LDS LDS Jesus Could Have Lost His Godhood

He is the way

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Yes, like the Mormons who only believe it as long as it agrees with JS. They think it has been corrupted. They claim to believe it, and can endlessly quote it, but it is like a parrot who mimics. They only truly believe what their so called prophets have to say, not the bible.
There are people who only believe the parts of the Bible that there church leaders tell them to believe and do not believe the rest of it. We believe all of the Bible that has been translated correctly. There are parts that conflict. God does not repent.
 
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BigDaddy4

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(Book of Mormon | Moroni 7:3 - 17)

3 Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven.
4 And now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable walk with the children of men.
5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.
6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.
7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.
8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.
9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.
10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.
12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
You have demonstrated you know how to post random verses. Good for you!
 
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BigDaddy4

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We believe all of the Bible that has been translated correctly.
Which part has been "translated correctly"? The part that agrees with your man made doctrine? Show us specifics.
 
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dzheremi

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Also, doesn't this "so long as it has been translated correctly" intellectual escape hatch imply that there were those among the Mormons in JS' day (I'm assuming it was around the time of the first generation/s of Mormons that they came up with this principle, as JS did his famous 'translation' of the Bible) who could spot such errors relative to the Textus Receptus or whatever manscript(s) the KJV was translated from?

Who were these people? What were their names, and what were their qualifications? JS himself certainly couldn't be among them, as he could not even identify an old Greek psalter when he was given it to examine as a test of his 'translation' abilities.

That is particularly damning, as he supposedly claimed it to be a dictionary of Egyptian hieroglyphics, which is self-evidently impossible if you just know what words look like. Even if it were such a dictionary with all the Ancient Egyptian transliterated to Greek, it would be very obvious to anyone with even a passing knowledge of any form of Egyptian or Greek, as the two languages look very different from one another in terms of their structure. There's no confusing Timetremnkhimi with Koptiki Glossa ("Coptic language" in Coptic Egyptian and in Greek, respectively), and you would expect to find such entries/correspondences all over an actual dictionary, whereas a psalter is a book of Psalms and other devotions, which would likewise be identifiable on sight if JS were really such a great Bible translator or even just a student of the Bible. Seriously, what kind of person can't tell a book of Psalms from a dictionary, when they presumably know enough about what they're looking at to be able to determine in the first place that it is a dictionary?

A false prophet, I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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mmksparbud

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There are people who only believe the parts of the Bible that there church leaders tell them to believe and do not believe the rest of it. We believe all of the Bible that has been translated correctly. There are parts that conflict. God does not repent.


LOL! "Translated correctly" means, according to JS. Anytime that a correct translation has been shown you guys, including those that are a transliteration from the Hebrew, or any comments from Hebrew scholars, you reject them if they do not follow JS.
And you say God does not repent? That's another laugh!! You've gone on and on for pages and pages trying to show He does---like He repented from monogamous to demanding polygamy!! But you couldn't do it. The only kind of repentance that God has said in His word is when repents from a decision of inflict some sort of punishment, to either an individual or nation, and He then does not punish them---or when He said repented He had made man just before the flood.
 
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He is the way

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Which part has been "translated correctly"? The part that agrees with your man made doctrine? Show us specifics.
One verse says that God does not repent, other verses stated that He does, they are wrong God does not repent.
 
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dzheremi

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One verse says that God does not repent, other verses stated that He does, they are wrong God does not repent.

I don't believe that this is a translation issue at all (it's a theological issue, which may be influenced by whichever translation you use, but if you build your theology based on whichever particular translation you use, you're likely to run into trouble; see the first example directly below), but still a few things should probably be said to Mormons who think that it is.

I assume you are referring to Exodus 32:14 concerning God repenting, as that is what the KJV renders it as. The NKJV, however, translates it as "relent".

Remind us all again which translation is the preferred one in the Mormon religion... :rolleyes:

Interestingly, when I went to look up Genesis 6:6 (another verse that many people point to about God repenting) in the KJV, I found not "God repented", but rather "And it repented the Lord that..." That's not a common phrasing (anymore), but I'm willing to bet at any rate that it did not mean the exact same as "the Lord repented", since "the Lord repented" is found elsewhere (as in Exodus 32:14, already mentioned). The NKJV, NIV, NASB, and other western Bible translations render it as "regretted", or "was sorry", and both Exodus 32:14 and Genesis 6:6 use the same Hebrew verb (wayinnahem), so it seems that the semantic range of the verb, if we take all of these translations for both verses together (KJV too), is a bit wider than just "repent" vs. "relent", but can also include regret, sorrow, etc.

So my question now (as someone who doesn't know Hebrew and prefers translations that use the LXX as the base text whenever possible anyway; there it is ἱλάσθη in Exodus and ἐνεθυμήθη in Greek -- the former has several definitions, but "propitiate" is apparently primary, while the latter apparently means "ponder; think deeply of") is how does any Mormon who believes in this "translated correctly" principle know themselves that what they are using and basing their doctrine on is actually the most accurate of all possible translations?

Are you going to tell me that you all learn Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic, Koine Greek, and possibly other languages (Latin? Syriac? Coptic? Classical Armenian?) so as to properly evaluate the variety of existing translations of importance, and then make your decision based on such studious and informed perspectives?

Or do you just repeat this principle like a mantra without really thinking through its implications, only to go with absolutely anything your leaders tell you whether or not they actually know anything either?

Again, JS was such a great translator and scholar of ancient languages and Bible translations, and I'm sure Russel M. Nelson is, too. I mean, he would have to be to have worked as an assistant secretary at a bank before beginning his medical training, and then to become a medical doctor. A man named Dr. Mahfouz was a member of my parish back in NM, and he once told me that they wouldn't let him even begin his residency as an aspiring doctor until he could give the higher ups at his university a full account of the contents of both the Bodmer and Chester Beatty papyri! :D
 
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He is the way

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Also, doesn't this "so long as it has been translated correctly" intellectual escape hatch imply that there were those among the Mormons in JS' day (I'm assuming it was around the time of the first generation/s of Mormons that they came up with this principle, as JS did his famous 'translation' of the Bible) who could spot such errors relative to the Textus Receptus or whatever manscript(s) the KJV was translated from?

Who were these people? What were their names, and what were their qualifications? JS himself certainly couldn't be among them, as he could not even identify an old Greek psalter when he was given it to examine as a test of his 'translation' abilities.

That is particularly damning, as he supposedly claimed it to be a dictionary of Egyptian hieroglyphics, which is self-evidently impossible if you just know what words look like. Even if it were such a dictionary with all the Ancient Egyptian transliterated to Greek, it would be very obvious to anyone with even a passing knowledge of any form of Egyptian or Greek, as the two languages look very different from one another in terms of their structure. There's no confusing Timetremnkhimi with Koptiki Glossa ("Coptic language" in Coptic Egyptian and in Greek, respectively), and you would expect to find such entries/correspondences all over an actual dictionary, whereas a psalter is a book of Psalms and other devotions, which would likewise be identifiable on sight if JS were really such a great Bible translator or even just a student of the Bible. Seriously, what kind of person can't tell a book of Psalms from a dictionary, when they presumably know enough about what they're looking at to be able to determine in the first place that it is a dictionary?

A false prophet, I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Joseph Smith did not translate the fake kinderhook plates or the Greek psalter, which may not have been a Greek psalter at all. If it was Joseph Smith would have recognized it as he had studied Greek. Neither did Henry Caswall have any witnesses to this event if it even happened at all which I doubt.
 
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He is the way

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I don't believe that this is a translation issue at all (it's a theological issue, which may be influenced by whichever translation you use, but if you build your theology based on whichever particular translation you use, you're likely to run into trouble; see the first example directly below), but still a few things should probably be said to Mormons who think that it is.

I assume you are referring to Exodus 32:14 concerning God repenting, as that is what the KJV renders it as. The NKJV, however, translates it as "relent".

Remind us all again which translation is the preferred one in the Mormon religion... :rolleyes:

Interestingly, when I went to look up Genesis 6:6 (another verse that many people point to about God repenting) in the KJV, I found not "God repented", but rather "And it repented the Lord that..." That's not a common phrasing (anymore), but I'm willing to bet at any rate that it did not mean the exact same as "the Lord repented", since "the Lord repented" is found elsewhere (as in Exodus 32:14, already mentioned). The NKJV, NIV, NASB, and other western Bible translations render it as "regretted", or "was sorry", and both Exodus 32:14 and Genesis 6:6 use the same Hebrew verb (wayinnahem), so it seems that the semantic range of the verb, if we take all of these translations for both verses together (KJV too), is a bit wider than just "repent" vs. "relent", but can also include regret, sorrow, etc.

So my question now (as someone who doesn't know Hebrew and prefers translations that use the LXX as the base text whenever possible anyway; there it is ἱλάσθη in Exodus and ἐνεθυμήθη in Greek -- the former has several definitions, but "propitiate" is apparently primary, while the latter apparently means "ponder; think deeply of") is how does any Mormon who believes in this "translated correctly" principle know themselves that what they are using and basing their doctrine on is actually the most accurate of all possible translations?

Are you going to tell me that you all learn Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic, Koine Greek, and possibly other languages (Latin? Syriac? Coptic? Classical Armenian?) so as to properly evaluate the variety of existing translations of importance, and then make your decision based on such studious and informed perspectives?

Or do you just repeat this principle like a mantra without really thinking through its implications, only to go with absolutely anything your leaders tell you whether or not they actually know anything either?

Again, JS was such a great translator and scholar of ancient languages and Bible translations, and I'm sure Russel M. Nelson is, too. I mean, he would have to be to have worked as an assistant secretary at a bank before beginning his medical training, and then to become a medical doctor. A man named Dr. Mahfouz was a member of my parish back in NM, and he once told me that they wouldn't let him even begin his residency as an aspiring doctor until he could give the higher ups at his university a full account of the contents of both the Bodmer and Chester Beatty papyri! :D
I do believe that the JST is the most accurate translation of the Bible because it was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

We don't all learn Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic, Koine Greek although some do. That being said 10 people can see something and still come up with 10 different descriptions. Many words have several meanings.

(Old Testament | Numbers 23:19)

19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

(Old Testament | 1 Chronicles 21:15)

15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

(Old Testament | Jeremiah 26:13)

13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

(Old Testament | Amos 7:3 - 6)

3 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.
4 ¶ Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and, behold, the Lord GOD called to contend by fire, and it devoured the great deep, and did eat up a part.
5 Then said I, O Lord GOD, cease, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.
6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.

(Old Testament | Jonah 3:9 - 10)

9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 ¶ And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Quite a few scriptures and, as you say, the use of relent instead of repent should have been translated into English but wasn't in the KJV.

President Nelson became a doctor at the age of 22. He speaks four languages, French, Russian, Spanish, and Mandarin Chinese. He served in the Army in South Korea. He visited every M.A.S.H. unit in Korea and field hospitals as a representative of the Army. He has visited 129 nations. He has served as president of the Society for Vascular Surgery, a director of the American Board of Thoracic Surgery, chairman of the Council on Cardiovascular Surgery for the American Heart Association, and president of the Utah State Medical Association. He performed the first open heart surgery in Utah. He plays the piano and the organ. Now 95 years old many younger people have a hard time keeping up with him.
 
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dzheremi

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I do believe that the JST is the most accurate translation of the Bible because it was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Yet that's not the preferred translation in the LDS religion. We've been over this. It has been established by your coreligionists that it is the KJV. The one that claims that God repents. You know, the thing you said was wrong in your other post.

We don't all learn Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic, Koine Greek although some do.

Maybe those people who do should be the ones translating the scriptures in the Mormon religion, instead of ignorant farm boys prone to making up stories like Joseph Smith.

That being said 10 people can see something and still come up with 10 different descriptions. Many words have several meanings.

Yeah, that was my point, and why I asked how it is that you can know which translation is the most accurate if you don't have the necessary background knowledge.

Quite a few scriptures and, as you say, the use of relent instead of repent should have been translated into English but wasn't in the KJV.

I didn't say it should or shouldn't be translated any particular way. I opened my post by writing that I don't think this is a translation issue to begin with, and after that I only pointed out the range of meanings that seem to have come out when looking at different translations.

President Nelson became a doctor at the age of 22.

My own grandfather became a doctor at age 18, around the start of the Great Depression. What do I win? (And what does this have to do with anything?)

He speaks four languages, French, Russian, Spanish, and Mandarin Chinese. He served in the Army in South Korea. He visited every M.A.S.H. unit in Korea and field hospitals as a representative of the Army. He has visited 129 nations. He has served as president of the Society for Vascular Surgery, a director of the American Board of Thoracic Surgery, chairman of the Council on Cardiovascular Surgery for the American Heart Association, and president of the Utah State Medical Association. He performed the first open heart surgery in Utah. He plays the piano and the organ. Now 95 years old many younger people have a hard time keeping up with him.

What does any of this have to do with his ability to evaluate Bible translations?
 
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He is the way

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Yet that's not the preferred translation in the LDS religion. We've been over this. It has been established by your coreligionists that it is the KJV. The one that claims that God repents. You know, the thing you said was wrong in your other post.



Maybe those people who do should be the ones translating the scriptures in the Mormon religion, instead of ignorant farm boys prone to making up stories like Joseph Smith.



Yeah, that was my point, and why I asked how it is that you can know which translation is the most accurate if you don't have the necessary background knowledge.



I didn't say it should or shouldn't be translated any particular way. I opened my post by writing that I don't think this is a translation issue to begin with, and after that I only pointed out the range of meanings that seem to have come out when looking at different translations.



My own grandfather became a doctor at age 18, around the start of the Great Depression. What do I win? (And what does this have to do with anything?)



What does any of this have to do with his ability to evaluate Bible translations?
The JST is in the footnotes of our scriptures. Having read much of it I believe it is inspired and from God as are the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Each of us can evaluate the Bible translations and decide for ourselves what is from God and which is not. I don't need anyone to decide that for me. I know the difference between good and evil, right and wrong. I know that our spirit returns to God when we die and that we will reside in the spirit world until the resurrection while our bodies will return to the ground.
 
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Peter1000

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Jesus is our High priest, it is His judgement that counts.

Rev_22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

When Jesus returns, judgement has already been determined. He comes for the saved only. The only thing left to decide---was God just in His judgements? What will be the punishment of the wicked? The saved will get their reward when Jesus returns, it will be with Him. Theirs has already been decided. It is only the wicked that are left. We only get to see for ourselves, when the books are opened, why the lost are lost and the saved, saved. That is what the saved will be seeing during the 1000 years---why their sainted Aunt Bertha is lost and old very weird Uncle Joe, is saved. It not that we decide who is lost or saved. We will see the fair judgement of God.
What will be the reward Jesus is bringing with him?

What determines the reward we get from Jesus?
 
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Peter1000

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And no, you do not worship God. No way. This is not debatable, because you deny Him by what you yourself write and preach instead. None of us made you write that awful, God-denying rubbish.
Then the scriptures are God-denying rubbish. And that is simply rubbish. So don't malign the scriptures.

Read John 5:19-20 in conjunction with 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 and you will start to get just the beginning of what 'He is the way' is trying to tell you from the scriptures.
 
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dzheremi

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The JST is in the footnotes of our scriptures. Having read much of it I believe it is inspired and from God as are the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

Yet your religion would seem to not agree, relegating it to footnotes supporting/explaining the LDS religions' actual preferred translation, the KJV, instead of having the JST itself as its preferred translation. Curious.

Each of us can evaluate the Bible translations and decide for ourselves what is from God and which is not. I don't need anyone to decide that for me.

What are you talking about? Your religion decides for you what to accept as 'from God' and what not to. Remember -- the BOM, the D&C, the PoGP? Those things you just mentioned? You didn't decide that those were 'from God' on your own -- your religion tells you they are, so to be a good follower of that religion, you come to see things that way. Similarly, it is your religion (not you, using your own brain outside of the confines your religion has already placed on you) that even tells you to add this "insofar as it is translated correctly" caveat to actually believing in the Bible. If you had never heard that, you'd probably never consider that you could argue anything that disagrees with your religion to be a 'mistranslation'. I can guess this because I'm not a Mormon and never have been, so I'd never heard that this "insofar as it is translated correctly" point of doctrine before posting here. Having it as a point of doctrine or belief or whatever tells us (Christians) something very important about the Mormon religion: namely, that it will be based on the idea that Bible translations have been made to mislead people into following false doctrines. There is a very limited amount of this that takes place in actual Christian inter-church dialogues, usually in highly specialized/restricted contexts (say, between Catholics and Protestants concerning Luther's adding of the word "alone" to his translation of Romans 3:28), with most Christians understanding that, yes, all translations will tend towards certain doctrinal biases, but are usually a result of the milieu in which the translator finds himself rather than an actual intent to deceive. So it would take a lot more cynical view of the Bible and its various translations to elevate this "insofar as it is translated correctly" idea to a point of doctrine/dogma among actual Christians than it does among Mormons, because in the main a Christian can look at any Bible translation that is done by a mainstream Church (i.e., not LDS, not JW, etc., but your average Trinitarian Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox) and, even though they will notice differences in wording between different versions, they will be able to sort of 'adjust' for them relative to what they're used to in their own tradition, and still get basically the same understanding out of them as they would if they were to read a translation that they are more familiar with.

This is how my own Church, for instance, has successfully adopted the NKJV for its English readings, and the Smith-Van Dyck (SVD) translation for its Arabic ones. Both of these were made by Protestants, not Orthodox, and yet they are acceptable because they are easy to read and relatively faithful to what has been traditionally accepted in the Church already. (NB: Printed anything, including Bibles, only existed in Egypt since the days of HH Pope Kyrillos IV, r. 1854-1861, who brought the first printing press ever into the country and established a printing house for the publication of Church materials; before then, the only option to have printed Bibles in Arabic was to get them imported from Beirut, which is where the SVD was done, beginning in 1847.)

I know the difference between good and evil, right and wrong.

Well, then you're a better man than the prophet you follow, and have a better grasp on things than the religion he started.
 
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dzheremi

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Then the scriptures are God-denying rubbish. And that is simply rubbish. So don't malign the scriptures.

Read John 5:19-20 in conjunction with 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 and you will start to get just the beginning of what 'He is the way' is trying to tell you from the scriptures.

Peter, I know how to read the Bible, thank you, and it's not by the Mormon method of firing off random citations into the void in a desperate attempt to make novel doctrines seem like they're in there when they aren't.
 
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He is the way

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Yet your religion would seem to not agree, relegating it to footnotes supporting/explaining the LDS religions' actual preferred translation, the KJV, instead of having the JST itself as its preferred translation. Curious.



What are you talking about? Your religion decides for you what to accept as 'from God' and what not to. Remember -- the BOM, the D&C, the PoGP? Those things you just mentioned? You didn't decide that those were 'from God' on your own -- your religion tells you they are, so to be a good follower of that religion, you come to see things that way. Similarly, it is your religion (not you, using your own brain outside of the confines your religion has already placed on you) that even tells you to add this "insofar as it is translated correctly" caveat to actually believing in the Bible. If you had never heard that, you'd probably never consider that you could argue anything that disagrees with your religion to be a 'mistranslation'. I can guess this because I'm not a Mormon and never have been, so I'd never heard that this "insofar as it is translated correctly" point of doctrine before posting here. Having it as a point of doctrine or belief or whatever tells us (Christians) something very important about the Mormon religion: namely, that it will be based on the idea that Bible translations have been made to mislead people into following false doctrines. There is a very limited amount of this that takes place in actual Christian inter-church dialogues, usually in highly specialized/restricted contexts (say, between Catholics and Protestants concerning Luther's adding of the word "alone" to his translation of Romans 3:28), with most Christians understanding that, yes, all translations will tend towards certain doctrinal biases, but are usually a result of the milieu in which the translator finds himself rather than an actual intent to deceive. So it would take a lot more cynical view of the Bible and its various translations to elevate this "insofar as it is translated correctly" idea to a point of doctrine/dogma among actual Christians than it does among Mormons, because in the main a Christian can look at any Bible translation that is done by a mainstream Church (i.e., not LDS, not JW, etc., but your average Trinitarian Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox) and, even though they will notice differences in wording between different versions, they will be able to sort of 'adjust' for them relative to what they're used to in their own tradition, and still get basically the same understanding out of them as they would if they were to read a translation that they are more familiar with.

This is how my own Church, for instance, has successfully adopted the NKJV for its English readings, and the Smith-Van Dyck (SVD) translation for its Arabic ones. Both of these were made by Protestants, not Orthodox, and yet they are acceptable because they are easy to read and relatively faithful to what has been traditionally accepted in the Church already. (NB: Printed anything, including Bibles, only existed in Egypt since the days of HH Pope Kyrillos IV, r. 1854-1861, who brought the first printing press ever into the country and established a printing house for the publication of Church materials; before then, the only option to have printed Bibles in Arabic was to get them imported from Beirut, which is where the SVD was done, beginning in 1847.)



Well, then you're a better man than the prophet you follow, and have a better grasp on things than the religion he started.
You said: "Those things you just mentioned? You didn't decide that those were 'from God' on your own"

Yes I did because I have studied The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints and have found out for myself that it is God's true church. I also found out and know that we are the spirit that returns to God when we die a physical death:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 5:3 - 5)

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 5:6 - 8)

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:7)

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Spirits are angels:

(New Testament | Hebrews 1:13 - 14)

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
 
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dzheremi

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You said: "Those things you just mentioned? You didn't decide that those were 'from God' on your own"

Yes I did because I have studied The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints and have found out for myself that it is God's true church.

Really? You acquired all of those books on your own, and on your own you read them and decided that they were from God, with no other input from any other person or any wider theological framework? That is pretty astounding, especially since we have learned in past threads on the PGoP and D&C (one of which I started, if I remember correctly; it was a very long time ago) that these are not given out to investigators as a matter of course. How did you then manage to do that, if you don't mind me asking? (I'm not asking for how you got confirmation from God or whatever, but how you managed to find these materials if you didn't already know about them.)

It is not common for this sort of thing to happen, but I don't necessarily disbelieve you. I found the Coptic Orthodox Church 'all by myself' (i.e., not through missionary work, cultural ties, any previous exposure to it or knowledge of it, etc.) as an unintended result of trying to find more Christian content in the Arabic language while I was taking an Arabic class in college back in 2008-2009. They wanted us to learn about Islam, about Muhammad's family tree, and all of these other things that were admittedly likely very culturally important if we were going to be serious about learning Arabic. I was a Roman Catholic at the time, and had no use for anything Islamic (still don't), so after I had already stumbled upon and memorized the Good Friday Easter Hymns album by Fairouz (famous Lebanese singing legend from the 1950s until today, who converted to Greek Orthodoxy in the 1960s), I didn't know where else to turn. By chance I happened upon a sermon by HH Pope Shenouda III, the then-current Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church, which was subtitled in English, and I listened to it hoping that it would have a good message and help me learn more Arabic vocabulary. I did not expect to (and nor was I looking to) find my faith in it, or rather the faith I wanted to have but didn't know was specifically there (i.e., in the Egyptian Church), and didn't even know I wanted until I found it there.


So anyway, yes, it does happen, but since conversions like this (to Orthodoxy in my case, maybe to other things in other peoples' cases) are rather different than conversion to Mormonism, which is generally mediated through various LDS-guided steps to conversion (or so far as I observed in my own family years ago, when my then-stepmother converted), I would be interested to read about a conversion to Mormonism that was outside of reliance on the influence of the religious institution to guide the investigator in the way which they want him to go. Such 'independent' conversions are, I would suspect, rather more rare in Mormonism than in other religions, precisely because of Mormonism's known emphasis on its missionary program (which is laudable in itself, even though I obviously disagree with the religion as a faith).

If you are comfortable with sharing your story insofar as relates to the apparently independent nature of your path to Mormonism, I would be interested to read about it. If not, I totally understand. I don't go brandying my own conversion story in unrelated conversations, either. (I only brought it up here because I think it's an interesting potential parallel, given how different our respective destinations are.)
 
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He is the way

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Really? You acquired all of those books on your own, and on your own you read them and decided that they were from God, with no other input from any other person or any wider theological framework? That is pretty astounding, especially since we have learned in past threads on the PGoP and D&C (one of which I started, if I remember correctly; it was a very long time ago) that these are not given out to investigators as a matter of course. How did you then manage to do that, if you don't mind me asking? (I'm not asking for how you got confirmation from God or whatever, but how you managed to find these materials if you didn't already know about them.)

It is not common for this sort of thing to happen, but I don't necessarily disbelieve you. I found the Coptic Orthodox Church 'all by myself' (i.e., not through missionary work, cultural ties, any previous exposure to it or knowledge of it, etc.) as an unintended result of trying to find more Christian content in the Arabic language while I was taking an Arabic class in college back in 2008-2009. They wanted us to learn about Islam, about Muhammad's family tree, and all of these other things that were admittedly likely very culturally important if we were going to be serious about learning Arabic. I was a Roman Catholic at the time, and had no use for anything Islamic (still don't), so after I had already stumbled upon and memorized the Good Friday Easter Hymns album by Fairouz (famous Lebanese singing legend from the 1950s until today, who converted to Greek Orthodoxy in the 1960s), I didn't know where else to turn. By chance I happened upon a sermon by HH Pope Shenouda III, the then-current Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church, which was subtitled in English, and I listened to it hoping that it would have a good message and help me learn more Arabic vocabulary. I did not expect to (and nor was I looking to) find my faith in it, or rather the faith I wanted to have but didn't know was specifically there (i.e., in the Egyptian Church), and didn't even know I wanted until I found it there.


So anyway, yes, it does happen, but since conversions like this (to Orthodoxy in my case, maybe to other things in other peoples' cases) are rather different than conversion to Mormonism, which is generally mediated through various LDS-guided steps to conversion (or so far as I observed in my own family years ago, when my then-stepmother converted), I would be interested to read about a conversion to Mormonism that was outside of reliance on the influence of the religious institution to guide the investigator in the way which they want him to go. Such 'independent' conversions are, I would suspect, rather more rare in Mormonism than in other religions, precisely because of Mormonism's known emphasis on its missionary program (which is laudable in itself, even though I obviously disagree with the religion as a faith).

If you are comfortable with sharing your story insofar as relates to the apparently independent nature of your path to Mormonism, I would be interested to read about it. If not, I totally understand. I don't go brandying my own conversion story in unrelated conversations, either. (I only brought it up here because I think it's an interesting potential parallel, given how different our respective destinations are.)
Both of my parents were LDS and I was baptized when I was 8 years old. That being said, just like the apostle Peter, I needed to be converted. I had already studied the Old and New testament and the Book of Mormon along with church history. But I needed to know if it was true. There were mountains near my home so I went up into the mountains to pray. After I prayed nothing happened. However God does answer prayers, but it is in His own time and not ours. However God expects us to seek Him and that is what I did. God helped guide my path and eventually I like Peter, was converted. The Lord let me know that His church was restored to the earth through His prophet Joseph Smith. The Lord God knows that I know that and if I ever denied it I would be lying against God. I am a witness for Jesus Christ.
 
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