An argument for free will

zoidar said:

I understood you as our choice within the spectrum of possible choices was decided by circumstances, upbringing, physiology etc. I believe in a free will outside of that.

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Please understand that this topic is laced in semantic pitfalls that lead to misunderstandings and inevitable disagreements based on the semantics. That's why a coherent definition of free will is necessary.

For example. What about the knowledge of God, what about wisdom? Do these attributes contribute to choosing wisely?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Possibly not.

What if someone has to make a decision, but have no true information, moral or otherwise, about something that harms many people, particularly the one that they are in touch with ?
They may unwittingly harm many people , never meaning to hurt anyone, but do anyway because they are told to.

They did not know they were choosing an immoral nor harmful direction/choice, yet for their circumstance, job, school, family, church, or whatever, had to make a choice, not knowing right from wrong....

(they probably truly believe they are choosing what is right and moral; as is often the way it is in life everywhere today)

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True. But not knowing right and wrong subjectively speaking, does not mean they don't choose between right and wrong objectively speaking. That is what I meant. This goes to the argument of whether or not truth is purely subjective or does Truth exist objectively speaking. And by extension is God Love and does His Spirit inform our morality?

devin553344 said:

Sure but what about, God can't judge you unless you choose freely of your own will.

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I believe that thought should be tempered since God shows forbearance because we are sometimes weak in the flesh. Hence God judges us according to the measure we use to judge others.

zoidar said:

God knows what I choose, therefore what I choose must have been predestined. Really? What I choose God knows, therefore my choice determines what God knows. See the difference?

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God doesn't learn. Period.

zoidar said:

What I choose God knows, therefore my choice determines what God knows

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That sounds like Molinism, which is the idea that God knows all possible human choices no matter what the circumstances. So, God brings into existence the world that fits God's plan based on God's foreknowledge of what humans will freely choose in that world.

Here's my question: Isn't the biblical view of freedom very different than the idea that freedom is my ability to choose whatever I want? Pace Paul, I am either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. There is no in-between. In this case, I am free, if and only if, I obey God's will. That is true freedom. The idea of freedom that many seem to hold is that I am only free if I am able to sin, i.e. if I am able to do what is not God's will. Isn't that an odd view of freedom? I am only free if I am free to sin?

zoidar said:

God knows what I choose, therefore what I choose must have been predestined. Really? What I choose God knows, therefore my choice determines what God knows. See the difference?

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So, God is just the big fortune teller in the sky then. Why can't people just accept that God is in control of all things? Oh, that's right....because that interferes with your beloved ET doctrine.

Chadrho said:

That sounds like Molinism, which is the idea that God knows all possible human choices no matter what the circumstances. So, God brings into existence the world that fits God's plan based on God's foreknowledge of what humans will freely choose in that world.

Here's my question: Isn't the biblical view of freedom very different than the idea that freedom is my ability to choose whatever I want? Pace Paul, I am either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. There is no in-between. In this case, I am free, if and only if, I obey God's will. That is true freedom. The idea of freedom that many seem to hold is that I am only free if I am able to sin, i.e. if I am able to do what is not God's will. Isn't that an odd view of freedom? I am only free if I am free to sin?

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Great points. And this is why the term free will is often understood/misunderstood as an equivocation between two masters.

zoidar said:

Starting this thread may have been a mistake. I just felt happy when I heard it from W L Craig and wanted to share it. Not to upset those who don't believe in free will, but to give something to those that do.

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No fears. It's a great thread, otherwise I wouldn't be here.

I didn't say I don't believe in free will, nor did anyone else. We're trying to define the term, that's all. Eastern Orthodox I am told, define the term "free will" as a will that always wills the good without deliberation. This would speak also to the desire of a will rather than just the ability to reason and choose.

mothcorrupteth said:

Calvinists argue that "God chooses what I choose."

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Very interesting statement. Does that mean that God made the choice for Adam to choose to eat the forbidden fruit?

martymonster said:

So, God is just the big fortune teller in the sky then. Why can't people just accept that God is in control of all things? Oh, that's right....because that interferes with your beloved ET doctrine.

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Considering that God will hold those who know much the more accountable, I pray that we all show grace towards one another.

MDC said:

You can only make choices according to your desire and nature. Mans choices work within the confines of Gods Sovereignty. This you do not believe. Your argument is for libertarian free will. An autonomous will that operates outside Gods control. This belief in essence is rooted in mans fallen nature and stems from a prideful heart that resembles no truth whatsoever

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I don't disagree with this, but let's not be proud about what God does for us in bestowing wisdom. Your statement "this you do not believe" could be taken as condemning by the person you're responding to. I'm advising we show grace and understanding.

JM said:

God doesn't learn. Period.

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Well God doesn't learn, that is true. I thought your statement was funny because you state so succinctly what we all should know. I'm simply laughing at myself.

mothcorrupteth said:

Well, with all respect to yourself and Mr. Craig, it gets one thing wrong: Calvinists do not generally argue that "God knows what I choose." Calvinists argue that "God chooses what I choose."

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You seem awfully quick to make this about Calvinism. The OP did not mention Calvinism. The concept of predestination vs. free will has nothing to do with Calvinism only. It is a biblical doctrinal debate that everything theologian of every stripe must consider if he's going to be thorough.

At any rate - that is simply not correct - not even close to correct.

In Calvinism - the predestination of everything that happens in God's creation in no way negates the free will of men.

God chooses whether or not He will allow you to make a choise. But He does not make your choices for you and force you to make them.

There is a HUGE difference.

The Westminster Confession of Faith is generally considered the best authority on Calvinistic doctrine concerning this subject.

It says many things about this subject - only one of which is the following.

"God from all eternity did by the most and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

Calvinism clearly teaches that the liberty and the will of men is in no way interfered with by God. Rather He uses the choices of men, both good and evil, among many other things, to bring to pass what He has predestined to occur.

zoidar said:

God knows what I choose, therefore what I choose must have been predestined. Really? What I choose God knows, therefore my choice determines what God knows. See the difference?

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God knows what you choose, but He didn't make the choice. However, your choices were already part of the tapestry of creation before you were conceived - so you don't have free will. You have the freedom to choose how to respond to the thing that happen to you - but you don't have free will and control over anything.

In fact, only holy entities have free will - but as a consequence of their holiness, they submit 100% of their will to the Most High God (like the Redeemer). So, really everything follows the will of God, not any will of man, beast, fallen, or otherwise. Carnal, sinful entities like us do not get the luxury of free will; we would destroy each other even quicker than we do now.

"Freewill is sin."

zoidar said:

I have never heard about molinism. To me since God is outside time He is both in the past and in the future. God has seen the whole "movie" but we have made the movie God has seen together with Him by our past and future free will choices.

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I agree that God is outside time. I assume time is part of creation, but that is another thread, perhaps. I won't push you on your position on free-will, because I take it that was not your intention in posting.

Molinism has been around for a long time, partly because these kinds of questions have been around for...well since the Dead Sea was sick. If you are interested the link below might help (William Lane Craig).

Molinism vs. Calvinism | Reasonable Faith

JM said:

God doesn't learn. Period.

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Right on.

They make sure you know that in the first year of any good seminary education by asking you the question:

"Has it ever occurred to you that nothing has ever occurred to God?

"Omniscience means all-knowing. God is all all-knowing in the sense that he is aware of the past, present, and future. Nothing takes him by surprise. His knowledge is total."