Children in the Rapture?

JacksBratt · Oct 1, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Zoom! Right over your head.

This is going to explain it better than I can:What did Paul mean in 1 Corinthians 7: 14 when he said children of a believer are holy, not unclean?

While the believer’s conduct may be a powerful example for the unbelieving mate, he or she can usually go further than just setting an example to the children. A believing parent can actively teach them God’s way and directly develop their understanding and relationship with Him. Without the influence of a converted parent, children in the household would be no different from others who, in ignorance, disobey God and lead spiritually “unclean” lives. However, because of the parent’s conversion and relationship with God, such children are in a special category. Although not baptized, they are part of the “holy nation,” the Church (1 Peter 2:9). They also have special access to the knowledge of God’s way of life.

JacksBratt · Oct 1, 2019

nolidad said:
Well p[eople are free to believe what they wish- as long as they make sure they let people know it is their opinion and not the Word of God!

Maybe god will accept those who cannot make a righteous decision, maybe not- the Bible does not say!

But one of your big implications is that if someone in the church age has never heard the gospel or heard the name of Jesus- they can be saved some other way! That is anti-biblical!

Rom. 3:10 no one is righteous!
Ephesians 2 all humans by nature are objects of wrath.

If a person who has never heard teh gospel can be saved apart from the gospel, then the church is absolutely foolish to send out missionaries to preach th egospel! Then these people could lose the salvation they had!

But Gods Word says this:

Acts 4:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Romans 10:9-15 King James Version (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

The e Bible makes no exception for people who don't hear or babies or the mentally unsound. How do we know if the severely retarded cannot still accept Christ?

If we believe as Gods Word says that He is omniscient and that He knows those who are HIs; we can trust that no one who wants or will want to be saved- will perish before that opportunity.

I, personally, believe that people that never ever heard the gospel... will be held to their attitude.. not their works.

We know that we can do nothing to save ourselves... However, what of those that don't hear of Christ and therefore, of no fault of their own, cannot believe in something that they have not been made aware.

I believe that this is what is meant about those that still have no excuse. They see the grandeur of the universe and the complexity of nature. They have the knowledge of right and wrong and they will live with the attitude based on this.. they will either, by nature, treat others the way they want to be treated, kind and generous... Not because they are earning anything because they have no knowledge of anything that is to be earned... But just out of an attitude and loving heart...

This is different than those who think that they should be saved because they are good... or deny Christ's work and state that they "should be good enough"...

These are people who have no knowledge of eternal life, salvation and damnation... yet do kindness out of their own... More or less obedient to these things that God wrote on the hearts of men.

But, that's just my opinion.

sdowney717 · Oct 1, 2019

food4thought said:
Except He did. Here:

Matthew 24:36-39 NASB "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. (37) "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. (38) "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, (39) and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Here He compares His coming to the days of Noah. He says it will be life as usual for the people right up to His coming... yet Revelation 6-19 teach us that the days leading up to His second coming will be anything but normal! A pre-trib rapture, on the other hand, could account for this teaching quite remarkably. The rapture (the removal of the indwelling Holy Spirit in the church from the earth) will be the event that provides the opportunity for the Antichrist to come to power (2 Thessalonians 2:3-12).

And here:

Matthew 24:42-44 NASB "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. (43) "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. (44) "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

We will know the day of Christ's return once the Abomination of Desolation takes place (Daniel 12:11). How could the second coming possibly be unanticipated? The rapture, on the other hand, could happen at any time if the pre-trib position is correct (and I think it is).

God bless!
Michael

The ones taken away, are taken away to destruction. Those who remain are caught up to be with Christ.
The flood swept all the wicked.
The wicked shall be ashes under your feet in the Day of the Lord, only the righteous remain alive.

sdowney717 · Oct 1, 2019

Luke 17 the disciples ask Jesus where are they taken.
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 [k]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Eagles are birds of prey, they kill and eat the dead corpses, bodies.
That word body means corpse!
This is also the great supper of God as foretold in Revelation 19
The Beast and His Armies Defeated
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

sdowney717 · Oct 1, 2019

Luke 17, body is corpse, eagles are VULTURES!
Read it for yourself!
Luke 17:1 (NASB)

Genesis 1:1 (NASB)

Genesis 1:1 (NASB)

sdowney717 · Oct 1, 2019

ἀετός aetós, ah-et-os'; from the same as; an eagle (from its wind-like flight):—eagle.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon Revelation 4:7; Revelation 8:13 (Rec. ἀγγέλου); Revelation 12:14.
In Matthew 24:28; Luke 17:37 (as in Job 39:30; Proverbs 30:17) it is better, since eagles are said seldom or never to go in quest of carrion, to understand with many interpreters either the vultur percnopterus, which resembles an eagle (Pliny, h. n. 10, 3 "quarti generis — viz. aquilarum — est percnopterus"), or the vultur barbatus. Cf. Winers RWB under the word Adler; [Tristram, National History of the Bible, p. 172ff]. The meaning of the proverb [cf. examples in Wetstein on Matthew, the passage cited] quoted in both passages is, 'where there are sinners (cf. πτῶμα), there judgments from heaven will not be wanting'.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

The KJV translates Strong's G4430 in the following manner: dead body (3x), carcase (1x), corpse (1x).
Matthew 24:28
28 For wherever the carcass (dead body, corpse) is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

food4thought · Oct 1, 2019

sdowney717 said:
The ones taken away, are taken away to destruction. Those who remain are caught up to be with Christ.
The flood swept all the wicked.
The wicked shall be ashes under your feet in the Day of the Lord, only the righteous remain alive.

Notice I did not quote the passage you are refuting... please read what I actually wrote, then we can have a good discussion.

ewq1938 · Oct 1, 2019

Charles Kanyuga said:
The term that Paul uses is not HARPAZO but ARPAGESOMETHA to seize by force; robbery

No, it's harpazo:

1Th 4:17 ThenG1899 weG2249 which are aliveG2198 and remainG4035 shall be caught upG726 togetherG260 withG4862 themG846 inG1722 the clouds,G3507 to meetG1519 G529 theG3588 LordG2962 inG1519 the air:G109 andG2532 soG3779 shall we everG3842 beG2071 withG4862 the Lord.G2962

G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
Total KJV occurrences: 13

ewq1938 · Oct 1, 2019

food4thought said:
It is true that the dead will rise first, but 1Corinthians 15:52 indicates that these things will be practically simultaneous (in the blink of an eye); and although the dead in Christ are in heaven presently, 1Thessalonians 4:17 indicates that we will be "caught up together with them". They will be embodied with their eternal bodies in the air, not coming down with the Lord in imperishable bodies as it will be for all of us at the second coming.

The dead in Christ are not raptured. The living are raptured up to be together with Christ and the resurrected dead in Christ. This is just after the second coming started, and all follow Christ down in the final acts of the second coming.

Interesting. So date setting is a legitimate pastime for prophecy buffs?

No more than strawman arguments are.

Again, you are making an assumption that Paul is speaking of the second coming instead of the rapture.

He speaks of both. He begins with the second coming, then the resurrection of the dead in Christ which only happens at the second coming, then he speaks of those who are raptured. No matter what, the rapture cannot be moved before the second coming and the second coming only happens when the great trib has ended. There is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture. It is man made.

1) If the rapture is post-trib, we should be looking for the coming of the Antichrist, not the Lord; yet many passages tell us to be looking for the coming of the Lord Jesus.

Paul said to look for the AC because that is a sign that happens before Christ returns:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!

Look at his words:

1. by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

That is the second coming!

2. and by our gathering together unto him

That is the rapture!

3. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Don't be worried that the second coming and the rapture "is at hand" meaning they could happen at any moment instead of after the tribulation as Christ said in the gospels.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is mainly the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God! I believe he will claim to be Jesus Christ leading so many astray.

food4thought · Oct 1, 2019

sdowney717 said:
In Matthew 24:28; Luke 17:37 (as in Job 39:30; Proverbs 30:17) it is better, since eagles are said seldom or never to go in quest of carrion, to understand with many interpreters either the vultur percnopterus, which resembles an eagle

Perhaps you are misinterpreting this passage? You seem to be saying that the NT writer, inspired by the Holy Spirit, could not distinguish between an eagle and a vulture... the word means eagle. It clearly means eagle in the two Revelation passages, and, ironically, these two passages are clearer than the ones in Luke and Matthew. At the very least, we should be cautious of making too much of a passage that translators disagree about... NASB, NIV, NRSV render it vultures, but KJV, NKJV, YLT render it eagles. And the NASB adds a text note that the word literally means "eagles".

ewq1938 · Oct 1, 2019

sdowney717 said:
The ones taken away, are taken away to destruction. Those who remain are caught up to be with Christ.

Except to be caught up is to be taken away which is the raptured ones who obviously are not destroyed. It's the ones not taken anywhere that are destroyed. Didn't you know that the ONE TAKEN in the Greek means to be ACCEPTED like a loved one? And did you not know that ONE LEFT in the Greek means to be REJECTED and DIVORCED and ABANDONED to die? Look the definitions up if you don't believe me.

food4thought · Oct 1, 2019

ewq1938 said:
The dead in Christ are not raptured. The living are raptured up to be together with Christ and the resurrected dead in Christ. This is just after the second coming started, and all follow Christ down in the final acts of the second coming.

Hmmm... doesn't this verse refute what you are saying?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 NASB For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

No more than strawman arguments are.

It was a legitimate question regarding what you thought... I have not been following your posts, and people have been known to be date setters on this forum. I apologize for offending you.

He speaks of both. He begins with the second coming, then the resurrection of the dead in Christ which only happens at the second coming, then he speaks of those who are raptured. No matter what, the rapture cannot be moved before the second coming and the second coming only happens when the great trib has ended. There is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture. It is man made.

I see that you are not going to let that assumption go. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Paul said to look for the AC because that is a sign that happens before Christ returns:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!

Actually, "the day of Christ" refers not to His second coming but to the day of the Lord, which is the great tribulation.

Look at his words:

1. by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

That is the second coming!

2. and by our gathering together unto him

That is the rapture!

Both are probably referring to the rapture. Not sure on this, have to do more prayerful study of this passage.

3. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

NASB renders it "day of the Lord"... G2962 κύριος kurios; from κῦρος kuros (authority); lord, master. If you know your OT, the meaning of this passage is clear.

Don't be worried that the second coming and the rapture "is at hand" meaning they could happen at any moment instead of after the tribulation as Christ said in the gospels.

It is referring to the tribulation starting.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

These things indeed mark the beginning of the "day of the Lord".

There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is mainly the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God! I believe he will claim to be Jesus Christ leading so many astray.

This is true of the second coming, which follows the day of the Lord, but not the rapture, which precedes it.

ewq1938 · Oct 1, 2019

food4thought said:
Hmmm... doesn't this verse refute what you are saying?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 NASB For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

No, that is the resurrection of the dead which happens first before the rapture. The rapture is only for the living, the resurrection only for the dead.

It was a legitimate question regarding what you thought... I have not been following your posts, and people have been known to be date setters on this forum. I apologize for offending you.

It wasn't offensive, it was just a type of strawman to assume or imply what I said was at all related to date setting. All I was saying is Christ did not know when the second coming was going to happen when he was a mortal human...after the cross I believe he very much knew and gave clues to John in Rev as to what signs to look for that would tell the day Christ was to return...that is when the two prophets rise from the dead. We know Christ returns that same day.

Actually, "the day of Christ" refers not to His second coming but to the day of the Lord, which is the great tribulation.

The trib is not the day of the Lord. It is the time God allows Satan to rule the world through his two beasts.

sdowney717 · Oct 1, 2019

ewq1938 said:
Except to be caught up is to be taken away which is the raptured ones who obviously are not destroyed. It's the ones not taken anywhere that are destroyed. Didn't you know that the ONE TAKEN in the Greek means to be ACCEPTED like a loved one? And did you not know that ONE LEFT in the Greek means to be REJECTED and DIVORCED and ABANDONED to die? Look the definitions up if you don't believe me.

Honestly the wicked are gathered by the angels, then taken to destruction and hell while the righteous who remain (left) will be with Christ.
Matthew 13, Parable of the tares explained by Christ shows this about the wicked from v40 onwards.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

sdowney717 · Oct 1, 2019

Malachi 4 directly is confirmed by Matthew 28.
As you can see the wicked dead bodies shall be ashes under your feet on the Day of Christ. (their bodies will be burned up into ashes while their souls will go to hell fire)
So the wicked's souls are gathered (taken away ) by the angels, their fleshly bodies will be burned up to be 'ashes' , they will be consumed by the brightness of the Lord in a fiery second coming, leaving the righteous to inherit the earth.

Malachi 4 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Great Day of God
1 “For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

sdowney717 · Oct 1, 2019

So then the we who are alive and remain, will be caught up to be with Christ, as He returns.
The wicked will all have become ashes, the we who remain and are alive are the christians.
1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

'Alive and Remain', see at this point the wicked are all gone turned in ashes under your feet, only the believers are left alive, this is why scripture calls it a sudden destruction, His second coming.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 New King James Version (NKJV)
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

ewq1938 · Oct 1, 2019

sdowney717 said:
Honestly the wicked are gathered by the angels, then taken to destruction and hell while the righteous who remain (left) will be with Christ.

That's on judgment day not at the second coming when one is raptured/taken and one is abandoned/left (to God's wrath).

sdowney717 · Oct 1, 2019

ewq1938 said:
That's on judgment day not at the second coming when one is raptured/taken and one is abandoned/left (to God's wrath).

When Christ comes, all the wicked will be burnt up in a sudden destruction!
2 Thessalonians 2 shows this occurs at His second coming.

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

The final judgement, that Great White Throne judgement by God on the wicked dead, those dead are brought up out of hell, and they then go to the lake of fire. 2 Thess 2 is not the lake of fire, these wicked go to hell first, but physically they have become ashes under the feet of the righteous who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord..

ewq1938 · Oct 1, 2019

sdowney717 said:
When Christ comes, all the wicked will be burnt up in a sudden destruction!

No, that doesn't happen when Christ comes. He comes to rule over the nations. He only destroys the army of the beast and he doesn't use fire to do that.

food4thought · Oct 1, 2019

ewq1938 said:
No, that is the resurrection of the dead which happens first before the rapture. The rapture is only for the living, the resurrection only for the dead.

I see... interesting.

It wasn't offensive, it was just a type of strawman to assume or imply what I said was at all related to date setting.

Again, I apologize.

All I was saying is Christ did not know when the second coming was going to happen when he was a mortal human...

Agreed.

after the cross I believe he very much knew and gave clues to John in Rev as to what signs to look for that would tell the day Christ was to return...that is when the two prophets rise from the dead. We know Christ returns that same day.

How do we know that?

The trib is not the day of the Lord. It is the time God allows Satan to rule the world through his two beasts.

look up these passages in the OT about "the day of the Lord":

Isaiah 13; Ezekiel 30; Joel 1 and Joel 2; Amos 5:18-20... these passages indicate that God often uses a godless person, like the Antichrist, to do His judgment for Him. The great tribulation is the day of the Lord, in which there will be darkness and not light, and He will punish the people of the earth with the Antichrist as well as His own judgments!

Children in the Rapture?

Searching for Truth

Searching for Truth

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Loving truth

I love you three.

I love you three.

Loving truth

I love you three.

Loving truth

I love you three.

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

I love you three.

Newbie

I love you three.

Loving truth

Similar threads