question about hell

Dkh587 · Oct 2, 2019

Der Alter said:
Did you read my last post? I only quoted 1/2 page of 2 full pages from the Jewish Encyclopedia article "Gentiles" Here is a link.

GENTILE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

The Ethiopian eunuch was a Jew and from the fact that he had a cart a wealthy Jew. Therefore he would not have been restricted from owning a copy of the T'nakh and wealthy enough to afford one. Making a copy of the scriptures was a long, slow, expensive task. Most people of that era could not afford one.

Yes copies of the Septuagint were being made for Jews. I refer you to my previous post. Here is a brief quote.

"the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). ...one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death"

See my previous comments and post.

And your point is? Paul was a Jew.

Act 26:5

(5) Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Act_22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

Act 23:6

(6) But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Php 3:5

(5) Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

So Paul would have known the OT but that does not mean any gentile in Rome, Corinth etc. etc. would know the law.

Gentiles would have known what sin was when the writers of the NT told them. See e.g.,

1 Co 6:9-10

(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:21

(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:18-21

(18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

There is absolutely nothing in the NT which shows that gentiles had access to the OT. The only parts of the OT that most gentiles would have known is what is quoted in the NT. And I refer you to my source the Jewish Encyclopedia linked to above.

There’s nothing in the NT that indicates or insinuates that the early assemblies didn’t have access to the Law & Prophets.

Even if they didn’t, though, their potential ignorance of symbolism used in the OT does not negate the symbolism that’s used, and how it’s used. The chaff in Matthew 3:12 and Luke 3:17 still refers to the wicked, whether or not they know it. That doesn’t change, so it’s a moot point.

And to be frank, who cares what people who might have been ignorant of the scriptures think? We aren’t supposed to base doctrine off of what people think who may be ignorant to the Scriptures. Even if they didn’t have the Law and Prophets, we do, so we can see that the prophets compared the wicked to chaff, so to read about the Messiah being depicted as a farmer burning chaff makes plenty of sense.

Der Alte · Oct 2, 2019

Dkh587 said:
●●●

<DK>There’s nothing in the NT that indicates or insinuates that the early assemblies didn’t have access to the Law & Prophets.
Even if they didn’t, though, their potential ignorance of symbolism used in the OT does not negate the symbolism that’s used, and how it’s used. The chaff in Matthew 3:12 and Luke 3:17 still refers to the wicked, whether or not they know it. That doesn’t change, so it’s a moot point.
And to be frank, who cares what people who might have been ignorant of the scriptures think? We aren’t supposed to base doctrine off of what people think who may be ignorant to the Scriptures. Even if they didn’t have the Law and Prophets, we do, so we can see that the prophets compared the wicked to chaff, so to read about the Messiah being depicted as a farmer burning chaff makes plenty of sense.<DK>

●●●

And there is nothing that indicates that all the gentile Christians had the OT or could understand Jewish figures of speech.
Greek speakers would not have understood chaff to refer to wicked people. Here is the definition again.

ἄχυρον, ου, τό (Hdt. et al. in pl. and sg.; ins, pap, LXX; Jos., Bell. 3, 223, Ant. 2, 289; SibOr 3, 791) the husks of grain, chaff Mt 3:12; Lk 3:17. On the burning of ἄ. cp. O. Wilck II, 1168 ἄ. εἰς τὰς καμείνους. For heating bath water BGU 760, 9 (II A.D.).—DELG s.v. ἄχυρα. M-M.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 161). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.[/quote]

Chaff is the outer husk and stems of the wheat plant. The edible part is separated from the inedible and the chaff is burned. This is the only meaning Greek speaking gentiles would have understood.
Gentiles would be familiar with burning chaff but they would have understood is as part of wheat which is separated.

Dkh587 · Oct 2, 2019

Der Alter said:
<DK>There’s nothing in the NT that indicates or insinuates that the early assemblies didn’t have access to the Law & Prophets.

Even if they didn’t, though, their potential ignorance of symbolism used in the OT does not negate the symbolism that’s used, and how it’s used. The chaff in Matthew 3:12 and Luke 3:17 still refers to the wicked, whether or not they know it. That doesn’t change, so it’s a moot point.

And to be frank, who cares what people who might have been ignorant of the scriptures think? We aren’t supposed to base doctrine off of what people think who may be ignorant to the Scriptures. Even if they didn’t have the Law and Prophets, we do, so we can see that the prophets compared the wicked to chaff, so to read about the Messiah being depicted as a farmer burning chaff makes plenty of sense.<DK>

And there is nothing that indicates that all the gentile Christians had the OT or could understand Jewish figures of speech.

Greek speakers would not have understood chaff to refer to wicked people. Here is the definition again.

ἄχυρον, ου, τό (Hdt. et al. in pl. and sg.; ins, pap, LXX; Jos., Bell. 3, 223, Ant. 2, 289; SibOr 3, 791) the husks of grain, chaff Mt 3:12; Lk 3:17. On the burning of ἄ. cp. O. Wilck II, 1168 ἄ. εἰς τὰς καμείνους. For heating bath water BGU 760, 9 (II A.D.).—DELG s.v. ἄχυρα. M-M.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 161). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Chaff is the outer husk and stems of the wheat plant. The edible part is separated from the inedible and the chaff is burned. This is the only meaning Greek speaking gentiles would have understood.

Gentiles would be familiar with burning chaff but they would have understood is as part of wheat which is separated.

I know what chaff is, and so did the prophets when they compared the wicked to chaff. John also knew what it was when he used symbolism to describe the separation of the righteous and wicked by comparing the end of the righteous to wheat and the wicked to chaff.

Sure, maybe Greek speakers who were ignorant of what the prophets taught did not understand the comparison between the wicked and chaff, but their ignorance and lack of understanding is not relevant, nor does it negate any teachings by the prophets.

Basing your argument on people who were ignorant of what the prophets taught and the symbolism they used is a logical fallacy.

Der Alte · Oct 2, 2019

Dkh587 said:
I know what chaff is, and so did the prophets when they compared the wicked to chaff. John also knew what it was when he used symbolism to describe the separation of the righteous and wicked by comparing the end of the righteous to wheat and the wicked to chaff.
Sure, maybe Greek speakers who were ignorant of what the prophets taught did not understand the comparison between the wicked and chaff, but their ignorance and lack of understanding is not relevant, nor does it negate any teachings by the prophets.
Basing your argument on people who were ignorant of what the prophets taught and the symbolism they used is a logical fallacy.

You evidently do not know what constitutes a logical fallacy. How many 1000s of former pagan gentiles from Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Colossae, Thessalonika etc. etc. joined the church but did not have the same understanding you have about wheat and chaff and other teachings in the N.T. which depended in part on a knowledge of the O.T. and Jewish thought? And if they don't have the same understanding as you, as I don't, would they be genuine Christians? Of would you consider them to have a false belief?
The word "chaff" occurs 12 times in the OT but there is no distinction between wheat and chaff.

JackRT · Oct 2, 2019

Eishiba said:
is there anywhere in the Bible in which hell is reffered to as eternal torture?

The question is somewhat redundant because "hell" is never mentioned in the Bible --- no, not even once.

Dkh587 · Oct 3, 2019

Der Alter said:
You evidently do not know what constitutes a logical fallacy. How many 1000s of former pagan gentiles from Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Colossae, Thessalonika etc. etc. joined the church but did not have the same understanding you have about wheat and chaff and other teachings in the N.T. which depended in part on a knowledge of the O.T. and Jewish thought? And if they don't have the same understanding as you, as I don't, would they be genuine Christians? Of would you consider them to have a false belief?
The word "chaff" occurs 12 times in the OT but there is no distinction between wheat and chaff.

I don’t think salvation is based on whether or not one understands what it means when the Messiah separating the righteous from the wicked is compared to a farmer threshing grain - one can either not know what it means, or have an incorrect understanding of it and still be a genuine believer. It’s really not a difficult comparison to understand, though.

The Messiah taught in many different ways the separation of the righteous and wicked during judgement. In Matthew 3:12 & Luke 3:17, John was in line with what the Messiah was teaching - separation of the righteous and the wicked

drich0150 · Oct 3, 2019

Eishiba said:
is there anywhere in the Bible in which hell is reffered to as eternal torture?

rev 10 say it is eternal torture for Satan and the antichrist. the rest of us it is the destruction of the soul through hell fire.

I honestly think our time in this hell fire will somehow relate to how evil we were.

Der Alte · Oct 3, 2019

Dkh587 said:
I don’t think salvation is based on whether or not one understands what it means when the Messiah separating the righteous from the wicked is compared to a farmer threshing grain - one can either not know what it means, or have an incorrect understanding of it and still be a genuine believer. It’s really not a difficult comparison to understand, though.
The Messiah taught in many different ways the separation of the righteous and wicked during judgement. In Matthew 3:12 & Luke 3:17, John was in line with what the Messiah was teaching - separation of the righteous and the wicked

Please show me at least one and possibly more examples in the O.T. where chaff is used exactly as you are claiming it is used in the N.T. In order for your claim to be true there must be one such example, more would be better.
You have been claiming that separating the wheat from the chaff means separating the righteous from the unrighteous. According to you that is the way that Jesus' immediate audience, the Jews, would have understood it and further that formerly pagan gentiles would also have understood it the same way.
Chaff is mentioned 12 times in the O.T. Of that 4 do not refer to people. Those verses are marked with an asterisk.
Job 21:18, Psalms 1:4, Psalms 35:5, Isaiah 5:24, Isaiah 17:13, Isaiah 29:5, Isaiah 33:11,
Isaiah 41:15 *, Jeremiah 23:28,* Daniel 2:35,* Hosea 13:3, Zephaniah 2:2 *
None of them show a distinction between chaff and wheat or anything else.

Der Alte · Oct 3, 2019

drich0150 said:
rev 10 say it is eternal torture for Satan and the antichrist. the rest of us it is the destruction of the soul through hell fire.
I honestly think our time in this hell fire will somehow relate to how evil we were.

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Der Alte · Oct 3, 2019

JackRT said:
The question is somewhat redundant because "hell" is never mentioned in the Bible --- no, not even once.

…..That is false. According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught, e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. Jesus criticized the Jews for many of their incorrect beliefs and practices. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs.

drich0150 · Oct 4, 2019

Der Alter said:
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Sooooo.. what or how does the data dump/word search you did for me change what I said? You even agreed that Satan and the anti christ are the only ones slated to burn forever. The rest is speculation that does not contradict anything that is written.

My post was very simple in that the bible records hell is forever and only two being being made to burn forever. Everyone else is consumed by Hell fire at one point or another. the implication being being burned up by hell fire is the second or spiritual death. I do not understand what all your red lettering means in relation to what I said.

Der Alte · Oct 4, 2019

drich0150 said:
Sooooo.. what or how does the data dump/word search you did for me change what I said? You even agreed that Satan and the anti christ are the only ones slated to burn forever. The rest is speculation that does not contradict anything that is written.

I have found that it is very helpful to actually read a post before posting a response.
"Data dump" and "wall of text" are common cop outs heterodox groups resort to when they can't rebut what is posted. Apparently reading scripture "in context" is beyond some folks.
I speculated about nothing I quoted scripture and pointed out relevant points.
Had you actually read my post I did NOT agree that only Satan and the anti Christ are slated to burn forever.

My post was very simple in that the bible records hell is forever and only two being being made to burn forever. Everyone else is consumed by Hell fire at one point or another. the implication being being burned up by hell fire is the second or spiritual death. I do not understand what all your red lettering means in relation to what I said.

There are 3 specific beings one of whom, the false prophet is a human being, are thrown into the lake of fire and tormented day an night forever. The other two are the beast and Satan, not the anti-Christ. Had you actually read my post you would have known that.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

In the following passage many people are tormented, their smoke ascends for ever and ever and they have no rest day and night.

Revelation 14:9-11
(9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In the following passage vs. 8 the one on the throne says "there shall be no more death." vs. 4, "I make all things new," vs. 5 and in vs. 8 eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death but they do not die there is no more death after vs. 4.

Revelation 21:4-5
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

drich0150 · Oct 4, 2019

Der Alter said:
I have found that it is very helpful to actually read a post before posting a response.
"Data dump" and "wall of text" are common cop outs heterodox groups resort to when they can't rebut what is posted. Apparently reading scripture "in context" is beyond some folks.

Actually it is not a cop out. It is me telling you I did not solicit all this reference material. Nor is there any/enough of your commentary to tie the useless information to the topic till much later.

For instance look at your post that started all of this.. there are no less than 7 cherry pick (literally meaning 7 verses independently selected because they contain a specific word. that you expect me to read through with no instruction or any other identifies EXCEPT that they all contain Second death and lof..

Again this looks like lazy data dumping. 7 verses I'm supposed to read, and what? memorize before you even begin to make your first point? You are not preaching a sermon here you do not have to stretch this out as long as possible.

This is a discussion. I have the freedom to ask for a citation just as you do. alternatively you can compile your verses and give a summation or just give the summation and wait for the person to ask for a citation.

To start off with a data dump tells me you are trying to prop up a weak ego or outragous idea. and as we are speaking on a really pointless topic... (as it does not matter what either of us teach or think hell is hell)

WHY oh WHY do you think I am going to invest any more into this discussion than need be? Why do I want to sift through a word search to try and figure out how it is you are setting you self up to be some sort of authority?

If how ever you just want to have a discussion there are many different ways you could have approached this. So rather than 7 wordsearch verses with NO commentary the three exhaust paragraphs..
Start out with LOF=Second death. or Second death=lof... then mabe give three points of reference and then mention there are many more.

Did you see what I did? I took 15 minutes of data dump then 3 paragraphs of puffed up reading and condensed it to one or two lines. then I directly laced this information under a specific topic.

Same information relayed but no one has been alienated. So LOF=Second death check!

I speculated about nothing I quoted scripture and pointed out relevant points.
Had you actually read my post I did NOT agree that only Satan and the anti Christ are slated to burn forever.

MY POINT was the bible reserve eternal damnation to satan and his inner circle. 1, 2 3, 10 who cares unless you are in that inner circle! Seriously guy I say 2 and you say three.. what does it matter if the point is no human soul is said to have been burned forever? Just tell the bible describes three being and move on. this is post number 3 and thousand of words and minnie points later here we still are on something as foolish as a typo or brain fart.

How about take the plank of wordsearch dumping out of your eye, and meet a man in the middle like I am trying to do for you here. Once in a while, rather than ry and use every error as a way to make yourself some sort of authority.

There are 3 specific beings one of whom, the false prophet is a human being, are thrown into the lake of fire and tormented day an night forever. The other two are the beast and Satan, not the anti-Christ. Had you actually read my post you would have known that.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
In the following passage many people are tormented, their smoke ascends for ever and ever and they have no rest day and night.

Revelation 14:9-11
(9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In the following passage vs. 8 the one on the throne says "there shall be no more death." vs. 4, "I make all things new," vs. 5 and in vs. 8 eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death but they do not die there is no more death after vs. 4.

Revelation 21:4-5
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Good lord.. all of that to say there was one more guy. I said it in 5 words you said it in 4 paragraphs and how many different quotes did it take you?
How is this method of instruction better if you are failing to communicate a basic understanding of your
position? You are drowning people in your unsolicited references.

We are told if there is no love in what you say/do than the wisest man is little more than a clanging symbol.

I hope that is what you got out of my effort to show you how clangy your message was to communicate there was one more guy in such away as to make you seem like a really smart guy, and me like a dismissive idiot because I like most people don't like getting spammed with info we did not ask for.

I say this because i do believe you are a smart guy who COULD help people if he wasn't caught up demonstrating how smart he was (There were four laser bolts [not blasts] that hit the millennium falcon as it left bespin not 3) when the whole point you agree with is, lando and leia got away.

Der Alte · Oct 4, 2019

drich0150 said:
● ● ●

<DH>
[1] Nor is there any/enough of your commentary to tie the useless information to the topic till much later.
[2] there are no less than 7 cherry pick (literally meaning 7 verses independently selected because they contain a specific word.
[3]Again this looks like lazy data dumping. 7 verses I'm supposed to read, and what? memorize before you even begin to make your first point?
[4-5] You are not preaching a sermon here you do not have to stretch this out as long as possible.
[6-8] To start off with a data dump tells me you are trying to prop up a weak ego or outragous idea. and as we are speaking on a really pointless topic...
[9] Why do I want to sift through a word search to try and figure out how it is you are setting you self up to be some sort of authority?
[10-11] So rather than 7 wordsearch verses with NO commentary the three exhaust paragraphs..
[12] I took 15 minutes of data dump then 3 paragraphs of puffed up reading and condensed it to one or two lines. then I directly laced this information under a specific topic.
[13-14] post number 3 and thousand of words and minnie points later here we still are on something as foolish as a typo or brain fart.
[15] How about take the plank of wordsearch dumping out of your eye,
[16] We are told if there is no love in what you say/do than the wisest man is little more than a clanging symbol.
[17-18] how clangy your message was to communicate there was one more guy in such away as to make you seem like a really smart guy,
[19] I say this because i do believe you are a smart guy who COULD help people if he wasn't caught up demonstrating how smart he was<DH>

● ● ●

Not bad only 18 insults in this post. Don't bother responding, I won't be here.

Dkh587 · Oct 4, 2019

Der Alter said:
Please show me at least one and possibly more examples in the O.T. where chaff is used exactly as you are claiming it is used in the N.T. In order for your claim to be true there must be one such example, more would be better.

I never said the wicked were

You have been claiming that separating the wheat from the chaff means separating the righteous from the unrighteous. According to you that is the way that Jesus' immediate audience, the Jews, would have understood it and further that formerly pagan gentiles would also have understood it the same way.

Chaff is mentioned 12 times in the O.T. Of that 4 do not refer to people. Those verses are marked with an asterisk.

Job 21:18, Psalms 1:4, Psalms 35:5, Isaiah 5:24, Isaiah 17:13, Isaiah 29:5, Isaiah 33:11,

Isaiah 41:15 *, Jeremiah 23:28,* Daniel 2:35,* Hosea 13:3, Zephaniah 2:2 *

None of them show a distinction between chaff and wheat or anything else.

You’ve cited several examples of the wicked being compared to chaff, even more than I did. John is continuing the theme of comparing the wicked to chaff(which started in the OT). He goes further and talks about them being burned up.

My original point was that the wicked were compared to chaff in the OT. You and I have both verified this. It wasn’t about how they were compared to chaff, just that they were compared to chaff.

what do you propose John was talking about when he spoke of the Messiah storing up the wheat in his barn and burning the chaff?

drich0150 · Oct 8, 2019

Der Alter said:
<DH>
[1] Nor is there any/enough of your commentary to tie the useless information to the topic till much later.
[2] there are no less than 7 cherry pick (literally meaning 7 verses independently selected because they contain a specific word.
[3]Again this looks like lazy data dumping. 7 verses I'm supposed to read, and what? memorize before you even begin to make your first point?
[4-5] You are not preaching a sermon here you do not have to stretch this out as long as possible.
[6-8] To start off with a data dump tells me you are trying to prop up a weak ego or outragous idea. and as we are speaking on a really pointless topic...
[9] Why do I want to sift through a word search to try and figure out how it is you are setting you self up to be some sort of authority?
[10-11] So rather than 7 wordsearch verses with NO commentary the three exhaust paragraphs..
[12] I took 15 minutes of data dump then 3 paragraphs of puffed up reading and condensed it to one or two lines. then I directly laced this information under a specific topic.
[13-14] post number 3 and thousand of words and minnie points later here we still are on something as foolish as a typo or brain fart.
[15] How about take the plank of wordsearch dumping out of your eye,
[16] We are told if there is no love in what you say/do than the wisest man is little more than a clanging symbol.
[17-18] how clangy your message was to communicate there was one more guy in such away as to make you seem like a really smart guy,
[19] I say this because i do believe you are a smart guy who COULD help people if he wasn't caught up demonstrating how smart he was<DH>
Not bad only 18 insults in this post. Don't bother responding, I won't be here.

These are not insults.
Insults are as defined here:
in·sult
verb
/inˈsəlt/

speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse.

I gave you a critical analasis of the body of your work considering how you admitted to having several people tell you that you have rather than address a subject you did a word search dump with them. As I did. It is because you overwhelm people with information they do not know what to do with. then when you start in on your commentary it does not seem nessary that you first verbally flog us with scripture then in this case ridicule me personally because I said 2 beings, in stead of 3 when the real point is it is a small number the bible has seen fit to mention they will burn in hell forever.

Again I did not contradict the main point but there was no less than 5 paragraphs on how superior your exegetical proweless was (via your word search dump) on the fact there where 3 instead of my reported 2.

This all seemed pointless self serving and a waste of time. So I simply shared another way you correction could have been made and one could mistake some of your efforts in having some love directed at them. After all isn't that why we are here?

Doesn't a wound from a brother better serve you than the accolades of someone who has no love for you?

I am sorry all you can see are petty insults. especially when I called you a really smart guy as I do believe you are to be as you are able to research and exegetically establish and defend a point well established in scripture. This is not an easy task. My point was though it does not matter how smart we are if we do not have love.

I still think if you where to show some love in how and what you write you could be a powerful go to for God.

Not trying to be insultey or mean. You made a complaint too many people claim you are data dumping. I am simply showing you why people think that

SkyWriting · Oct 26, 2019

RaymondG said:
Not so,

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Physically, we all will die.

RaymondG · Oct 26, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Physically, we all will die.

Do i guess your answer, to the Lord's question, would be "nay Lord, I do not believe this?"

SkyWriting · Oct 26, 2019

RaymondG said:
Do i guess your answer, to the Lord's question, would be "nay Lord, I do not believe this?"

Look around you. Do you see any person in the world
who has avoided death so far?
Yes, I might have said that to Jesus
if I did not understand what he was saying.

RaymondG · Oct 26, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Look around you. Do you see any person in the world
who has avoided death so far?
Yes, I might have said that to Jesus
if I did not understand what he was saying.

Think about it....If a 30 year old told you he was 130....would you believe them?

It is easy to think we know more than the religious who spent their lives in the temple studying scripture.....Therefore they rejected truth while we would not have. But this would be unwise.

Learn to look pass the flesh.....there is more to living, than not dying.

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