LDS Make a list of all your LDS doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Wh

Daniel Marsh · Sep 18, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
CHURCH FATHERS: On the Baptism of Christ (Gregory of Nyssa)
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, Book IV (Augustine)

"In the sacraments of salvation, when necessity compels, and God bestows His mercy, the divine methods confer the whole benefit on believers; nor ought it to trouble any one that sick people seem to be sprinkled or affused, when they obtain the Lord's grace, when Holy Scripture speaks by the mouth of the prophet Ezekiel, and says, Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean: from all your filthiness and from all your idols will I cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit will I put within you. Ezekiel 36:25-26 Also in Numbers: And the man that shall be unclean until the evening shall be purified on the third day, and on the seventh day shall be clean: but if he shall not be purified on the third day, on the seventh day he shall not be clean. And that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of sprinkling has not been sprinkled upon him. And again: And the Lord spoke unto Moses saying, Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them. And thus shall you do unto them, to cleanse them: you shall sprinkle them with the water of purification. Numbers 8:5-7 And again: The water of sprinkling is a purification. Numbers 19:9 Whence it appears that the sprinkling also of water prevails equally with the washing of salvation; and that when this is done in the Church, where the faith both of receiver and giver is sound, all things hold and may be consummated and perfected by the majesty of the Lord and by the truth of faith." CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle 75 (Cyprian of Carthage)

From Archaeology which is not Catholic,
"
Sixty times the food of life, sixty times the water of life,
sprinkle upon it,

...

Sprinkle Ishtar with the water of life and take her from
my presence!”

...

“See, O Telepinus! I have now sprinkled thy ways
with fine oil. So walk thou, Telepinus, over these ways
that are sprinkled with fine oil! (30) Let sahis wood
and happuriasas wood be at hand! Let us set thee right,
O Telepinus, into whatever state of mind is the right
one!”

"Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating To The Old Testament"

"Full text of "Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating To The Old Testament"

Daniel Marsh · Sep 18, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
From your own church, "There were various purifying ceremonies. Bathing the flesh and the clothes in running water was used in all and sufficed in the simplest cases. When the uncleanness was of a deeper character, a purifying water for sprinkling was provided:"Purification

I am surprised you never made the connection.

Daniel Marsh · Sep 18, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
Other cases:

Exodus 29:21 Then take some of the blood from the altar. Mix it with the special oil and sprinkle it on Aaron and his clothes. And sprinkle it on his sons and their clothes. This will show that Aaron and his sons serve me in a special way. And it will show that their clothes are used only at special times.

Leviticus 4:6 He must put his finger in the blood and sprinkle the blood seven times before the Lord in front of the curtain of the Most Holy Place.

Leviticus 4:17 He must put his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times in front of the curtain before the Lord.

Leviticus 5:9 The priest will sprinkle the blood from the sin offering on the side of the altar. Then he will pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering.

Leviticus 6:27 Touching the meat of the sin offering makes a person or a thing holy. “If any of the sprinkled blood falls on a person’s clothes, you must wash the clothes in a holy place.

Leviticus 7:2 A priest must kill the guilt offering in the same place where they kill the burnt offerings. Then he must sprinkle the blood from the guilt offering around the altar.

Leviticus 7:14 Offer one each of these different kinds of bread as a gift to the Lord. Then it will belong to the priest who sprinkles the blood of the fellowship offerings.

Leviticus 8:10 Then Moses took the anointing oil and sprinkled it on the Holy Tent and on everything in it. In this way he made them holy.

Leviticus 8:11 He sprinkled some of the anointing oil on the altar seven times. He sprinkled the oil on the altar, on all its tools and dishes, and on the bowl and its base. In this way he made them holy.

Leviticus 8:19 Then Moses killed the ram. He sprinkled the blood around on the altar.

Leviticus 8:24 Then Moses brought Aaron’s sons close to the altar. He put some of the blood on the tip of their right ears, on the thumb of their right hands, and on the big toe of their right feet. Then he sprinkled the blood around on the altar.

Leviticus 8:30 Moses took some of the anointing oil and some of the blood that was on the altar. He sprinkled some on Aaron and on Aaron’s clothes. He sprinkled some on Aaron’s sons who were with Aaron and on their clothes. In this way Moses made Aaron, his clothes, his sons, and his sons’ clothes holy.

Leviticus 9:12 Next, Aaron killed the animal for the burnt offering. His sons brought the blood to him, and he sprinkled the blood around on the altar.

Leviticus 9:18 Aaron also killed the bull and the ram that were the fellowship offerings from the people. His sons brought the blood to him, and he sprinkled this blood around on the altar.

Leviticus 14:7 He must sprinkle the blood seven times on those who had the skin disease. Then he must announce that they are clean. After that the priest must go to an open field and let the living bird go free.

Leviticus 14:16 Then the priest will dip the finger of his right hand into the oil that is in his left palm. He will use his finger to sprinkle some of the oil seven times before the Lord.

Leviticus 14:27 He will use the finger of his right hand to sprinkle some of the oil that is in his left palm seven times before the Lord.

Leviticus 14:51 Then he will take the cedar wood, the hyssop, the piece of red cloth, and the living bird and dip them in the blood of the bird that was killed over running water. Then he will sprinkle that blood on the house seven times.

Leviticus 16:14 Aaron will dip his finger into the bull’s blood and sprinkle it on the front of the Holy Box. Then he will sprinkle the blood seven times onto the front of the mercy-cover.

Leviticus 16:15 “Then Aaron will kill the goat of the sin offering for the people. He will bring this goat’s blood into the room behind the curtain. He will do with the goat’s blood as he did with the bull’s blood. He will sprinkle the goat’s blood on the mercy-cover and in front of it.

Leviticus 16:19 Then he will dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it on the altar seven times. In this way Aaron will make the altar holy and clean from all the sins of the Israelites.

Numbers 8:7 This is what you should do to make them clean: Sprinkle the special water from the sin offering on them. This water will make them clean. Then they must shave their bodies and wash their clothes. This will make their bodies clean.

Numbers 18:17 “But you must not make a payment for the firstborn cow, sheep, or goat. These animals are holy. Sprinkle their blood on the altar and burn their fat as a sweet-smelling gift to the Lord.

Numbers 19:4 Then Eleazar the priest must put some of its blood on his finger and sprinkle some of the blood toward the Holy Tent. He must do this seven times.

Numbers 19:18 That clean person must take a hyssop branch and dip it into the water. The clean person must sprinkle it over the tent, the dishes, and any people who were in the tent. That clean person must do this for anyone who touches a dead body, its bones, or even a grave.

Numbers 19:19 “Then that clean person must sprinkle this water on you on the third day and again on the seventh day. On the seventh day you will become clean. You must wash your clothes in water and you will become clean in the evening.

Numbers 19:20 “Whoever becomes unclean and does not become clean must be separated from the community. If an unclean person is not sprinkled with that special water and does not become clean, that person might make the Lord’s Holy Tent unclean.

Numbers 19:21 This rule will be for you forever. And whoever sprinkled the special water must wash their clothes because they will be unclean until evening.

2 Kings 16:13 Ahaz burned his burnt offerings and grain offerings on it. He poured his drink offering and sprinkled the blood of his fellowship offerings on this altar.

2 Kings 16:15 He commanded Uriah the priest, “Use the large altar to burn the morning burnt offerings, the evening grain offerings, and the drink offerings from all the people of this country. Sprinkle all the blood from the burnt offering and other sacrifices on the large altar. But I will use the bronze altar to get answers from God.”

2 Chronicles 29:22 So the priests killed the bulls and kept the blood. Then they sprinkled the bulls’ blood on the altar. Then they killed the rams and sprinkled the rams’ blood on the altar. Then they killed the lambs and sprinkled the lambs’ blood on the altar.

2 Chronicles 30:16 They took their regular places in the Temple as described in the Law of Moses, the man of God. The Levites gave the blood to the priests. Then the priests sprinkled the blood on the altar.

2 Chronicles 35:11 The Passover lambs were killed. Then the Levites skinned the animals and gave the blood to the priests. The priests sprinkled the blood on the altar.

Ezekiel 36:25 Then I will sprinkle pure water on you and make you pure. I will wash away all your filth, the filth from those nasty idols, and I will make you pure.

Ezekiel 43:18 Then the man said to me, “Son of man, this is what the Lord God says: ‘These are the rules for the altar: At the time you build the altar, use these rules to offer burnt offerings and to sprinkle blood on it.

Ezekiel 43:24 Then you will offer them before the Lord. The priests will sprinkle salt on them. Then they will offer the bull and ram up as a burnt offering to the Lord.

Hosea 7:9 Strangers destroy Ephraim’s strength, but Ephraim does not know it. Gray hairs are also sprinkled on Ephraim, but Ephraim does not know it.

Hebrews 9:13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a cow were sprinkled on those who were no longer pure enough to enter the place of worship. The blood and ashes made them pure again—but only their bodies.

Hebrews 9:19 First, Moses told the people every command in the law. Then he took the blood of young bulls and mixed it with water. He used red wool and a branch of hyssop to sprinkle the blood and water on the book of the law and on all the people.

Hebrews 9:21 In the same way, Moses sprinkled the blood on the Holy Tent. He sprinkled the blood over everything used in worship.

Hebrews 10:22 Sprinkled with the blood of Christ, our hearts have been made free from a guilty conscience, and our bodies have been washed with pure water. So come near to God with a sincere heart, full of confidence because of our faith in Christ.

Hebrews 12:24 You have come to Jesus—the one who brought the new agreement from God to his people. You have come to the sprinkled blood that tells us about better things than the blood of Abel.

Daniel Marsh · Sep 18, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
Your lack of knowledge is amusing. Baptism is a purification ritual. Whatever water was available was used. My Jewish Ancestors lived in a Desert Environment. In cases where water was limited, sprinkling was done. It is God himself speaking below.

Ezekiel 36:25 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
25 Then I will sprinkle pure water on you and make you pure. I will wash away all your filth, the filth from those nasty idols, and I will make you pure.

Daniel Marsh · Sep 18, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
The Didache is proof of what the early church practiced. It is not proof of any kind of Apostasy.

I want only the Early Church Fathers, not the Bible. Since the King James Bible has been misinterpreted by many today.

The early church Fathers were appointed and taught by the apostles themselves.

The whole great apostasy thing is a myth by those who can not handle the truths of history.

"
Chapter 14. Of Paul's Assertion, that He Had Not Been Sent to Baptize
But they roll back an objection from that apostle himself, in that he said, For Christ sent me not to baptize;1 Corinthians 1:17 as if by this argument baptism were done away! For if so, why did he baptize Gaius, and Crispus, and the house of Stephanas? However, even if Christ had not sent him to baptize, yet He had given other apostles the precept to baptize. But these words were written to the Corinthians in regard of the circumstances of that particular time; seeing that schisms and dissensions were agitated among them, while one attributes everything to Paul, another to Apollos. For which reason the peace-making apostle, for fear he should seem to claim all gifts for himself, says that he had been sent not to baptize, but to preach. For preaching is the prior thing, baptizing the posterior. Therefore the preaching came first: but I think baptizingwithal was lawful to him to whom preaching was.

Chapter 15. Unity of Baptism. Remarks on Heretical And Jewish Baptism
I know not whether any further point is mooted to bring baptism into controversy. Permit me to call to mind what I have omitted above, lest I seem to break off the train of impending thoughts in the middle. There is to us one, and but one, baptism; as well according to the Lord's gospel as according to the apostle's letters, inasmuch as he says, One God, and one baptism, and one church in the heavens. But it must be admitted that the question, What rules are to be observed with regard to heretics? is worthy of being treated. For it is to us that that assertion refers. Heretics, however, have no fellowship in our discipline, whom the mere fact of their excommunication testifies to be outsiders. I am not bound to recognize in them a thing which is enjoined on me, because they and we have not the same God, nor one — that is, the same— Christ. And therefore their baptism is not one with ours either, because it is not the same; a baptism which, since they have it not duly, doubtless they have not at all; nor is that capable of being counted which is not had. Ecclesiastes 1:15 Thus they cannot receive it either, because they have it not. But this point has already received a fuller discussion from us in Greek. We enter, then, the font once: once are sins washed away, because they ought never to be repeated. But the Jewish Israel bathes daily, because he is daily being defiled: and, for fear that defilementshould be practised among us also, therefore was the definition touching the one bathing made. Happy water, which once washes away; which does not mock sinners (with vain hopes); which does not, by being infected with the repetition of impurities, again defile them whom it has washed!

Chapter 16. Of the Second Baptism — With Blood"

CHURCH FATHERS: On Baptism (Tertullian)

Daniel Marsh · Sep 18, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
Ok friend, thanks for defining. What quotes with links from the church fathers do you have. Is burning in the bosom part of that definition above?

Didache

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache

Peter1000 · Sep 20, 2019

Wow, thanks for the montage of OT stuff. It is an impressive study, and I commend you for your work.

If you were to do this same study on circumcision, you would find about the same kind of situation. The OT Jews practiced circumcision and every male member bore that mark. Even after Jesus came and introduced the NT, the Jews, and some Jewish members of the church continued to practice circumcision. But it was a practice that was not done in the Christian community any more after the NT was in force.

The same thing with baptism. I believe that the OT baptism was done. It could have been done other ways than just water immersion, but when the NT superseded the OT covenants, baptism was an ordinance set down by Jesus to be done a specific way, and that way was plainly shown to us by Jesus when he was baptized.

Again, you can do as you please, but as for me, I was baptized by water immersion, and all of my children and grand children have been baptized by water immersion. So as for me and my family we will do as the Lord did, and follow him into the waters of baptism.

Peter1000 · Sep 26, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
Make a list of all your LDS doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Whom the Apostles taught. Yes, this is a challenge

The doctrine that God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are 3 separate and distinct persons is the true doctrine about the Godhead.

The early church father, Justin Martyr agrees with us, that they are not 1 God in 3 persons. Origen, another early church father implies the same.

So what early church father do you know that specifically teaches the Trinity doctrine, which did not become the official church doctrine until 325ad much later than the early church fathers, which to me is 100-200ad.

BNR32FAN · Sep 26, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
Think about it friend, if the only writings from that period are Catholic, then that would mean the Catholic Church is the Original Church.

Well unless a certain group was kicked out of the Catholic Church and kept the name and the true Catholic Church decided to change their name to Orthodox so as to avoid confusion. If that were the case then the present Catholic Church would only appear to be the original Catholic Church. At least until you really start to look into their doctrines and history.

Daniel Marsh · Sep 29, 2019

Peter1000 said:
Wow, thanks for the montage of OT stuff. It is an impressive study, and I commend you for your work.

If you were to do this same study on circumcision, you would find about the same kind of situation. The OT Jews practiced circumcision and every male member bore that mark. Even after Jesus came and introduced the NT, the Jews, and some Jewish members of the church continued to practice circumcision. But it was a practice that was not done in the Christian community any more after the NT was in force.

The same thing with baptism. I believe that the OT baptism was done. It could have been done other ways than just water immersion, but when the NT superseded the OT covenants, baptism was an ordinance set down by Jesus to be done a specific way, and that way was plainly shown to us by Jesus when he was baptized.

Again, you can do as you please, but as for me, I was baptized by water immersion, and all of my children and grand children have been baptized by water immersion. So as for me and my family we will do as the Lord did, and follow him into the waters of baptism.

Jesus said to baptize, He did not prescribe a specific method.

Mark 7:4 ►
Mark 7 - Click for Chapter
4 2532 [e]
4 kai
4 καὶ
4 and
4 Conj
575 [e]
ap’
ἀπ’
[on coming] from
Prep
58 [e]
agoras
ἀγορᾶς ,
the market
N-GFS
1437 [e]
ean
ἐὰν
if
Conj
3361 [e]
mē
μὴ
not
Adv
907 [e]
baptisōntai
βαπτίσωνται*
they wash
V-ASM-3P
3756 [e]
ouk
οὐκ
not
Adv
2068 [e]
esthiousin
ἐσθίουσιν ;
they eat
V-PIA-3P
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj

Luke 11:38 ►
Luke 11 - Click for Chapter
38 3588 [e]
38 ho
38 ὁ
38 -
38 Art-NMS
1161 [e]
de
δὲ
And
Conj
5330 [e]
Pharisaios
Φαρισαῖος ,
the Pharisee
N-NMS
3708 [e]
idōn
ἰδὼν ,
having seen [it]
V-APA-NMS
2296 [e]
ethaumasen
ἐθαύμασεν
marveled
V-AIA-3S
3754 [e]
hoti
ὅτι
that
Conj
3756 [e]
ou
οὐ
not
Adv
4412 [e]
prōton
πρῶτον
first
Adv-S
907 [e]
ebaptisthē
ἐβαπτίσθη
He washed
V-AIP-3S

Baptise also means to wash. If the Jewish Christians took on some of their practices, then it is very reasonable they also sprinkled for baptism too.

Not everywhere where the NT says baptize, it does not say what method was used.

I showed from history, texts related to the NT, the Fathers who were taught by the apostles and scripture that sprinkling is ok.

Daniel Marsh · Sep 29, 2019

Peter1000 said:
The doctrine that God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are 3 separate and distinct persons is the true doctrine about the Godhead.

The early church father, Justin Martyr agrees with us, that they are not 1 God in 3 persons. Origen, another early church father implies the same.

So what early church father do you know that specifically teaches the Trinity doctrine, which did not become the official church doctrine until 325ad much later than the early church fathers, which to me is 100-200ad.

Justin Martyr

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Origen

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

Justin Martyr
“God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: ‘Let us make man after our image and likeness.’ . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62 [A.D. 155]).

Chapter 36. Different modes of prophecy
But when you hear the utterances of the prophets spoken as it were personally, you must not suppose that they are spoken by the inspired themselves, but by the Divine Word who moves them. For sometimes He declares things that are to come to pass, in the manner of one who foretells the future; sometimes He speaks as from the person of God the Lord and Father of all; sometimes as from the person of Christ; sometimes as from the person of the people answering the Lord or His Father, just as you can see even in your own writers, one man being the writer of the whole, but introducing the persons who converse. And this the Jews who possessed the books of the prophets did not understand, and therefore did not recognise Christ even when He came, but even hate us who say that He has come, and who prove that, as was predicted, He was crucified by them.

Chapter 37. Utterances of the Father
And that this too may be clear to you, there were spoken from the person of the Father through Isaiah the Prophet, the following words: The ox knows his owner, and the ass his master's crib; but Israel does not know, and My people has not understood. Woe, sinful nation, a people full of sins, a wicked seed, children that are transgressors, you have forsaken the Lord. And again elsewhere, when the same prophet speaks in like manner from the person of the Father, What is the house that you will build for Me? Says the Lord. The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Isaiah 66:1 And again, in another place, Your new moons and your sabbaths My soul hates; and the great day of the fast and of ceasing from labour I cannot away with; nor, if you come to be seen of Me, will I hear you: your hands are full of blood; and if you bring fine flour, incense, it is abomination unto Me: the fat of lambs and the blood of bulls I do not desire. For who has required this at your hands? But loose every bond of wickedness, tear asunder the tight knots of violent contracts, cover the houseless and naked, deal your bread to the hungry. Isaiah 1:14, Isaiah 58:6 What kind of things are taught through the prophets from [the person of] God, you can now perceive.

Chapter 38. Utterances of the Son
And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks from the person of Christ, the utterances are of this sort: I have spread out My hands to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to those who walk in a way that is not good. Isaiah 65:2 And again: I gave My back to the scourges, and My cheeks to the buffetings; I turned not away My face from the shame of spittings; and the Lord was My helper: therefore was I not confounded: but I set My face as a firm rock; and I knew that I should not be ashamed, for He is near that justifies Me. Isaiah 50:6 And again, when He says, They cast lots upon My vesture, and pierced My hands and My feet. And I lay down and slept, and rose again, because the Lord sustained Me. And again, when He says, They spoke with their lips, they wagged the head, saying, Let Him deliver Himself. And that all these things happened to Christ at the hands of the Jews, you can ascertain. For when He was crucified, they did shoot out the lip, and wagged their heads, saying, Let Him who raised the dead save Himself. Matthew 27:39

Chapter 39. Direct predictions by the Spirit
And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks as predicting things that are to come to pass, He speaks in this way: For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2:3 And that it did so come to pass, we can convince you. For from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God; and we who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies, but also, that we may not lie nor deceive our examiners, willingly die confessing Christ. For that saying, The tongue has sworn but the mind is unsworn, might be imitated by us in this matter. But if the soldiers enrolled by you, and who have taken the military oath, prefer their allegiance to their own life, and parents, and country, and all kindred, though you can offer them nothing incorruptible, it were verily ridiculous if we, who earnestly long for incorruption, should not endure all things, in order to obtain what we desire from Him who is able to grant it.

CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)

Daniel Marsh · Sep 29, 2019

read to here

Peter1000 · Sep 30, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
Jesus said to baptize, He did not prescribe a specific method.

Mark 7:4 ►
Mark 7 - Click for Chapter
4 2532 [e]
4 kai
4 καὶ
4 and
4 Conj
575 [e]
ap’
ἀπ’
[on coming] from
Prep
58 [e]
agoras
ἀγορᾶς ,
the market
N-GFS
1437 [e]
ean
ἐὰν
if
Conj
3361 [e]
mē
μὴ
not
Adv
907 [e]
baptisōntai
βαπτίσωνται*
they wash
V-ASM-3P
3756 [e]
ouk
οὐκ
not
Adv
2068 [e]
esthiousin
ἐσθίουσιν ;
they eat
V-PIA-3P
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj

Luke 11:38 ►
Luke 11 - Click for Chapter
38 3588 [e]
38 ho
38 ὁ
38 -
38 Art-NMS
1161 [e]
de
δὲ
And
Conj
5330 [e]
Pharisaios
Φαρισαῖος ,
the Pharisee
N-NMS
3708 [e]
idōn
ἰδὼν ,
having seen [it]
V-APA-NMS
2296 [e]
ethaumasen
ἐθαύμασεν
marveled
V-AIA-3S
3754 [e]
hoti
ὅτι
that
Conj
3756 [e]
ou
οὐ
not
Adv
4412 [e]
prōton
πρῶτον
first
Adv-S
907 [e]
ebaptisthē
ἐβαπτίσθη
He washed
V-AIP-3S

Baptise also means to wash. If the Jewish Christians took on some of their practices, then it is very reasonable they also sprinkled for baptism too.

Not everywhere where the NT says baptize, it does not say what method was used.

I showed from history, texts related to the NT, the Fathers who were taught by the apostles and scripture that sprinkling is ok.

When Jesus walked into the waters of the Jordan river and was baptized by water immersion, he showed how a person was to be baptized.

Ever since then, men have tried to rationalize and minimize that example, even to the point of saying it is not even necessary in the salvation process. The proper way to be baptized with all of the symbolic characteristics present is by full water immersion. That is the only way.

If you think differently, then think differently, you will not persuade me from my belief.

Peter1000 · Sep 30, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
Justin Martyr

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Origen

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

Justin Martyr
“God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: ‘Let us make man after our image and likeness.’ . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62 [A.D. 155]).

Chapter 36. Different modes of prophecy
But when you hear the utterances of the prophets spoken as it were personally, you must not suppose that they are spoken by the inspired themselves, but by the Divine Word who moves them. For sometimes He declares things that are to come to pass, in the manner of one who foretells the future; sometimes He speaks as from the person of God the Lord and Father of all; sometimes as from the person of Christ; sometimes as from the person of the people answering the Lord or His Father, just as you can see even in your own writers, one man being the writer of the whole, but introducing the persons who converse. And this the Jews who possessed the books of the prophets did not understand, and therefore did not recognise Christ even when He came, but even hate us who say that He has come, and who prove that, as was predicted, He was crucified by them.

Chapter 37. Utterances of the Father
And that this too may be clear to you, there were spoken from the person of the Father through Isaiah the Prophet, the following words: The ox knows his owner, and the ass his master's crib; but Israel does not know, and My people has not understood. Woe, sinful nation, a people full of sins, a wicked seed, children that are transgressors, you have forsaken the Lord. And again elsewhere, when the same prophet speaks in like manner from the person of the Father, What is the house that you will build for Me? Says the Lord. The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Isaiah 66:1 And again, in another place, Your new moons and your sabbaths My soul hates; and the great day of the fast and of ceasing from labour I cannot away with; nor, if you come to be seen of Me, will I hear you: your hands are full of blood; and if you bring fine flour, incense, it is abomination unto Me: the fat of lambs and the blood of bulls I do not desire. For who has required this at your hands? But loose every bond of wickedness, tear asunder the tight knots of violent contracts, cover the houseless and naked, deal your bread to the hungry. Isaiah 1:14, Isaiah 58:6 What kind of things are taught through the prophets from [the person of] God, you can now perceive.

Chapter 38. Utterances of the Son
And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks from the person of Christ, the utterances are of this sort: I have spread out My hands to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to those who walk in a way that is not good. Isaiah 65:2 And again: I gave My back to the scourges, and My cheeks to the buffetings; I turned not away My face from the shame of spittings; and the Lord was My helper: therefore was I not confounded: but I set My face as a firm rock; and I knew that I should not be ashamed, for He is near that justifies Me. Isaiah 50:6 And again, when He says, They cast lots upon My vesture, and pierced My hands and My feet. And I lay down and slept, and rose again, because the Lord sustained Me. And again, when He says, They spoke with their lips, they wagged the head, saying, Let Him deliver Himself. And that all these things happened to Christ at the hands of the Jews, you can ascertain. For when He was crucified, they did shoot out the lip, and wagged their heads, saying, Let Him who raised the dead save Himself. Matthew 27:39

Chapter 39. Direct predictions by the Spirit
And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks as predicting things that are to come to pass, He speaks in this way: For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2:3 And that it did so come to pass, we can convince you. For from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God; and we who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies, but also, that we may not lie nor deceive our examiners, willingly die confessing Christ. For that saying, The tongue has sworn but the mind is unsworn, might be imitated by us in this matter. But if the soldiers enrolled by you, and who have taken the military oath, prefer their allegiance to their own life, and parents, and country, and all kindred, though you can offer them nothing incorruptible, it were verily ridiculous if we, who earnestly long for incorruption, should not endure all things, in order to obtain what we desire from Him who is able to grant it.

CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)

The washing with waters means full water immersion, not just a handwashing of the body.

Peter1000 · Sep 30, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
Justin Martyr

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Origen

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

Justin Martyr
“God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: ‘Let us make man after our image and likeness.’ . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62 [A.D. 155]).

Chapter 36. Different modes of prophecy
But when you hear the utterances of the prophets spoken as it were personally, you must not suppose that they are spoken by the inspired themselves, but by the Divine Word who moves them. For sometimes He declares things that are to come to pass, in the manner of one who foretells the future; sometimes He speaks as from the person of God the Lord and Father of all; sometimes as from the person of Christ; sometimes as from the person of the people answering the Lord or His Father, just as you can see even in your own writers, one man being the writer of the whole, but introducing the persons who converse. And this the Jews who possessed the books of the prophets did not understand, and therefore did not recognise Christ even when He came, but even hate us who say that He has come, and who prove that, as was predicted, He was crucified by them.

Chapter 37. Utterances of the Father
And that this too may be clear to you, there were spoken from the person of the Father through Isaiah the Prophet, the following words: The ox knows his owner, and the ass his master's crib; but Israel does not know, and My people has not understood. Woe, sinful nation, a people full of sins, a wicked seed, children that are transgressors, you have forsaken the Lord. And again elsewhere, when the same prophet speaks in like manner from the person of the Father, What is the house that you will build for Me? Says the Lord. The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Isaiah 66:1 And again, in another place, Your new moons and your sabbaths My soul hates; and the great day of the fast and of ceasing from labour I cannot away with; nor, if you come to be seen of Me, will I hear you: your hands are full of blood; and if you bring fine flour, incense, it is abomination unto Me: the fat of lambs and the blood of bulls I do not desire. For who has required this at your hands? But loose every bond of wickedness, tear asunder the tight knots of violent contracts, cover the houseless and naked, deal your bread to the hungry. Isaiah 1:14, Isaiah 58:6 What kind of things are taught through the prophets from [the person of] God, you can now perceive.

Chapter 38. Utterances of the Son
And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks from the person of Christ, the utterances are of this sort: I have spread out My hands to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to those who walk in a way that is not good. Isaiah 65:2 And again: I gave My back to the scourges, and My cheeks to the buffetings; I turned not away My face from the shame of spittings; and the Lord was My helper: therefore was I not confounded: but I set My face as a firm rock; and I knew that I should not be ashamed, for He is near that justifies Me. Isaiah 50:6 And again, when He says, They cast lots upon My vesture, and pierced My hands and My feet. And I lay down and slept, and rose again, because the Lord sustained Me. And again, when He says, They spoke with their lips, they wagged the head, saying, Let Him deliver Himself. And that all these things happened to Christ at the hands of the Jews, you can ascertain. For when He was crucified, they did shoot out the lip, and wagged their heads, saying, Let Him who raised the dead save Himself. Matthew 27:39

Chapter 39. Direct predictions by the Spirit
And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks as predicting things that are to come to pass, He speaks in this way: For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2:3 And that it did so come to pass, we can convince you. For from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God; and we who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies, but also, that we may not lie nor deceive our examiners, willingly die confessing Christ. For that saying, The tongue has sworn but the mind is unsworn, might be imitated by us in this matter. But if the soldiers enrolled by you, and who have taken the military oath, prefer their allegiance to their own life, and parents, and country, and all kindred, though you can offer them nothing incorruptible, it were verily ridiculous if we, who earnestly long for incorruption, should not endure all things, in order to obtain what we desire from Him who is able to grant it.

CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)

Daniel Marsh says:

Justin Martyr
“God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: ‘Let us make man after our image and likeness.’ . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62 [A.D. 155]).

Notice Justin says that God conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. This is what the Church of Jesus Christ believes.

Thank you for showing us just a snippet of what Martyr tells us of God and Jesus in the Dialogue with Trypho. There is more and more proof that JS was right on target with the correct nature of God and Jesus, per Justin Martyr. (the earliest father after the apostles died).

twin.spin · Oct 1, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
Jesus said to baptize, He did not prescribe a specific method. ….

…. Baptise also means to wash. If the Jewish Christians took on some of their practices, then it is very reasonable they also sprinkled for baptism too.

Not everywhere where the NT says baptize, it does not say what method was used.

I showed from history, texts related to the NT, the Fathers who were taught by the apostles and scripture that sprinkling is ok.

Correct. In the last centuries of the Old Testament era—the Greek word “baptizo” did mean to “immerse.” By the time the New Testament was written, that word described the application of water that included immersing, washing and pouring.

When the New Testament writers used the word “baptizo,” they were not using it in a way that always reflected its original meaning. Those writers used “baptizo” to describe the washing of hands (Mark 7:3; Luke 11:38) and kitchen utensils and furniture (Mark 7:4).

When Jesus gave the great commission, which included baptizing, he did not specify how water was to be applied to people. If the Lord really wanted Baptism to be done by immersion and immersion only, he could have used another Greek word – “bapto.” That word means “to dip” or “dip in something.” He did not use that word.

mmksparbud · Oct 1, 2019

twin.spin said:
Correct. In the last centuries of the Old Testament era—the Greek word “baptizo” did mean to “immerse.” By the time the New Testament was written, that word described the application of water that included immersing, washing and pouring.

When the New Testament writers used the word “baptizo,” they were not using it in a way that always reflected its original meaning. Those writers used “baptizo” to describe the washing of hands (Mark 7:3; Luke 11:38) and kitchen utensils and furniture (Mark 7:4).

When Jesus gave the great commission, which included baptizing, he did not specify how water was to be applied to people. If the Lord really wanted Baptism to be done by immersion and immersion only, he could have used another Greek word – “bapto.” That word means “to dip” or “dip in something.” He did not use that word.

I'll have to excuse myself from this one---I am in agreement with the immersion method and since this is not for Christians to debate with Christians---I'll bow out. Our church follows immersion as that is how Jesus Himself was baptized and the disciples and there is no incidence of any other method.

Peter1000 · Oct 2, 2019

twin.spin said:
Correct. In the last centuries of the Old Testament era—the Greek word “baptizo” did mean to “immerse.” By the time the New Testament was written, that word described the application of water that included immersing, washing and pouring.

When the New Testament writers used the word “baptizo,” they were not using it in a way that always reflected its original meaning. Those writers used “baptizo” to describe the washing of hands (Mark 7:3; Luke 11:38) and kitchen utensils and furniture (Mark 7:4).

When Jesus gave the great commission, which included baptizing, he did not specify how water was to be applied to people. If the Lord really wanted Baptism to be done by immersion and immersion only, he could have used another Greek word – “bapto.” That word means “to dip” or “dip in something.” He did not use that word.

Well, I am sure you are a sterling scholar on everything ancient Greek, especially all word meanings, and culture, with special little Greek nuances. But my small study in the interlinear greek online for the verses you presented, uses different Greek forms for baptize to represent words like bathe, and washing or wash, all of which could easily mean that the body should be fully immersed in water and the forks and utensils could easily mean that they are to be fully immersed in water.

Jesus did not have to give explicit instructions about how to baptize, because he showed them himself how it was to be done. So that when his disciples and apostles baptized, they did exactly what they saw when he was baptized.

Nowhere in the NT do you see or hear that someone went to the Jordan river and was sprinkled to be baptized. Or someone did not have enough water so the disciples pour a cup of water on them 3 times. All of the symbolic characteristics of full immersion baptism would be lost in the sprinkling process.

So ask yourself how does sprinkling or pouring satisfy the symbolic characteristics of baptism by full immersion?

Daniel Marsh · Oct 12, 2019

Peter1000 said:
The washing with waters means full water immersion, not just a handwashing of the body.

Washing in Water, in the related literature does mean hand washing. smile

You can look this up in Kittel and ANE texts, also the church fathers.

Daniel Marsh · Oct 12, 2019

mmksparbud said:
I'll have to excuse myself from this one---I am in agreement with the immersion method and since this is not for Christians to debate with Christians---I'll bow out. Our church follows immersion as that is how Jesus Himself was baptized and the disciples and there is no incidence of any other method.

Discussion

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