Who gets cast into the everlasting lake of fire?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2019

Daniel C said:
Jesus is speaking metaphorically not literally.

I don't view Jesus as a farmer.

While Jesus may not literally be a farmer, in one way Jesus is like a farmer in the sense that He sows the seed of the communicated Word of God (by His words in Scripture) into the hearts of those who receive those words and obey them.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2019

The Parable of the Sower teaches us that some seeds received the gospel message with joy, but in time of trial, they fell away. They endured only for a while. One seed fell away due to the care of this life and riches. The other seed fell away due to not wanting to be persecuted. This is why Jesus says, "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matthew 24:13). For it is a sin to chase after riches and to avoid our duty in persecution. Hence, why James 1:12 says, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

Promised to those that love Him.
The crown of life is promised to those that love Him (The Lord our GOD).
For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2019

devin553344 said:
OK so in post #2 & 3 it spells out that which offends and that which is iniquity. All do iniquity in relation to what's described in posts #2 & 3. So all go to the lake of fire?

All who offend and do iniquity in His Kingdom are cast into the Lake of Fire.
1 John 3:7 says that he that does righteousness is righteous.
We learn in Matthew 25:21 that the servant who was faithful over little was told to enter into the joy of their Lord and to be rewarded. In Matthew 25:30, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Jesus says in Matthew 7 that we will know a tree by its fruit. Fruits are deeds.
Jesus says a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Jesus then talks about how some believers who do good works and who work iniquity (sin) are told to depart from Him (See Matthew 7:23). John 3:10 says,

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

In other words, the Bible says it is so many different ways it is ridiculous to not get that we also have to live righteously as a part of eternal life. Jude 1:4 talks about those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality. On, and on the Word of God speaks such things.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2019

Blade said:
You know.. theres nothing wrong with talking about this. But for me "everlasting lake of fire".I have kids and to many of us are walking up to some "Father" picking up His kids His creation and tossing them in the fire..looking back telling this Father how much we love really love Him.

See this is what gets me. This world that knows Him not are unrighteous. Are against Him. Yet for God so loved the world <--do we see them like this 1st? They are HIS not mine. HIS creation. He made every one of them. He will never ever ever see them again. He made them. Even David.. said let not the wicked be written in your book with the righteous. To never see what you made again. Hard to for me to...

In 58 years.. He show'd me one time ..a very tiny of how He sees people. I had prayed to see people through His eyes all my life. 15 years later He show'd me. What I see.. felt was .. As I looked at people.. this was in LA Calf .. all the people... never saw believer or lost.. but He was crying so very very hard. For not one knew how much He loved them. And in that moment I knew I was only given the tiniest sliver of a glance of how a GOD sees His creation. I truly believe now.. no one knows how much this GOD loves us.

So to talk about a day in which I have no say what so ever other then "did you share ME?" "WHY did you say nothing about me" <--this is what I am working on. I don't get to write in look in HIS books. And I should be the one being toss out. ...again.. nothing wrong with talking about this.

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
(2 Peter 3:9).

Repentance is made true if people have truly forsaken their sin.
God loves us, but He will not tolerate sin and or evil in His Kingdom.
It does not matter if one is a believer or not.
All who do evil hate the light (John 3:20).
All who do evil will be destroyed or erased from existence in the Lake of Fire.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2019

FutureAndAHope said:
All you have done is introduce a new law. Why did Christ have to come at all? Would he not have just told Moses the so called new law of commandments, and introduced that in the beginning. Christ did not replace the law. The bible says "I did not come to destroy the law, until heaven and earth pass away not one dot or tiddle will be removed from the law". We are still under the law. But Christ has taken the penalty for us failing to meet its requirements. You are close to what salvation is but you have missed the point. As Christians God's Holy Spirit motivates us to keep the law of commandments, as the bible says "the one who is born of God keeps himself from sin". But we are not saved by being sinless. As the bible says "If righteousness came by the law, Christ died in vain". Did you not know "we have been called to liberty, only don't use that as an excuse to sin". What is that "liberty" we have been called to? It is me being viewed as sinless in God's eyes, justified not by my works, not by the law, but by Christ alone. Yet do I sin, no, the Holy Spirit motivates me not to. But am I perfect? No. I need the cross.

But Paul is not arguing against keeping all forms of God's Laws in general as a part of being right with God. Paul is arguing against trying to be saved by the 613 laws within the Law of Moses given to Israel as a means of salvation alone (Without God's grace). Paul is not speaking against the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. Paul said if any does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4). God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (See James 4:6).

In fact, to prove that Paul was referring to the Old Law (given to us by Moses) and not the New Law (given to us by Jesus and His followers), we read in Galatians 5:2 where Paul says that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Then in Galatians 5:4, Paul says if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace. Now, is circumcision that is a part of Old Testament Law or New Testament Law? Obviously it would be a part of the Old Law (Which means Paul is arguing against those who are trying to be justified by the Law of Moses and not the Moral Law or New Covenant Law).

Hence why Romans 7:6 says,
"...we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

The oldness of the letter is the Torah or the Law of Moses.

Serving in newness of spirit would be following the words of Jesus and His followers.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2019

FutureAndAHope said:
All you have done is introduce a new law. Why did Christ have to come at all? Would he not have just told Moses the so called new law of commandments, and introduced that in the beginning. Christ did not replace the law. The bible says "I did not come to destroy the law, until heaven and earth pass away not one dot or tiddle will be removed from the law". We are still under the law. But Christ has taken the penalty for us failing to meet its requirements. You are close to what salvation is but you have missed the point. As Christians God's Holy Spirit motivates us to keep the law of commandments, as the bible says "the one who is born of God keeps himself from sin". But we are not saved by being sinless. As the bible says "If righteousness came by the law, Christ died in vain". Did you not know "we have been called to liberty, only don't use that as an excuse to sin". What is that "liberty" we have been called to? It is me being viewed as sinless in God's eyes, justified not by my works, not by the law, but by Christ alone. Yet do I sin, no, the Holy Spirit motivates me not to. But am I perfect? No. I need the cross.

Why was Paul arguing negatively at times against the Law and or works?
Paul was arguing against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" which stated that you had to be circumcised first in order to be saved. This also included following the Law of Moses. This heresy was addressed at the Jerusalem council:

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

The commands of Jesus and His followers is NOT the same as the Law of Moses. They are a different set of Laws or commands. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This makes sense because we are under a New Covenant (or New Testament). A New Covenant suggests we are under New Commands. But there were certain unbelieving Jews who wanted Christians to go back to the Old Covenant Law to be saved and they did not want them to first trust in Jesus as their Savior. They wanted them to trust in circumcision as the foundation of their faith and not Christ. Therein lies the difference here. Paul was not speaking against the necessity of living holy and or bringing forth good works as a part of being in God's Kingdom. Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. James 2:17 says faith without works is dead. Paul says that we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

FineLinen · Oct 1, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
Of course. His purpose is to be all in all. His Salvation is the a to z. He will have everyone come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth. What, you think it's a club?

Whomsoever enters the Lake of Fire rebellious emerges repentant Rev 20:9,15, 21:24-26, 22:2.

Does a microwave say to its manufacturer - 'I will not be recalled'? Or a car say to its mechanic 'I will not be repaired'? Is any malady too tough for the Great Physician? No, He even cures us from death and despair!

Dear Shrewd: It is a constant amazement the view our gracious and loving Father is among many in our ranks. We become like we think. The Great Physician heals broken beings of Adam. He does not patch them up, He transforms them from the inside out. He is the God of metamorphoo changing crawling creatures into spectacles of grandeur!

A-man%E2%80%99s-real-belief-is-that-which-he-lives-by.-300x300.jpg

FineLinen · Oct 1, 2019

FutureAndAHope · Oct 1, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Why was Paul arguing negatively at times against the Law and or works?
Paul was arguing against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" which stated that you had to be circumcised first in order to be saved. This also included following the Law of Moses. This heresy was addressed at the Jerusalem council:

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

The commands of Jesus and His followers is NOT the same as the Law of Moses. They are a different set of Laws or commands. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This makes sense because we are under a New Covenant (or New Testament). A New Covenant suggests we are under New Commands. But there were certain unbelieving Jews who wanted Christians to go back to the Old Covenant Law to be saved and they did not want them to first trust in Jesus as their Savior. They wanted them to trust in circumcision as the foundation of their faith and not Christ. Therein lies the difference here. Paul was not speaking against the necessity of living holy and or bringing forth good works as a part of being in God's Kingdom. Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. James 2:17 says faith without works is dead. Paul says that we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

I do not disagree with you that we should keep Jesus commands, and I would go a step farther and say that we should also keep the law, at least the spirit of the law. For when the apostles said "all scripture is profitable for doctrine and reproof", the only scripture they had was the Law of Moses, and the wisdom and prophecy books of the Old Testament. Where I am fervently against you is in the fact that you seem to be denying the grace of God. The bible makes it clear in many places we are saved not by obeying the law, be it new or old, but rather by trusting in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. That is the work that we are called to primarily, to "believe in the one God sent [Jesus]".

Just pause for a moment. Lets consider the scripture again., I believe it is loaded with truth.

"You have been called to liberty, only don't use that liberty as an excuse for the flesh, but in love serve one another"

Paul makes it clear:

1) We are called by God to live in liberty from the yoke of bondage to the law of commandments. Let me make it clear the only scripture the apostles had was the law, it was their scripture. Jesus did not introduce new scripture, he referred to the law. All of the things he introduced we less stringent, not more so. As an example pardoning the woman caught in adultery. Allowing his disciples to glean grain on the sabbath, etc. The only new command that Jesus gave was "love one another as I have loved you".

2) So we are free from the yoke of bondage to the law of commandments, now you start screaming, no we are not, we must keep them all perfectly to be saved. But that is not what the bible teaches. It teaches salvation 100% by this liberty. Yet now look at the amendment to grace. "don't use the fact that you are free (sinless apart from the law) as an excuse to sin". The bible goes on to say, "should we continue to sin so that grace can abound?", the answer "by no means", yet Paul "does not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness is by the law Christ died in vain".

Although I am sure you will be in heaven by trying to live God's way, there are certain things God will never entrust you with, for you can not teach His word effectively to others until you acknowledge His grace.

I now that you are just trying to get people to live God's way, the way of his commandments. But you have the cart before the horse, the mercy of God's grace draws us to salvation, and his communion draws us toward sinlessness. But we will never be sinless. We still need daily strength from God to be empowered to perform His call.

Sure there are people in the church who as the bible says "turns the grace of God into lasciviousness", and you are right to condemn them for their willful sins. But return to grace, for you are not preaching the truth.

Shrewd Manager · Oct 1, 2019

FineLinen said:
Dear Shrewd: It is a constant amazement the view our gracious and loving Father is among many in our ranks. We become like we think. The Great Physician heals broken beings of Adam. He does not patch them up, He transforms them from the inside out. He is the God of metamorphoo changing crawling creatures into spectacles of grandeur!

All praises to God for His patience with us as we learn to walk upright in both the mountains and in valleys.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2019

FutureAndAHope said:
I do not disagree with you that we should keep Jesus commands, and I would go a step farther and say that we should also keep the law, at least the spirit of the law. For when the apostles said "all scripture is profitable for doctrine and reproof", the only scripture they had was the Law of Moses, and the wisdom and prophecy books of the Old Testament. Where I am fervently against you is in the fact that you seem to be denying the grace of God. The bible makes it clear in many places we are saved not by obeying the law, be it new or old, but rather by trusting in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. That is the work that we are called to primarily, to "believe in the one God sent [Jesus]".

Just pause for a moment. Lets consider the scripture again., I believe it is loaded with truth.

"You have been called to liberty, only don't use that liberty as an excuse for the flesh, but in love serve one another"

Paul makes it clear:

1) We are called by God to live in liberty from the yoke of bondage to the law of commandments. Let me make it clear the only scripture the apostles had was the law, it was their scripture. Jesus did not introduce new scripture, he referred to the law. All of the things he introduced we less stringent, not more so. As an example pardoning the woman caught in adultery. Allowing his disciples to glean grain on the sabbath, etc. The only new command that Jesus gave was "love one another as I have loved you".

2) So we are free from the yoke of bondage to the law of commandments, now you start screaming, no we are not, we must keep them all perfectly to be saved. But that is not what the bible teaches. It teaches salvation 100% by this liberty. Yet now look at the amendment to grace. "don't use the fact that you are free (sinless apart from the law) as an excuse to sin". The bible goes on to say, "should we continue to sin so that grace can abound?", the answer "by no means", yet Paul "does not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness is by the law Christ died in vain".

Although I am sure you will be in heaven by trying to live God's way, there are certain things God will never entrust you with, for you can not teach His word effectively to others until you acknowledge His grace.

I now that you are just trying to get people to live God's way, the way of his commandments. But you have the cart before the horse, the mercy of God's grace draws us to salvation, and his communion draws us toward sinlessness. But we will never be sinless. We still need daily strength from God to be empowered to perform His call.

Sure there are people in the church who as the bible says "turns the grace of God into lasciviousness", and you are right to condemn them for their willful sins. But return to grace, for you are not preaching the truth.

Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5). But make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too. Simply click on the following spoiler button to check out the verses.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

There are five things (as a whole) in the Bible that people are not getting when they read Paul, and thus they easily misunderstand him in justifying a false "sin and still be saved" or "Belief Alone" type gospel (Which is no doubt appealing because it means that a person does not have to change their life all that much and they can live for themselves instead of the Lord). But Jesus says, "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? (Luke 6:46) (NHEB).

Here are the 5 things (as a whole) in Scripture that your average Christian does not understand when they read Paul:

#1. The Bible teaches that there is a change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12); So when Paul talks about the "Law" (generically), he is referring to the Torah, i.e. the Old Law (or the many laws given to Moses and Israel) and not the commandments given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers (i.e. the New Law or New Testament Law). See post #152 below to learn more.

#2. Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. See post #153 below to learn more.

#3. An Understanding on the Pharisee's false beliefs according to the Bible:

A. Christian Belief Alone Proponents (or those who think they can abide in some kind of sin on some level and still be saved) do not understand that the Pharisees sometimes ignored God's grace like in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14) and this was not at the expense of upholding basic morality. For in this parable, the problem of the Pharisee is that he was not crying out to God for forgiveness of his sins like the tax collector was doing. So the Pharisee needed to get his heart right with God first. In short, the Pharisee was making salvation all about works with no emphasis on God's grace as the entrance gate and foundation of his faith. Hence, why Paul fought against "Works Alone Salvationism" without God's grace. But what they fail to realize is that Jesus was not endorsing the tax collector to continue in his sin the rest of his life by merely paying lip service because Jesus also told two people to "sin no more" (See John 5:14, and John 8:11).

B. Some (not all) Christian Belief Alone Proponents (or those who believe they can abide in sin on some level and still be saved) think that the Pharisees kept the letter of the Law or they kept the Law perfectly and this was their problem. They say that the Pharisees kept the letter of the Law but not the spirit of the Law. However, these kinds of statements are not true. For Jesus said that the problem of the Pharisees was that they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (See Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42). So Jesus had a problem with the Pharisees not keeping the Law; And Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud, and gives grace to the humble.

#4. The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

#5. The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2019

The Old Law is No More - The Law has changed:

God's moral laws came into existence for man and would forever exist for him after the Fall of Adam and Eve (after they received the knowledge of good and evil). A Moral Law is any law telling you to do good without a specific law telling you that such a thing is so (See Romans 2:14). These moral laws existed before the Law of Moses.

In the New Covenant (or New Testament) these Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are repeated from the 613 laws within the Law of Moses and they still in effect (i.e. They have been carried over into the New Testament). However, the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more (contractually speaking). Ceremonial commands: Things like the commands on circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Saturday Sabbath, etc. are no longer binding under the New Covenant. This is because the written Law given to Israel is no longer in effect (as a whole). How so?

Here are a list of verses (showing us the Old Law is no more):

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
(Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2019

Paul was fighting against Circumcision Salvationism:

This heresy was addressed at the Jerusalem council:

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

Here are the verses by Paul showing that he was fighting against Circumcision Salvation:

Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

In other words, if a person says that they FIRST have to be circumcised to be saved, they are saying God's grace, i.e. Jesus Christ by faith is no longer effective or required. They are not making Jesus the foundation of their faith, but they are making circumcision the foundation of their faith. This is why Paul spoke in the way that he did against the Law and said we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of works (i.e. Works Alone). This does not mean Paul was against the necessity of works of faith after a person was saved by God's grace (See Ephesians 2:10, Romans 8:13, Titus 1:16, 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2019

FutureAndAHope said:
...we should also keep the law, at least the spirit of the law.

2 Corinthians 3:6 says,

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

I believe you are misinterpreting this verse. Here is a quote from a Christian article on how your interpretation does not work for this verse:

The denominational idea is this: “We need not be overly concerned with keeping every single thing God says, it is more important that we keep the ‘spirit’ of the law.”

Does "letter" refer to the actual wording of Scripture and "spirit" to an unwritten message behind the words, as some teach?

No! If it did, then there could be no objective truth.

Before we discuss what the Bible actually says according to this passage, let us look at a couple of logical problems with this idea.

One problem with claiming this idea concerning the “spirit vs. letter of the law” is this: it leads to the practice of anything, and everything. And in short it says, ‘as long as you FEEL it is right, then it is right.” Again, truth would be subjective.

"Scripture is clear, man does not determine what God’s truth is. Man is not the authority on God’s law. (Jeremiah 10:23; Isaiah 55:9 etc…) Jesus said my words will judge you, not “you will be judged by your ‘feelings’ about my words.” (See: John 12:48).

The Meaning of the Text

In order to understand many of Paul’s writings we need to see what is going on in his world. He was facing objections from the Jews in practically every place that he went.

The Jews wanted to force the Law of Moses upon the Gentiles. Over and over in Paul’s messages, Paul explained that the Old Law (the Law of Moses) could not save. (Romans 7:1-7; Ephesians 2:11-20; Colossians 2:12-17).

The Hebrews writer says the same in Hebrews chapters 6-10.

The "letter" (from Greek. grammar, "that which is written") alludes to the body of law given at Mt. Sinai when the Ten Commandments were passed from God into the hands of the Old Testament lawgiver, Moses. The "letter," or old law, is said to kill because it pronounces Divine condemnation on men for their sins without providing a means of true justification in its animal sacrifices (Galatians 3:10ff; Acts of the Apostles 13:39; Hebrews 10:4).

While it is true that faithful Jews living under Moses' law were saved, the end and final action of their salvation was in the redemptive death of Jesus who fulfilled the sacrificial types of the old law (Hebrews 9:15-17; Matthew 5:17).

Paul is showing a contrast in where the Old Law ended and where the New Law was to lead. While one led to death, the other lead to life.

The contrast of what Paul is preaching can be easily seen in the following chart.

Article Source:
Spirit of the Law vs. Letter of the Law

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2019

FutureAndAHope said:
I do not disagree with you that we should keep Jesus commands,

Why keep that which is not essential to salvation?
For if people knew that going over the speed limit by 10 miles per hour could give them prison time and 10,000 dollar fine, more people on the road would obey the speed limit laws. But if your state passed a Law where there was no more penalty for going over the speed limit on the highways, more people would disobey it and or they would not take such a law as seriously anymore.

Besides, I am not convinced that your average Belief Alone Proponent or the Eternal Security believer is for keeping the commandments of Jesus. When push comes to shove, they will say how they break God's commands and or how we all break them and that is why we need a Savior (in the fact that we just believe alone on Him for salvation).

You said:
...the only scripture they had was the Law of Moses, and the wisdom and prophecy books of the Old Testament. 1) We are called by God to live in liberty from the yoke of bondage to the law of commandments. Let me make it clear the only scripture the apostles had was the law, it was their scripture. Jesus did not introduce new scripture, he referred to the law. All of the things he introduced we less stringent, not more so. As an example pardoning the woman caught in adultery. Allowing his disciples to glean grain on the sabbath, etc. The only new command that Jesus gave was "love one another as I have loved you".

No. Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

How so?

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).

The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).

The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.

The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).

Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).

You said:
Where I am fervently against you is in the fact that you seem to be denying the grace of God. The bible makes it clear in many places we are saved not by obeying the law, be it new or old, but rather by trusting in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. That is the work that we are called to primarily, to "believe in the one God sent [Jesus]".

I am not in denial of God's grace. I believe salvation is in both God's grace through faith, and in Sanctification (as Scripture plainly teaches).

As for believing in the finished work of Jesus on the cross:

Actually, that is nowhere taught in the Bible. On the contrary, the true imputation of Christ's sacrifice is found in 1 John 1:7. It essentially says if we walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

You said:
Just pause for a moment. Lets consider the scripture again., I believe it is loaded with truth.

"You have been called to liberty, only don't use that liberty as an excuse for the flesh, but in love serve one another"

Right, the works of the flesh can condemn. The works of the flesh are listed as certain sins in Galatians 5:19-21 and they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

You said:
now you start screaming, no we are not, we must keep them all perfectly to be saved. But that is not what the bible teaches.

I am not referring to "Sinless Perfectionism." That is your assumption. Not all sins lead to spiritual death (See: 1 John 5:17). I am referring to those grievous sins that the Bible clearly condemns (Which is the breaking of the Moral Law, like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not hate, etc., i.e. to love your neighbor.).

devin553344 · Oct 1, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
All who offend and do iniquity in His Kingdom are cast into the Lake of Fire.
1 John 3:7 says that he that does righteousness is righteous.
We learn in Matthew 25:21 that the servant who was faithful over little was told to enter into the joy of their Lord and to be rewarded. In Matthew 25:30, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Jesus says in Matthew 7 that we will know a tree by its fruit. Fruits are deeds.
Jesus says a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Jesus then talks about how some believers who do good works and who work iniquity (sin) are told to depart from Him (See Matthew 7:23). John 3:10 says,

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

In other words, the Bible says it is so many different ways it is ridiculous to not get that we also have to live righteously as a part of eternal life. Jude 1:4 talks about those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality. On, and on the Word of God speaks such things.

And you're sure those people will be judged to the lake of fire? You sound like you are.

That doctrine doesn't sound correct to me. You're quoting a few scriptures and ignoring the abundance of other scripture, lets look at Romans 2:17-24

17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

This scripture teaches us that we are all habitual sinners! Attempting to be saved by the law is useless as you will continue to habitually sin. Do you take in the homeless, feed the hungry, cloth the naked, and do all the hidden perfection that only Jesus could fulfill and do it perfectly? And then using your logic we all go to the lake of fire. And non are saved.

So let me ask you this: how do you feel you will escape the lake of fire? Is by Grace? If you answer yes then you are no different than everyone else in my opinion.

BCsenior · Oct 1, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
James 1:12 says, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried,
he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."
The crown of life is promised to those that love Him (The Lord our GOD).
For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

BTW, if you search the Scriptures diligently, you will find that ...
"the crown of life" means ETERNAL LIFE!

BCsenior · Oct 1, 2019

FutureAndAHope said:
Where I am fervently against you (BH) is in the fact that you seem to be denying the grace of God. The bible makes it clear in many places we are saved not by obeying the law, be it new or old,
but rather by trusting in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. That is the work that we are called to primarily, to "believe in the one God sent [Jesus]".

Which means, BH is NOT teaching grace-only, hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc.
Let us praise God for that.

Dearest FAAP, what makest thou of Galatians 5:4 wherein ...
the Jewish BACs have gotten demselves estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace?

Nowhere is God's grace guaranteed to last forever in the life of a BAC.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2019

BCsenior said:
BTW, if you search the Scriptures diligently, you will find that ...
"the crown of life" means ETERNAL LIFE!

Thanks.
Blessings to you in the Lord today.

BCsenior · Oct 1, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ).
It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation
(Without doing any kind of work).
Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9).

I do not agree with the red ... it is incomplete and thus incorrect.
IMO ...
Initial salvation is totally a work of God's grace (man cannot choose).
Final salvation is a combined work of God's grace ...
+ man is FREE to choose to NOT be a sinner (he is NOT a robot)
+ man's faithfulness (obedience, repentance, practicing righteousness, etc.).

Who gets cast into the everlasting lake of fire?

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Just me

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

I believe in the Resurrection

Still an evangelist

Still an evangelist

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Still an evangelist

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