Salvation Cannot be Lost

FreeGrace2 · Oct 1, 2019

JLB777 said:
Ah, I see the problem.

You have reading comprehension issues.

Which applies to you BIG TIME.

I have learned to live according to the Spirit, whereby I invest my time towards the Spirit, rather than the flesh.

How can you claim to live according to the Spirit WHEN you don't believe what Jesus says about those He gives eternal life??? Please stop claiming what cannot be true.

But that really doesn’t matter does it.

If what you claim doesn't line up and agree with Scripture, yes, it does matter.

It doesn’t matter what you or I do or don’t do, because what we do doesn’t change the truth.

The truth is supposed to change US, but when presented with the truth, I haven't seen any change in YOU. In fact, you just double down in your man made doctrine.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

The exact same is true for he who says "I believe Him" but does not believe His words, such as John 5:24 and 10:28.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 1, 2019

I said:
"Check the context. It's about the 7 year Tribulation."

renniks said:
21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Depends on your eschatology beliefs.

No, it depends on what Scripture says. And the context for the verse about "enduring to the end" is specifically referring to the Tribulation.

I care not what other eschatological beliefs others have. Mine is biblical. Literally.

It's very likely about the persecution that took place in the early church.

That's just spin.

Regardless, it doesn't change the application here. He who stand firm to the end will be saved.

The end of the Tribulation.

This can't mean saved physically, as there was certainly no guarantee of that, many were thrown to the lions, burned, sawn in half, and so on. Standing firm to the end is standing in the faith in spite of intense persecution.

It sure does refer to being saved physically.

In Matt 24, this is what Jesus' disciples asked Jesus:
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” This is clearly referring to the Tribulation.

Jesus responded:
6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

So, no matter how hard you try, the context IS about the Tribulation.

Then consider these verses, in the SAME CONTEXT:
21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Mark 13 is the same subject.
4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”
7When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14“When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’standing where itoes not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. Clearly the Tribulation.

20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 1, 2019

renniks said:
So according to your doctrine, a Christian who becomes an atheist or Satanist and opposes the gospel, still gets a free ride to Glory?

Do you understand anything about grace? Seems not so much.

The "free ride" to Glory is based solely on the work of Christ. Those who believe in Him are given eternal life and shall never perish.

And this receiving of eternal life occurs WHEN a person believes.

Your problem begins with a failure to grasp grace.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 1, 2019

I said:
"But you don't believe His promises and guarantees, from all you've posted."

renniks said:
Those promises and guarantees are for believers.

Let's examine what Scripture ACTUALLY says in Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

So, what kind of tense do you think "when you believed" means?

If the view of having to continually believe were true, then Paul could NOT have written it the way he did.

The words "when you believed" could just as well be stated as "BACK WHEN you believed". Means the same thing.

So the claim that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved is a false, man made doctrine, totally unbiblical.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 1, 2019

I said:
"There is nothing here about salvation. It's about being a disciple, a student of Jesus.

Have you never noticed that in any given classroom, not all the students are paying attention. Just as in this thread, the Arminian students aren't paying any attention to the teaching of Jesus on eternal security."

renniks said:
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

He's telling the Jews they must hold to his teachings to be in the truth.

True. And by implication, He is saying that believers who do not hold to His teachings are NOT in the truth.

There is no time limit here. And because the ones he spoke to refused to hold to his teaching, he told them there were not of God.

More misunderstanding or simply misreading of the context. If you begin in v.13 we find "the Pharisees challenged Jesus". So, every mention of "they" after v.13 is a direct reference to the Pharisees, who didn't believe in Him.

See v.19 (they), v.21 (them), v.22 (the Jews) v,25 (they), v.27 (they).

v.32 - 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Jesus said this to "those who believed" what He was saying.

Now, v.33 - They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

So, we're back to the Pharisees. They answered but weren't being addressed. Jesus addressed those who had believed in Him, so the Pharisees were actually butting in.

So, everything that follows now is Jesus back to addressing the unbelieving Pharisees.

This is what Jesus concludes with, in v.45 - 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

So, either John was LYING in v.30,31, or Jesus was LYING in v.45, if they all were the same people.

What's interesting here, is that they had believed him, and then they double down and refuse to continue in the truth.

In the larger crowd that contained Pharisees, there were "many who believed in Him". So He addressed "the Jews who had believed Him" in v.32.

But since the unbelieving Pharisees interrupted and answered in v.33, Jesus continues to address them to the end of the chapter.

It is sad how many people completely misread ch 8.

renniks · Oct 1, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Mark 13 is the same subject.
4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”
7When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14“When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’standing where itoes not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. Clearly the Tribulation.

20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

Not clear at all...In 168 BC, the Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes invaded Jerusalem and captured the city. He marched into the Jewish temple, erected a statue of the Greek god Zeus, and sacrificed a pig on the altar of incense. This provoked a revolt in Judea as the Jews fought to remove Antiochus’ sacrilege from the temple. Under the leadership of the Maccabees, the Jews drove Antiochus and his army out, and the Jews gained control of their land for about one hundred years until Pompey, an acclaimed Roman general, captured the Holy Land and brought it under Roman rule.

It seems incontrovertible that Titus’ actions were the specific fulfillment of Jesus’ warning in Mark 13:14 about the “abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be.” After all, the parallel verse in Matthew 24:15 says that the abomination would stand in “the holy place,” a clear reference to the temple. Christ told the disciples that when they saw the abomination, they were to flee the city. They were not to return from the field for their possessions if they were out working the crops. If they were on the roof of their home, they were not to enter the home before fleeing; rather, they were to scurry down the outdoor staircases (most houses in Judea had flat roofs that people accessed via an outdoor staircase) and flee. The flight would be so perilous that winter travel would be dificult and pregnant women would find it hard to keep up (Mark 13:14–20).

Josephus, the Jewish historian who gives us the clearest first hand account of Jerusalem’s fall, reports that the Jewish Christians in Judea heeded Jesus’ warning. When the city and temple fell, more than one million Jews died. But Jewish Christians, by and large, were not among them, for they had already fled the city when they saw the Romans coming.

renniks · Oct 1, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you understand anything about grace? Seems not so much.

The "free ride" to Glory is based solely on the work of Christ. Those who believe in Him are given eternal life and shall never perish.

And this receiving of eternal life occurs WHEN a person believes.

Your problem begins with a failure to grasp grace.

Just trying to grasp how your doctrine could be so screwed up that you think anti Christs were saved.

2 Corinthians 6:14 ESV
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

Unbelievers are never called righteous in scripture.

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Revelation 21:8 ESV
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

renniks · Oct 1, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
The words "when you believed" could just as well be stated as "BACK WHEN you believed". Means the same thing.

The height of absurdity.

Hebrews 3:12 ESV /
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 1, 2019

renniks said:
Just trying to grasp how your doctrine could be so screwed up that you think anti Christs were saved.

2 Corinthians 6:14 ESV
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

Unbelievers are never called righteous in scripture.

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Revelation 21:8 ESV
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

renniks said:
The height of absurdity.

Hebrews 3:12 ESV /
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Amen!

The false gospel is perhaps the biggest obstacle, the greatest enemy, of the truth.

It is as if it "immunizes" people who believe the false gospel, against the true gospel of Jesus....

Phil W · Oct 1, 2019

Daniel C said:
Can't is a more fitting description because a saved person cannot lose their salvation,therefore they can't take the mark of the beast.

Doesn't the "can't" apply to lying, adultery, and stealing too?
It should.

If you are trying to imply you never sin, I say you're a liar.
1 John 1:8
''If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.''
The ''we'' part is Christians, so people who claim they have no sin are liars.

Don't you realize that John is talking about two very different kinds of men and their walks?
Some of the verses in 1 John 1 are intended for those who walk in the light-God, and the others apply to those who walk in darkness-sin.
Those walking in darkness-sin are the ones that cannot say "I have no sin".
If your interpretation of verse 8 was correct, then verses 7 and 9 are lies...they both say all our unrighteousness-sin CAN be washed away.

I think your interpretation of 1 John is incorrect.
''4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.''
So people who break Gods law sin, and at that moment cannot claim to be acting as a child of God whether they are born again again or not. It doesn't say anything about salvation loss though,does it?

In that moment?
How about never were reborn of the seed of God?
Your verse 4 above describes what sin is.
Your verse 9 above says those of God's seed CANNOT do them.
Sin denotes one who never was in Christ.
Had he been in Christ the seed within him would have prevented sin.
That which is born of a grape vine cannot bring forth figs.
He who is born of God cannot bring forth wickedness.

And works salvation is the belief system when a person believes it's compulsory to carry out deeds in order to be saved or continue to be saved.

Isn't it "compulsory" that fig trees only bring forth figs?
Actually, a better word that compulsory would be "normal".

Phil W · Oct 1, 2019

renniks said:
More proof that one must continue in faith to receive the promises.

Rev 2:10 agrees with you.
"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

Phil W · Oct 1, 2019

ICONO'CLAST said:
My statement did not reference the Apostle Paul.
I spoke of present day dead religions with a works based system. There are several.

OK, thanks for the clarification.
When I hear of "works" I think of Paul's defense against circumcision and such things of the Mosaic Law.
Not about the things the faithful do naturally because of their new nature.
Things like remaining obedient to God and His Son Jesus Christ.

Phil W · Oct 1, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Couldn't be more wrong. The OP is clearly about the fact that those who have believed cannot lose salvation.

If you want to discuss what constitutes belief, then start a thread.

And I profess that those who believe in Him will never disobey Him.

Daniel C · Oct 1, 2019

Phil W said:
Doesn't the "can't" apply to lying, adultery, and stealing too?
It should.

Don't you realize that John is talking about two very different kinds of men and their walks?
Some of the verses in 1 John 1 are intended for those who walk in the light-God, and the others apply to those who walk in darkness-sin.
Those walking in darkness-sin are the ones that cannot say "I have no sin".
If your interpretation of verse 8 was correct, then verses 7 and 9 are lies...they both say all our unrighteousness-sin CAN be washed away.

In that moment?
How about never were reborn of the seed of God?
Your verse 4 above describes what sin is.
Your verse 9 above says those of God's seed CANNOT do them.
Sin denotes one who never was in Christ.
Had he been in Christ the seed within him would have prevented sin.
That which is born of a grape vine cannot bring forth figs.
He who is born of God cannot bring forth wickedness.

Isn't it "compulsory" that fig trees only bring forth figs?
Actually, a better word that compulsory would be "normal".

Yeah I'm going to agree with the Apostle John.

If you claim to never sin, I say you're a liar.

Phil W · Oct 1, 2019

Daniel C said:
Yeah I'm going to agree with the Apostle John.
If you claim to never sin, I say you're a liar.

I agree with him too.
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7)
It is incumbent on us to remain in the light...which is God.
Did you notice the word "But"?
Doesn't that suggest an alternative to walking in darkness-sin?
That alternative is walking in the light-God.

Daniel C · Oct 1, 2019

Phil W said:
I agree with him too.
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7)
It is incumbent on us to remain in the light...which is God.
Did you notice the word "But"?
Doesn't that suggest an alternative to walking in darkness-sin?
That alternative is walking in the light-God.

Let's be clear, is that what you are claiming, to never sin?

You never sin?
You never sin by breaking any of Gods laws?

Just give me a yes or no. Thanks.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 1, 2019

renniks said:
Not clear at all...In 168 BC, the Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes invaded Jerusalem and captured the city. He marched into the Jewish temple, erected a statue of the Greek god Zeus, and sacrificed a pig on the altar of incense. This provoked a revolt in Judea as the Jews fought to remove Antiochus’ sacrilege from the temple. Under the leadership of the Maccabees, the Jews drove Antiochus and his army out, and the Jews gained control of their land for about one hundred years until Pompey, an acclaimed Roman general, captured the Holy Land and brought it under Roman rule.

What does this have to do with the passages noted?? They are clearly about the Tribulation.

It seems incontrovertible that Titus’ actions were the specific fulfillment of Jesus’ warning in Mark 13:14 about the “abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be.” After all, the parallel verse in Matthew 24:15 says that the abomination would stand in “the holy place,” a clear reference to the temple.

OK, maybe you should read Revelation then. That's exactly what the anti-Christ does at the midpoint of the Tribulation.

Christ told the disciples that when they saw the abomination, they were to flee the city. They were not to return from the field for their possessions if they were out working the crops. If they were on the roof of their home, they were not to enter the home before fleeing; rather, they were to scurry down the outdoor staircases (most houses in Judea had flat roofs that people accessed via an outdoor staircase) and flee. The flight would be so perilous that winter travel would be dificult and pregnant women would find it hard to keep up (Mark 13:14–20).

All describing the coming "end of the age" Tribulation.

You've got to deal honestly with v.19 - 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

Don't even think that what Antiochus did was as bad as what will occur during the Tribulation.

And these verses:
21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it.
22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

You want to argue that there were a bunch of false Messiah's running around when Antiochus leveled Jerusalem?

Josephus, the Jewish historian who gives us the clearest first hand account of Jerusalem’s fall, reports that the Jewish Christians in Judea heeded Jesus’ warning. When the city and temple fell, more than one million Jews died. But Jewish Christians, by and large, were not among them, for they had already fled the city when they saw the Romans coming.

Do you not believe that there will be a literal 7 year period when God rains His wrath on the earth?

FreeGrace2 · Oct 1, 2019

renniks said:
Just trying to grasp how your doctrine could be so screwed up that you think anti Christs were saved.

Where did I ever say such a stupid thing? I never did.

2 Corinthians 6:14 ESV
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

The Bible never refers to believers who apostatize as "unbelievers".

And John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 are clear enough for objective readers. It is those who have not believed (never believed) who will be condemned.

But you just don't like that idea. You have no grasp of grace.

Unbelievers are never called righteous in scripture.

Nor should they be.

Revelation 21:8 ESV
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Did you think about the first 2 on this list? Probably not.

The word "cowardly" doesn't refer to someone who is simply timid. No, a coward LACKS FAITH. And the second word is "faithless".

So, v.8 is a description of those who never believed, and where they will end up.

JLB777 · Oct 1, 2019

Daniel C said:
Calm down buddy that's what the thread is about,read the title.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.''

Do you keep the ''commandments'' all the time?

Calm down buddy, that’s what the thread title is about.

Yes I keep His commandments.

If I do sin, then I confess my sin and forgiven.

I have learned to live according to the Spirit, whereby I invest my time towards the Spirit, rather than the flesh.

But that really doesn’t matter does it.

It doesn’t matter what you or I do or don’t do, because what we do doesn’t change the truth.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

This is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

JLB

renniks · Oct 1, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
You've got to deal honestly with v.19 - 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

You also have to deal honestly with this verse:
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

And Jesus also prophesied the destruction of the temple in 90 AD in the same chapter. Doesn't it seem a little unlikely that he would go on to warn them about something that wasn't going to happen for 2000 plus years? But, the persecution of the early church started in the same generation.

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