Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

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BABerean2

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Sounds like the work of a myth and fable to me which is why it cannot be taken seriously.

The most important genealogy in the Bible is found below in the first verse of the New Testament.

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.



The Apostle Paul revealed below that all other genealogies now mean nothing.

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.


You are promoting a doctrine built on a myth(fable) Paul was referring to in 1 Timothy 1:4. This Two Peoples of God doctrine claims God now has a relationship with some people, based on who their father and mother would be (genealogies). The doctrine only works by ignoring what Paul said above. (See also what John said in 1 John 2:22-23.)

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.
 
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The most important genealogy in the Bible is found below in the first verse of the New Testament.

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.



The Apostle Paul revealed below that all other genealogies now mean nothing.

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.


You are promoting a doctrine built on a myth(fable) Paul was referring to in 1 Timothy 1:4. This Two Peoples of God doctrine claims God now has a relationship with some people, based on who their father and mother would be (genealogies). The doctrine only works by ignoring what Paul said above. (See also what John said in 1 John 2:22-23.)

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.


That God promised forever preserve Israel as a nation and people is not a myth or fable. (Jer. 30:11)

That a day would in come in which they would be permanent residents in the Holy Land is not a myth or fable. (Ezek. 37:25, Am. 9:16)

That Israel will one day embrace their Messiah is not a myth or fable. (Zech. 13:9, Rom. 9:27, 11:26)

The Apostle Paul did not believe it to be a myth or fable that all things pertaining to Israel could be restored to them (Rom. 11:12, 15)

The myths and fables come from those who deny that God is faithful in keeping His promises and is unchangeable.
 
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BABerean2

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The myths and fables come from those who deny that God is faithful in keeping His promises and is unchangeable.

All the promises of God made in the Old Testament are found fulfilled in the verse below.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


If you have any doubts see Luke 24:25-27.

Either you are wrong, or Christ is wrong in the scripture found above.

God sent His Son to die a cruel death at Calvary, for the sins of all races of people, but you say God has not fulfilled all of His promises to the blood relatives of the Messiah.
What did Paul say in Romans 9:8, and Romans 11:1-5?

What does Hebrews 11:15-16 say about the land promise?

Do you think God's sacrifice of His Son was not enough for a certain group of people, based on who their mother, and father would be?
If you do, you are promoting some form of Dual-Covenant Theology, based on race.

.
 
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All the promises of God made in the Old Testament are found fulfilled in the verse below.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


If you have any doubts see Luke 24:25-27.

Either you are wrong, or Christ is wrong in the scripture found above.


.


Aside from the salvation that we receive in Christ which He accomplished for through His death on the cross and His resurrection, if all of the promises of God were fulfilled at the cross, why is there still death in the world? Why is there no new heavens and new earth? Why do we not see the wolf lying down with the lamb?

The Old Testament declares that death would be conquered (Is. 25:8) and yet there is still death in the world.
The Old Testament promised a new heavens and a new earth (Is. 65:17, 66:22) and yet we still live in a dying world.
The Old Testament promises that God would make His dwelling among men (Ezek. 40-47) but He has not yet done so.
The Old Testament promises that all tears would be wiped away (Is. 25:8) and yet we still cry tears.

Why have we not seen those promises fulfilled yet?
 
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God sent His Son to die a cruel death at Calvary, for the sins of all races of people, but you say God has not fulfilled all of His promises to the blood relatives of the Messiah.
What did Paul say in Romans 9:8, and Romans 11:1-5?


What does Hebrews 11:15-16 say about the land promise?

Do you think God's sacrifice of His Son was not enough for a certain group of people, based on who their mother, and father would be?
If you do, you are promoting some form of Dual-Covenant Theology, based on race.

The sufficiency of the sacrifice that Christ made for the sins of the world is not what is being debated on this thread. And unless you are a five-point Calvinist, whether or not He died for the sins of the whole world is not up for dispute either.

What is being debated is whether or not the Jewish people are still destined to be restored to their homeland and what that also means for us.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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What is being debated is whether or not the Jewish people are still destined to be restored to their homeland and what that also means for us.
They were already restored, millions of them, to the land Yahuweh gave them.

What it means for the world will be (one day) great rejoicing when the Jews who once rejected Yahushua Hamashich turn and cry out "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME ADONAI!" as written in harmony in Scripture.

Until then, the world hates them as it hates Jesus.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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All the promises of God made in the Old Testament are found fulfilled in the verse below.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


If you have any doubts see Luke 24:25-27.

Either you are wrong, or Christ is wrong in the scripture found above.

God sent His Son to die a cruel death at Calvary, for the sins of all races of people, but you say God has not fulfilled all of His promises to the blood relatives of the Messiah.
What did Paul say in Romans 9:8, and Romans 11:1-5?

What does Hebrews 11:15-16 say about the land promise?

Do you think God's sacrifice of His Son was not enough for a certain group of people, based on who their mother, and father would be?
If you do, you are promoting some form of Dual-Covenant Theology, based on race.
.

A few commentaries:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

Replacement Theology, supersessionism: Christians are God's Jews. The church is true Israel.

Most churches teach replacement theology so this should be quite easy for you to see…


  1. …you believe the Bible when it says Christians are the true Jews today: Romans 2:28-29: "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. ", "for we [Christians] are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, " (Philippians 3:3)
  2. …you believe that Israel is the church: "For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel [church] of God." (Galatians 6:15-16) The peace in this passage is for those who walk according to Christ so CANNOT refer to fleshly/physical Israel that utterly rejects Christ.
  3. …you believe Jews must believe in Jesus to be saved and are as lost as Muslims and atheists until they do. (Jn 3:16; Jn 14:6)
  4. …you believe the New Testament (second covenant) of Jesus Christ replaced the Old Testament (first covenant) Jer 31:31 + Heb 8:6-13
  5. …you believe that keeping both the First and Second covenants at the same time is like a woman married to two men at the same time (Romans 6:1-7)
  6. …you believe the body of the Christian is the temple that God dwells in today not some building made of stone, wood or curtains. (1 Cor 3:16; 6:19-20)
  7. …you believe the Saturday Sabbath was abolished and Christians worship on the first day of the week (Sunday).
  8. …you believe the calendar of 7 Jewish feasts are not to be kept by Christians: Passover (Pesach), Unleavened Bread (Chag Hamotzi), First Fruits (Yom habikkurim), Pentecost (Shavu'ot), Trumpets (Yom Teru'ah), Atonement (Yom Kippur), Tabernacles (Sukkot).
  9. …you believe that the entire law of Moses has been abrogated and replaced by the law of Christ and that if you want to keep just one part of the law of Moses, YOU MUST KEEP IT ALL!
  10. …if you believe that you do not need to be circumcised to be saved. Acts 15:1-3
  11. …if you believe there is no distinction in the mind of God towards all men: Jew or gentile, rich or poor, male or female (Gal 3:28-29)
 
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BABerean2

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What is being debated is whether or not the Jewish people are still destined to be restored to their homeland and what that also means for us.

Are you saying the Son of God dying on the cross to allow those who belong to Him to gain eternal life is not enough for a certain group of people, based on who their mother and father would be?

How long are you going to ignore the land promise found in Hebrews 11:15-16?

How long are you going to ignore what Paul said about genealogies in Titus 3:9?


How long are you going to ignore the New Covenant promised to Israel, and Judah, in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century, in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18?
Which promises to Israel are not fulfilled by the New Covenant?


.
 
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BABerean2

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They were already restored, millions of them, to the land Yahuweh gave them.

What it means for the world will be (one day) great rejoicing when the Jews who once rejected Yahushua Hamashich turn and cry out "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME ADONAI!" as written in harmony in Scripture.

Until then, the world hates them as it hates Jesus.


But their restoration in full will not be completed until the return of the Messiah.
 
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Are you saying the Son of God dying on the cross to allow those who belong to Him to gain eternal life is not enough for a certain group of people, based on who their mother and father would be?

How long are you going to ignore the land promise found in Hebrews 11:15-16?

How long are you going to ignore what Paul said about genealogies in Titus 3:9?


How long are you going to ignore the New Covenant promised to Israel, and Judah, in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century, in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18?
Which promises to Israel are not fulfilled by the New Covenant?


.


How does land restoration interfere with the redemptive work of Christ for anyone?
How long are you going to require God to cancel out even the least of promises in order to fulfill the greater promises?
How long are you going to hold to a doctrine that makes God, who is faithful, unchanging, and cannot lie, out to be a God who is not faithful in keeping all of His promises, who is subject to change, and who lies?
 
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keras

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That God promised forever preserve Israel as a nation and people is not a myth or fable. (Jer. 30:11)
Your mistake is in assuming that the Jews are all of Israel.
Not only do the Jews themselves admit that the ten Northern tribes remain scattered among the nations, but it is impossible for the Jews to have fulfilled all the prophesies about each of the tribes, as Jacob and Moses prophesied.
God will preserve Israel; as a faithful Christian nation, comprised of people from every tribe of ancient Israel, every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b-21 prophesies their gathering into all of the holy Land.
Any other theory on who are the Lord's people, is false. There is only one people of God.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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God will preserve Israel; as a faithful Christian nation, comprised of people from every tribe of ancient Israel, every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b-21 prophesies their gathering into all of the holy Land.
Perhaps it is just the definition / meaning of "Christian nation", but no, this doesn't happen.
In the Apocalypse, and in Hebrews, the "Christian" church(es) , are not even mentioned at all. Ekklesia is , but not the "church(es)" with any current contemporary common understanding of what the church(es) is/are.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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How many times are you going to post the above without correcting it?
Where in Holford's book does it claim all of Matthew 24 was fulfilled during 70 AD.
"The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!"
You may want to start by reading the book...
If you got a problem with it, contact the site to take it off.

1 Peter 4:7 "THE END OF ALL THINGS IS NIGH AT HAND"

This is a passage I have long looked at and thought I would create a thread on it and look at this verse in relation to the Olivet Discourse and Revelation.

1 Peter 4:7

Of all-things<3956> yet, the End<5056> is nigh<1448>.
Be sane<4993> then, and be sober<3529> into the prayers
 
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Your mistake is in assuming that the Jews are all of Israel.
Not only do the Jews themselves admit that the ten Northern tribes remain scattered among the nations, but it is impossible for the Jews to have fulfilled all the prophesies about each of the tribes, as Jacob and Moses prophesied.
God will preserve Israel; as a faithful Christian nation, comprised of people from every tribe of ancient Israel, every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b-21 prophesies their gathering into all of the holy Land.
Any other theory on who are the Lord's people, is false. There is only one people of God.


That is not a mistake because the distinction between Judah and the Northern Kingdom disappeared from scripture starting with the book of Ezra and from that day forth, all Israelites became known as Jews in fulfillment of Ezekiel 37:16-19.

I do agree with one thing: Israel will become a faithful Christian nation because the surviving Jews who are brought through the forthcoming tribulation will embrace their Messiah.
 
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BABerean2

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If you got a problem with it, contact the site to take it off.

Everyone here should have a problem with you repeatedly making a claim about Holford's book, which you admitted you have not read, in order to make your 70 AD doctrine work...

If you are not being honest, why is it my problem?


.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Everyone here should have a problem with you repeatedly making a claim about a book you have not read, in order to make your 70 AD doctrine work...
.
Take it up with staff...........

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

  • Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.
  • The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.
Millennialism:
  • Amillennialism: "no millennium", rejects the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth. The amillennial viewpoint holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age.
  • Premillennialism: is the belief that Jesus Christ will literally and physically be on the earth for his millennial reign at his second coming. The doctrine is called premillennialism because it holds that Jesus' physical return to earth will occur prior to the inauguration of the millennium.
  • Postmillennialism: is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after the "Millennium", a Golden Age in which Christian ethics prosper.
==================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The Destruction Of JERUSALEM
An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY:
INCLUDING A NARRATIVE OFTHE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS


By George Peter Holford
(Written in 1805)

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."

(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)


PREFACE

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION ; together with the impressive and terrific grandeur of the events themselves -- are circumstances which must always insure to the subject of the following pages more than ordin
 
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Luke 24:25

"Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:"



The promise of the restoration of the nation of Israel is found in the old covenant:

Deuteronomy 30:1-5 When all these things come upon you—the blessings and curses I have set before you—and you call them to mind in all the nations to which the LORD your God has banished you, and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey His voice with all your heart and all your soul according to everything I am giving you today, then He will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you from all the nations to which the LORD your God has scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the ends of the earth, He will gather you and return you from there. And the LORD your God will bring you into the land your fathers possessed, and you will take possession of it. He will cause you to prosper and multiply more than your fathers. The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, and you will love Him with all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live.

The Old testament prophecies of the restoration of the land of Israel are rooted in the clause of Deuteronomy 30:1-5. Several examples include:

Jeremiah 29:10-14 For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

Ezekiel 39:25-28 Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and will have compassion on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for My holy name. They will forget their disgrace and all the treachery they committed against Me, when they dwell securely in their land, with no one to frighten them. When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them out of the lands of their enemies, I will show My holiness in them in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, when I regather them to their own land, after exiling them among the nations, not leaving any of them behind

Amos 9:14-15 I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them,” says the Lord your God.

This was found fulfilled once under the old covenant, when those from the southern kingdom and northern kingdom returned to the land after the Babylonian exile.

Ezra 1:5 Then rose up the heads of the fathers’ houses of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and the Levites, everyone whose spirit God had stirred to go up to rebuild the house of the Lord that is in Jerusalem.

1 Chronicles 9:1-4 So all Israel was recorded in genealogies, and these are written in the Book of the Kings of Israel. And Judah was taken into exile in Babylon because of their breach of faith. Now the first to dwell again in their possessions in their cities were Israel, the priests, the Levites, and the temple servants. And some of the people of Judah, Benjamin, Ephraim, and Manasseh lived in Jerusalem: Uthai the son of Ammihud, son of Omri, son of Imri, son of Bani, from the sons of Perez the son of Judah

However, the old covenant ended and was superseded by the new covenant through the blood of Christ.


Hebrews 10:9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second

Hebrews 9:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Additionally, the old covenant was only a shadow that was meant to point to Christ, and not the true reality.

Hebrews 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities,

colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.


The old covenant is no longer in effect, as it was superseded by the new covenant. Thus, the promises of restoration to the land are no longer a valid.

an Earthly example to help understand:
I was single and created a will in which my best friend would inherit my estate in the event of my death. However, I later married and changed that will so that my wife, and not my friend, would inherit my estate in the event of my death. The new will cancels the old will, and thus my best friend would not inherit my estate.


So is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?
 
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