to Abraham, who is the father of all who believe. So Noah couldn't receive it (righteousness) until it had been given to Abraham.

[Gen 15:5-6 NASB] 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants (seed, singular) be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

[Gen 17:3-8 NASB] 3 Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying, 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants (seed, singular) after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants (seed, singular) after you.
10 "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 "And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.

[Gal 3:16 NASB] 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

[Rom 4:9-13 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
Abraham was made righteous before circumcision. Circumcision is the foreshadow of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This means that Abraham - establishing the pattern of salvation - was made righteous prior to the Holy Spirit indwelling. For Abraham, circumcision is a SEAL of the righteousness he obtained by faith in the gospel. Similary, Eph 1:13-14 says that we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit AFTER we believed and that indwelling is a SEAL of the righteousness we obtained by inheritance through faith in the gospel.

[Rom 1:16-17 NASB] 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it [the] righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS [man] SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."​

The GOSPEL is the power of God for salvation, not faith. The gospel comes from God, but faith in it originates in man.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What was abolished is the enmity between God and man

No sir.

What was abolished was the enmity between Jew and Gentile, which was the law of Commandments contained in ordinances that separated Jew from Gentile.


  • having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances


Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Christ Our Peace
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:11-15




JLB
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The idea that faith comes to us from God is a Calvinist notion that I don't agree with.


I’m certainly not Calvinist.


So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7


God spoke to Noah to build an Ark and gave him the wisdom and understanding to do so.



JLB
 
Upvote 0

Gup20

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 11, 2019
654
136
45
Albertville
✟157,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No sir.

What was abolished was the enmity between Jew and Gentile, which was the law of Commandments contained in ordinances that separated Jew from Gentile.


  • having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances


Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Christ Our Peace
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:11-15




JLB
I can agree with this. However, I would point out that structurally, the sentence is saying that enmity is abolished not that the law was abolished. The law is listed as the cause of the enmity between Jew and Gentile, but what was abolished was that enmity, not the law itself. This is why it's better to say the law was fulfilled or completed, not abolished.

We can acknowledge that another means - not the law (but rather the covenant of faith) - is the cause of our justification to righteousness. Therefore, the purpose of the law - to bring us to Christ (to force us back to the covenant of faith for justification) - has been fulfilled.

[Gal 3:24 NASB] 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor [to lead us] to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.​
 
Upvote 0

Gup20

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 11, 2019
654
136
45
Albertville
✟157,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I’m certainly not Calvinist.


So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7


God spoke to Noah to build an Ark and gave him the wisdom and understanding to do so.



JLB
Indeed... I'm not suggesting you are a Calvinist, but rather that the notion that faith comes from God is a Calvinist notion. Faith originates in man, but the Gospel which is the power to salvation comes from God. That which is preached comes from God. The gospel upon which we believe comes from God.

Calvinism teaches that man is so deprived that he is incapable of faith until God, absent the volition of man indwells him with the Holy Spirit and gives him the faith to believe the gospel.

Calvinists hold up this scripture:

[Eph 2:8 NASB] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;​

They say "faith is the gift from God." However the natural, grammatical interpretation of the scripture is that salvation (the phrase "you have been saved") is the gift, not faith. The terms "by grace" and "through faith" are supporting clauses of the primary subject & predicate.

[Deu 30:19 NASB] 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

[Rom 8:15-17 NASB] 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

These two passages of scripture are in harmony that salvation is a choice - a cooperation between God and Man. Regarding salvation which comes by faith (Rom 10:6 claims Deuteronomy 30 is talking about salvation by faith), Deuteronomy 30 says Heaven and Earth Witness our choice for life or death. Romans 8 says Heaven (The Spirit) and Earth (our spirit) Witness (to testify is to bare witness) the choice we make regarding faith.
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I can agree with this. However, I would point out that structurally, the sentence is saying that enmity is abolished not that the law was abolished


I agree the sentence structure says the enmity was abolished, then clarifies what the middle wall of separation was, the source of enmity that divided them, which was; the law of commandments contained in ordinances.


  • having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-15

Again


And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-14


Do you understand what the “it” is here in this passage that was taken out of the way, being nailed to the cross?




JLB
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Indeed... I'm not suggesting you are a Calvinist, but rather that the notion that faith comes from God is a Calvinist notion.


Faith does come from God.

This is a biblical truth.

Faith comes to us when God speaks to us, whether directly or through a prophetic word, or through a person who He sends to preach the Gospel.

The word (rhema) comes from God.


So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17


By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


Faith must have the corresponding action of obedience or it remains dormant and incomplete; unable to function and provide the divine result that God intends.


Shall I expound on this?



JLB
 
Upvote 0

Gup20

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 11, 2019
654
136
45
Albertville
✟157,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Faith does come from God.

This is a biblical truth.

Faith comes to us when God speaks to us, whether directly or through a prophetic word, or through a person who He sends to preach the Gospel.

The word (rhema) comes from God.


So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17


By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


Faith must have the corresponding action of obedience or it remains dormant and incomplete; unable to function and provide the divine result that God intends.


Shall I expound on this?



JLB
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, so it must originate in the one who hopes. I believe the gospel so I have hope of eternal life... unless I don't believe the gospel... then the gospel doesn't give me any hope. The gospel is often preached to those who won't believe it, and it does't give them any hope. In order to have hope, a person must choose to believe the gospel. Once they make that choice, they have hope in it.

That which we believe (or have faith in) - the gospel - comes from God. But faith (mere belief) is a choice for the believer.

If God said "the sky is blue" and I believed, that wouldn't make me righteous. If God said "you will move to Seattle next year" and I believed him, that wouldn't make me righteous. But if God said the gospel to me, and I believed Him, that would make me righteous. Why? Because Abraham believed the gospel and was made righteous for that belief (in the gospel)... therefore, everyone who believes the gospel is qualified as a spiritual descendant of Abraham, and all the spiritual descendants of Abraham inherit as a birthright the righteousness given to Abraham in Genesis 15.

Therefore, when I have the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had, I am qualified as a seed of Abraham, and I inherit the righteousness given to Abraham and promised as an inheritance to his spiritual descendants.

Therefore, the gospel must be preached (by God) and then believed (by man). The gospel came from God... the faith or belief comes from man.

One witness is from heaven, and one witness is from earth.

[Rom 8:16 NASB] 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

[Deu 30:19 NASB] 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

I sounds like you are saying that faith comes from the preaching of the gospel... as though faith IS the gospel. But faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God... faith doesn't come by the word of God, it comes by hearing.

Faith and the gospel have an indirect relationship, not a direct one, otherwise scripture wouldn't say faith by hearing and hearing by the word of God it would just say faith comes by the word of God. Hearing involves receiving and processing and understanding a message. It is an act of our mind.
 
Upvote 0

Gup20

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 11, 2019
654
136
45
Albertville
✟157,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No sir.

It originates from God.

It comes to us from God.


It operates by obedience.


JLB
[Rom 10:5-17 NASB] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

Here we see that Paul says "the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows" and then quotes large portions of Deuteronomy 30. Here is what Deuteronomy 30 says:

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Deuteronomy 30 is all about how God has given us a CHOICE to believe or not to believe. 3 times it says it is a choice God sets before us. It even says it is not too difficult for us to make the choice, and specifically that the choice is not made in heaven. THIS is what Paul chooses to quote when defining the righteousness which is based on faith. It says "with the heart a person believes" ... this isn't faith coming from God, but faith coming from the heart of a man. It says "they did not all heed the good news" (the gospel) or "who has believed our report." Believing the gospel is as simple as believing a news report. It matters what report we believe... but we are the ones who are given the choice of whether or not to believe it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
[Rom 10:5-17 NASB] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

Here we see that Paul says "the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows" and then quotes large portions of Deuteronomy 30. Here is what Deuteronomy 30 says:

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Deuteronomy 30 is all about how God has given us a CHOICE to believe or not to believe. 3 times it says it is a choice God sets before us. It even says it is not too difficult for us to make the choice, and specifically that the choice is not made in heaven. THIS is what Paul chooses to quote when defining the righteousness which is based on faith. It says "with the heart a person believes" ... this isn't faith coming from God, but faith coming from the heart of a man. It says "they did not all heed the good news" (the gospel) or "who has believed our report." Believing the gospel is as simple as believing a news report. It matters what report we believe... but we are the ones who are given the choice of whether or not to believe it.

You do realize believe means obey, right?

Disobedience is Unbelief.


It says "with the heart a person believes" ... this isn't faith coming from God, but faith coming from the heart of a man.


The faith in his heart came from God speaking to him.


Our part is to believe, which means obey.


Faith is a noun. Faith comes from God.

Faith is activated, made alive by our obedience, which is a verb, an action word.


Shall I give you some examples?


JLB
 
Upvote 0