Mormons Heavenly is rather malicious when it comes to forgiveness

anna ~ grace · Oct 2, 2019

He is the way said:
The Bible states that repentance alone is not enough.

(New Testament | Matthew 3:7 - 8)

7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

(New Testament | Acts 26:20)

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

But we can still be assured that God has forgiven us.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9

Catholic and Orthodox Christians have the Sacrament of Confession. Catholic Christians also have penance and reparations that may be done, to heal the soul, help us to follow Christ better and be more conformed to Him, and to help others to respond to grace.

But this is still not the same as having no idea when God has forgiven us.

dzheremi · Oct 2, 2019

There is a huge difference between "bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance" and "It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you."

One is a command directed towards the Pharisees who were not doing that and does not say anything about the character of God (or at least wouldn't to Mormons, since you guys don't believe that Jesus Christ is God), and the other is a matter of speculation that is self-contradictory (again, you're both in control of when it happens and apparently can't know when it has happened) and says a lot about the character of God (that he messes around with your repentance, letting you think that it helps you while in the end deciding to put things off potentially for centuries before granting assurance that he has forgiven you; that he is bound by time in the first place, even in the afterlife; etc).

Ironhold · Oct 2, 2019

Chadrho said:
I didn't know this. Do they believe sin is a power under which humanity is bound? I thought they believed in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. How does that fit in with this idea that total repentance-I'm reading this as "perfection"-is possible? What's the point of the cross if "meeting all the requirements" is possible? Do they believe that intentions and desires are just as sinful as actions?

Maybe this post is not the place for all of these questions. This is new to me, so the thoughts just started to come.

From Proverbs 26:

11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

The Apostle Peter references this in his second epistle, chapter 22:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Simply put, God is *very* unhappy when people who know better return to their old ways.

It follows, then, that forgiveness isn't something one should request lightly.

After all, remember the parable Jesus spoke of the 10,000 talents (see Matthew 18). The man was forgiven a great debt, yet refused to forgive someone else's small debt. As punishment, the full force of his great debt was once more upon him.

public hermit · Oct 2, 2019

Ironhold said:
From Proverbs 26:

11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

The Apostle Peter references this in his second epistle, chapter 22:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Simply put, God is *very* unhappy when people who know better return to their old ways.

It follows, then, that forgiveness isn't something one should request lightly.

After all, remember the parable Jesus spoke of the 10,000 talents (see Matthew 18). The man was forgiven a great debt, yet refused to forgive someone else's small debt. As punishment, the full force of his great debt was once more upon him.

Thank you for responding to my question. Please understand that I don't want to offend, I just have questions.

I agree that forgiveness and requesting such should not be taken lightly. What is the Mormon position on sin? Is sin seen as a power that humanity is bound to, is it simply breaking God's commands, or other?

If you aren't interested in answering I completely understand.

He is the way · Oct 2, 2019

Gracia Singh said:
But we can still be assured that God has forgiven us.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9

Catholic and Orthodox Christians have the Sacrament of Confession. Catholic Christians also have penance and reparations that may be done, to heal the soul, help us to follow Christ better and be more conformed to Him, and to help others to respond to grace.

But this is still not the same as having no idea when God has forgiven us.

We are not in control of who God forgives, He is:

(Old Testament | Exodus 33:19)

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

(Old Testament | Exodus 34:7)

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

(New Testament | Romans 9:18)

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

(Old Testament | Jeremiah 36:7)

7 It may be they will present their supplication before the LORD, and will return every one from his evil way: for great is the anger and the fury that the LORD hath pronounced against this people.

Therefore we should turn from evil and sin no more:

(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 6)

1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

He is the way · Oct 2, 2019

dzheremi said:
There is a huge difference between "bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance" and "It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you."

One is a command directed towards the Pharisees who were not doing that and does not say anything about the character of God (or at least wouldn't to Mormons, since you guys don't believe that Jesus Christ is God), and the other is a matter of speculation that is self-contradictory (again, you're both in control of when it happens and apparently can't know when it has happened) and says a lot about the character of God (that he messes around with your repentance, letting you think that it helps you while in the end deciding to put things off potentially for centuries before granting assurance that he has forgiven you; that he is bound by time in the first place, even in the afterlife; etc).

Who said that we do not believe Jesus Christ is a God? He most certainly is a God.

Ironhold · Oct 2, 2019

Chadrho said:
Thank you for responding to my question. Please understand that I don't want to offend, I just have questions.

I agree that forgiveness and requesting such should not be taken lightly. What is the Mormon position on sin? Is sin seen as a power that humanity is bound to, is it simply breaking God's commands, or other?

If you aren't interested in answering I completely understand.

Straight from an actual church manual:

Sin

It's got the basic definition, the theological stance, and secondary links to related topics.

He is the way · Oct 2, 2019

Chadrho said:
Thank you for responding to my question. Please understand that I don't want to offend, I just have questions.

I agree that forgiveness and requesting such should not be taken lightly. What is the Mormon position on sin? Is sin seen as a power that humanity is bound to, is it simply breaking God's commands, or other?

If you aren't interested in answering I completely understand.

Sin is the breaking of God's commandments of LOVE.:

(New Testament | 1 John 3:4)

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

God gave us commandments so we could learn the true meaning of LOVE.

public hermit · Oct 2, 2019

Ironhold said:
Straight from an actual church manual:

Sin

It's got the basic definition, the theological stance, and secondary links to related topics.

He is the way said:
Sin is the breaking of God's commandments of LOVE.:

(New Testament | 1 John 3:4)

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

God gave us commandments so we could learn the true meaning of LOVE.

Thank you. That is helpful in regard to my questions.

miggles · Oct 2, 2019

that's another way of saying "go, and sin no more."

eleos1954 · Oct 2, 2019

He is the way said:
The Bible states that repentance alone is not enough.

(New Testament | Matthew 3:7 - 8)

7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

(New Testament | Acts 26:20)

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

I think where issues arise is around works and where they come from, and why we have them.

One can not "work" their way to salvation. Obtain salvation from works alone they do.

If one is saved by faith in Jesus ... and they will have works as evidence of their faith in Jesus ... and the works are not of themselves, but Christ working through the believer.

I do not know what the Morman belief is in regard to this.

He is the way · Oct 2, 2019

eleos1954 said:
I think where issues arise is around works and where they come from, and why we have them.

One can not "work" their way to salvation. Obtain salvation from works alone they do.

If one is saved by faith in Jesus ... and they will have works as evidence of their faith in Jesus ... and the works are not of themselves, but Christ working through the believer.

I do not know what the Morman belief is in regard to this.

We believe that we are saved by grace after all that we can do. All would be lost without the atonement of Jesus Christ. He is indeed the Savior.

eleos1954 · Oct 2, 2019

He is the way said:
We believe that we are saved by grace after all that we can do. All would be lost without the atonement of Jesus Christ. He is indeed the Savior.

When do you know you have done all you can do?

All would be lost without the atonement of Jesus Christ. He is indeed the Savior.

Absolutely agree on those two points.

dzheremi · Oct 2, 2019

He is the way said:
Who said that we do not believe Jesus Christ is a God? He most certainly is a God.

That's not what I wrote in the first place. You inserted "a" in there. You don't believe that Jesus Christ is God, only "a" God.

(Pictured: totally unrelated picture of some kind of animal in some kind of setting.

)

Peter1000 · Oct 2, 2019

twin.spin said:
I realize that Mormon apologists would not agree and say otherwise … but take this for example by LDS prophet Spencer Kimball on Mormons Heavenly Father's forgiveness:

Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works - many works - and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and "a broken heart and a contrite spirit." It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes.

That's right, the Mormon Heavenly Father does not grant forgiveness merely for the asking.
What's more …there is no knowing how long, it depends ( as in centuries! ) before you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. And of course it all depends on you.

Pretty malicious compared to the Biblical Lord and God where forgiveness is granted merely for the asking and where the positive assurance that sins are not remembered more. Biblical Christianity teaches that God forgives us freely because Jesus has already paid the entire debt of our sin.

"I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah_43:25

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." Hebrews_8:12

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Acts_10:43

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;" Ephesians_1:7

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:" Colosians_1:14

Yet you did not quote the most important "forgiveness" scripture given to us by Jesus himself.
Matthew 6:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Do your scriptures from Paul trump what Jesus says?

Jesus also says this:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Here is how you reconcile the 2 seemingly conflicting scriptures. Here is how we do it.

If you do what Matthew 6 tells you to do, then you really do believe and you will have everlasting life.
If you do not what Matthew 6 tells you to do, then you do not really believe and you will not have everlasting life.

Do you agree?

Peter1000 · Oct 2, 2019

eleos1954 said:
When do you know you have done all you can do?

Absolutely agree on those two points.

One thing we know, that we can never do enough to work our way into heaven. But we also know that we do not lay in front of the tv day in and day out and think that we are doing what the Savior would have us do.

So we do what we can for the Lord and trust that by his grace we are saved. A lot of disabled people who believe in Jesus, that cannot get out and do a lot for the Lord, but he knows their situation and can trust that the Lord will save them too.

There are all kinds of circumstances that only God can judge righteously. So again, we believe in Jesus and we do what we can to help him in his work of saving souls, and we trust that he will save us in his kingdom.

Peter1000 · Oct 2, 2019

dzheremi said:
That's not what I wrote in the first place. You inserted "a" in there. You don't believe that Jesus Christ is God, only "a" God.

(Pictured: totally unrelated picture of some kind of animal in some kind of setting. )

Here is a description of God the Father by Paul to Timothy:
1 Timothy 6:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Paul says his God is like this:
1) The only Potentate
2) The King of kings
3) The Lord of lords
4) The only one that hath immortality
5) Dwells in a light which no man can approach
6) Whom no man hath seen
7) Whom no man can see

I would agree that some of the descriptions on this list can be qualities of Jesus, but not all of them. For instance, he does not dwell in a light that no man can approach. Thousands of men have seen him. And thousands will see him again.

So this description of God is not the description of Jesus. There therefore:
1) Jesus is not God
OR
2) Jesus is another God with a slightly different description.

I go with 2, since we know Jesus is the Son of God and a God in his own right, with a slightly different description of how the scripture (1 Timothy 16:14-16) describes his God and Father (John 20:17).

anna ~ grace · Oct 2, 2019

He is the way said:
We are not in control of who God forgives, He is:

(Old Testament | Exodus 33:19)

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

(Old Testament | Exodus 34:7)

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

(New Testament | Romans 9:18)

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

(Old Testament | Jeremiah 36:7)

7 It may be they will present their supplication before the LORD, and will return every one from his evil way: for great is the anger and the fury that the LORD hath pronounced against this people.

Therefore we should turn from evil and sin no more:

(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 6)

1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

But, Sir, God is also clear that He pardons those who truly repent.

Ezekiel 18:21-28

Presbyterian Continuist · Oct 2, 2019

JohnAshton said:
Would it not be more helpful for you to concentrate on your relationship with Jesus than worry about what you consider to be others' gospel failings. I don't see Mormon doctrine as 'malicious' anymore than I see OSAS as malicious.

This is not about me at all, so there is no cause to turn this into a personal tit for tat exchange. All I am doing is repeating what the Apostle Paul clearly wrote in the book of Galatians. He was quite clear that those who preached a gospel of good works preached a false gospel, and Paul clearly said that those who preach a false gospel are accursed.

anna ~ grace · Oct 2, 2019

Peter1000 said:
Here is a description of God the Father by Paul to Timothy:
1 Timothy 6:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Paul says his God is like this:
1) The only Potentate
2) The King of kings
3) The Lord of lords
4) The only one that hath immortality
5) Dwells in a light which no man can approach
6) Whom no man hath seen
7) Whom no man can see

I would agree that some of the descriptions on this list can be qualities of Jesus, but not all of them. For instance, he does not dwell in a light that no man can approach. Thousands of men have seen him. And thousands will see him again.

So this description of God is not the description of Jesus. There therefore:
1) Jesus is not God
OR
2) Jesus is another God with a slightly different description.

I go with 2, since we know Jesus is the Son of God and a God in his own right, with a slightly different description of how the scripture (1 Timothy 16:14-16) describes his God and Father (John 20:17).

Incarnation.

With all due respect, the Church, the real Church, figured this out in detail through the Council of Nicea, Ephesus, and others.

The thing is, Mormonism has no historical or ecclesial claim on actual Christian history. So, sadly, an understanding of the nature of God, the incarnation, the full deity and full humanity of Christ, is going to be based on what Joseph Smith concluded that Scripture meant; not on God's revelation to man.

Mormons Heavenly is rather malicious when it comes to forgiveness

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