2 "Parousias" according to Partial Preterism......

mkgal1 · Sep 30, 2019

You brought up Thessalonians, asserting that's the Lord's "visible return" - and that's what I was discussing. Where does it mention "His visible return" in Thessalonians? I believe you're bringing that presumption to the text.

BABerean2 · Sep 30, 2019

mkgal1 said:
No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

Then please show us the texts which reveal what you believe about His Second Coming.

.

mkgal1 · Sep 30, 2019

BABerean2 said:
How about an audible return in that passage, and a visible return in the same event found in the Book of Revelation.

That is apocalyptic language that's used.

mkgal1 · Sep 30, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Then please show us the texts which reveal what you believe about His Second Coming.

.

I've been doing that. Please support the assertions you've already made.

Where are you getting the idea from the letters to the Thessalonians that Paul was writing - to comfort the 1st century church with - that his message was of a VISIBLE return of Christ? How would that offer them relief if it didn't happen in their lifetime? Was Paul offering false hope or was that just a platitude to appease them?

ewq1938 · Sep 30, 2019

mkgal1 said:
You brought up Thessalonians, asserting that's the Lord's "visible return" - and that's what I was discussing. Where does is mention "His visible return" in Thessalonians? I believe you're bringing that presumption to the text.

Christ spoke of a visible return so others like Paul speak of the same thing.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

mkgal1 · Sep 30, 2019

ewq1938 said:
Christ spoke of a visible return so others like Paul speak of the same thing.

Where do you get that from, then?

In Matthew 24 (if that's your only passage that informs you of that) - I believe - they were to see His power as we see the power of the wind during hurricanes. That wasn't prophesying a visible sighting of Jesus that was to come.

ewq1938 · Sep 30, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Where do you get that from, then?

It is in the part of my post you didn't bother to put into quotes.

mkgal1 · Sep 30, 2019

ewq1938 said:
It is in the part of my post you didn't bother to put into quotes.

I edited my post.

Jesus, Himself, as I already posted, warned the early church of false prophets that would come (during their lifetime) saying that Christ had come and was performing miracles. His warning that if anyone were to say a physical Christ had been spotted to NOT believe them was recorded in Matthew 24:23:

At that time, if anyone says to you, ’Look, here is the Christ!’ or ’There He is,’ do not believe it.

ewq1938 · Sep 30, 2019

mkgal1 said:
In Matthew 24 - I believe - they were to see His power as we see the power of the wind during hurricanes. That wasn't prophesying a visible sighting of Jesus that was to come.

Except the wording of the text proves you wrong: "they shall see the Son of man coming"

The text doesn't say they only saw "power" like wind...you are adding that concept onto the text which is called Eisegesis.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 30, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I edited my post.
Jesus, Himself, as I already posted warned the early church of false prophets that would come (during their lifetimes) saying that Christ has come and was performing miracles. His warning was recorded in Matthew 24:23: At that time, if anyone says to you, ’Look, here is the Christ!’ or ’There He is,’ do not believe it.

Hello mkgal......here are the rest to them........

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matthew 24:23
Then if any one may say to you, Lo, here [is] the Christ! or here! ye may not believe;
Mark 13:21
‘And then, if any may say to you, Lo, here [is] the Christ, or, Lo, there, ye may not believe;
Luke 17:23
People will tell you, 'Look, there He is,' or 'Here He is.' Do not go out or chase after them.

Matthew 24:23 Commentaries: Biblhub

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(23) Lo, here is Christ, or there.--Better, Lo, here is the Christ. The narrative of Josephus, while speaking of many "deceivers" claiming divine authority (Wars, ii. 13, ? 4), is silent as to any pretenders to the character of the Messiah. It is scarcely conceivable, however, that this should not have been one of the results of the fevered dreams of the people, and the reticence of the historian was probably a suppressio veri connected with his own recognition of Vespasian as a quasi Christ (Wars, vi. 5, ? 4).
=============================
EXEGETICAL (ORIGINAL LANGUAGES)

Meyer's NT Commentary
Matthew 24:23 ff. Τότε] then, when the desolation of the temple and the great θλίψις shall have arrived, false Messiahs, and such as falsely represent themselves to be prophets, will again come forward and urge their claims with greater energy than ever, nay, in the most seductive ways possible. Those here referred to are different from the pretenders of Matthew 24:4 f. The excitement and longing that will be awakened in the midst of such terrible distress will be taken advantage of by impostors with pretensions to miracle-working, and then how dangerous they will prove! By such early expositors as Chrysostom and those who come after him, Matthew 24:23 was supposed to mark the transition to the subject of the advent, so that τότε would pass over the whole period between the destruction of Jerusalem and the second advent; while, according to Ebrard (comp. Schott), the meaning intended by Jesus in Matthew 24:23-24 is, that after the destruction of the capital, the condition of the church and of the world, described in Matthew 24:4-14, “in posterum quoque mansurum esse.”
==============================

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

"Tell us, when shall these things be ? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled ?" Such were the questions of the disciples, in answer to which our LORD condescended to give them a particular account of the several important events that would precede, as well as of the prognostics which would announce, the approaching desolations ; including suitable directions for the regulation of their conduct under the various trials to which they were to be exposed. He commences with a caution : "Take heed," says be, "that no man deceive you ; for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many."

If it be objected that none of these impostors, except Dositheus, assumed the name of Messiah, we reply, that the groveling expectations of the Jews was directed to a Messiah who should merely deliver them from the Roman yoke, and "restore the kingdom to Jerusalem ;" and such were the pretensions of these deceivers. This expectation, indeed, is the only true solution of these strange and reputed insurrections ; which will naturally remind the reader of the following prophetic expressions of our LORD : "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not ; if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." " If they shall say unto you, 'Behold he is in the desert !" go not forth. They will shew [5] (or pretend to shew) great signs and wonders,"' &c. Our Saviour thus proceeded : "And ye shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars ; see that ye be not troubled : for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet, for nation shall rise up against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences : all these are the beginnings of sorrows. " -- Matt. xxiv. 7,8.
==============================================
Luke 21:31
Thus also ye whenever ye may be seeing these-things becoming ye are knowing that nigh/egguV <1451> is the Kingdom of the God.

James 5:8
be ye patient!, also stand-fast the hearts of ye, that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448> (5758);
===========================
Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
For the Time is nigh<1451>.

mkgal1 · Sep 30, 2019

ewq1938 said:
Except the wording of the text proves you wrong: "they shall see the Son of man coming"

The text doesn't say they only saw "power" like wind...you are adding that concept onto the text which is called Eisegesis.

As I already wrote - that is apocalyptic language. The wording of the text doesn't prove my interpretation to be wrong. My interpretation may clash with your presumption - but there's nothing that conflicts with my interpretation there.

mkgal1 · Sep 30, 2019

This is from our retired bishop - N.T. Wright

ewq1938 · Sep 30, 2019

mkgal1 said:
As I already wrote - that is apocalyptic language. The wording of the text doesn't prove my interpretation to be wrong. My interpretation may clash with your presumption - but there's nothing that conflicts with my interpretation there.

There is a conflict because you deny a visible second coming while Christ says it will be visible.

DavidPT · Sep 30, 2019

mkgal1 said:
As I already wrote - that is apocalyptic language. The wording of the text doesn't prove my interpretation to be wrong. My interpretation may clash with your presumption - but there's nothing that conflicts with my interpretation there.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Let's start with verse 29. Remind me what you take the tribulation of those days to be referring to. Because what ever that refers to, once those days are past, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. As to that, doesn't matter whether it's literal or not, not important for the point I'm trying to make, what matters is that it follows the trib of those days.

Now let's look at verse 30----And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Obviously this coming is after the trib of those days, and after or maybe even during when the sun shall be darkened, etc. Since it's illogical to apply this coming to the trib of those days, what event/s per your position explains this coming post the trib of those days?

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 30, 2019

ewq1938 said: ↑
Except the wording of the text proves you wrong: "they shall see the Son of man coming"
The text doesn't say they only saw "power" like wind...you are adding that concept onto the text which is called Eisegesis.

mkgal1 said: ↑
As I already wrote - that is apocalyptic language. The wording of the text interpretation to be wrong. My interpretation may clash with your presumption - but there's nothing that conflicts with my interpretation there.

Hello mkgal.
It appears there are 1st century witnessed that confirm the parousia of Jesus and mention Titus and the Roman army. [much like the King of Babylon vs Jerusalem]
Some interesting info along with a few thread:

Jesus, the Son of Man, was LITERALLY Seen in the Clouds in A.D. 66 - Revelation Revolution
Evidence of Christs coming
Described in Revelation 19.
–“You will see the Son of Man . . . coming on the Clouds of Heaven”: The Second Coming is recorded in Roman History.

An eerily similar event is recorded to have occurred in Iyyar of A.D. 66 at the start of the worst war in Israel’s history, Israel’s war with Rome:

[O]n the twenty-first day of the month of Artemisius [Jyar], a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.1

The first-century Jewish historian Josephus describes a heavenly army in the clouds much like the army Jesus leads in Revelation 19:11-14. This event is also recorded by other historians. The first-century pagan historian Tacitus also mentions this event: “In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour.”2 Pseudo-Hegesippus also describes the coming of Christ on the clouds with His mighty angels at that time when he writes, “A certain figure appeared of tremendous size, which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed, and before the setting of the sun there were suddenly seen in the clouds chariots in the clouds and armed battle arrays by which the cities of all Iudaea and its territories were invaded.”3 The medieval Jewish historian Sepher Yosippon expounds upon this angelic army in the sky of A.D. 66 by saying, “Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire.”4 The parallels between these three accounts and Revelation 19 are striking. However, in Yosippon’s account one can see how 2 Thessalonians 1:7 was explicitly and LITERALLY fulfilled in A.D. 66: “This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.”
===============================
Revelation 1:7 "....and every eye shall be seeing Him......"

LittleLambofJesus said:
Will every eye in the global world view this event literally?
I will be putting up commentaries on it as this thread progresses.
Discuss

Revelation 1:7
Behold! He is coming with the clouds, and shall-be-seeing/oyetai <3700> (5695) Him Every eye/ofqalmoV <3788> , even who any Him they pierce<1574>.
And shall be wailing/grieving<2875> over Him all the Tribes of the Land. Yea Amen.
[Jeremiah 4:13/Zechariah 12:10]

3700. optanomai , a (middle voice) prolonged form of the primary (middle voice) optomai op'-tom-ahee; which is used for it in certain tenses; and both as alternate of 3708
to gaze (i.e. with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable; and thus differing from 991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from 1492, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision; while 2300, and still more emphatically its intensive 2334, signifies an earnest but more continued inspection; and 4648 a watching from a distance):--appear, look, see, shew self.
G3700 ὀπτάνομαι (optanomai) occurs 1 times in 1 verses

3788. ophthalmos from 3700;
the eye (literally or figuratively); by implication, vision; figuratively, envy (from the jealous side-glance):--eye, sight.
G3788 ὀφθαλμός (ophthalmos) occurs 100 times in 85 verses

Some derivatives of 3700:

3701. optasia from a presumed derivative of 3700; visuality, i.e. (concretely) an apparition:--vision.
3708. horao properly, to stare at (compare 3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear:--behold, perceive, see, take heed.
========================

Pulpit Commentary
Verses 7, 8. - It is difficult to determine the exact connexion of these verses with one another, and with what precedes and follows. It seems best to make ver. 7 a kind of appendix to the salutation, and ver. 8 a kind of prelude to the whole book. They each give us one of the fundamental thoughts of the Apocalypse; ver. 7, Christ's certain return to judgment; ver. 8, his perfect Divinity. Verse 7. - He cometh. He who loveth us and cleansed us and made us to be a kingdom will assuredly come. While interpreting the verse of the second advent, we need not exclude the coming to "those who pierced him" in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to "the tribes of the earth" in the breakup of the Roman empire. With the clouds. This probably refers to Mark 14:62, "Ye shall see the Son of man ... coming with the clouds of heaven" (comp. Daniel 7:13, "Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven"). Aquinas and other writers make the clouds symbolize the saints, "who rain by preaching, glisten by working miracles, are lifted up by refusing earthly things, fly by lofty contemplation." And they also; better, and all they who (οἵτινες) pierced him. This is strong evidence of common authorship between the Fourth Gospel and the Apocalypse.

(1) St. John alone mentions the piercing.

(2) Here and in John 19:37 the writer, in quoting Zechariah 12:10, deserts the LXX. and follows the Masoretic Hebrew text. The LXX. softens down "pierced" into "insulted" (κάτωρχήσατο), "piercing" appearing a violent expression to use respecting men's treatment of Jehovah.

(3) Here and in John 19:37 the writer, in translating from the Hebrew, uses the uncommon Greek word ἐκκεντᾷν. The reference here is to all those who "crucify the Son of God afresh," not merely to the Jews. In what follows the Revised Version is to be preferred: "and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him? The wording is similar to Matthew 24:30 and the LXX. of Zechariah 12:10. The mourning is that of beating the breast, not wailing, and it is "over him" (ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν). Even so, Amen. Ναί Αμήν, like "Abba, Father" (Mark 4:36; Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:6), combines a Hebrew word with its Greek equivalent (comp. 2 Corinthians 1:20).
==============================
CONTINUED...................

random person said:
Will the second coming of Christ entail a 5'5"-7" Jewish man (common male height of the time) appearing in the skies above Jerusalem that every man, woman, and child will witness across the whole globe?

Or did Jesus mean something else? How long did the disciples stare stedfastly into the clouds and empty skies in Acts 1:10? 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 45 minutes, an hour or longer? The text only states stedfastly.

Please remember that Jesus ministered on earth during the Last Days - Hebrews 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20

And He shed His blood and died for us on earth at the End of the Age - Hebrews 9:26

Were these the Last Days of the material universe? Or the Last Days of the Mosaic Covenant? Was this at the end of the world? Or the end of the Jewish Age?

Have the Last Days run for nearly 2,000 years now? Has the End of the Age run for nearly 2,000 years now?

Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but desire fulfilled is a tree of life.

Seeing the Son of Man

Those who pierced Jesus lived in the first century. This helps explain Revelation 1:7 where the same wording is used. Those who "see" Him are "those who pierced Him" (cf John 19:7). John is telling us that those who pierced Jesus experienced His covenant wrath. Revelation 1:7 must refer to a pre-A.D. 70 fulfillment, before that generation passed away (Matthew 16:27-28; 24:34).

"Every eye, and those who pierced Him, shall see him" - The subject of the text is "the people of the land," viz. Judea; and it would be a direct misinterpretation, as well as false logic, to strain a term beyond its subject, by applying it to the final judgment of all. That all men shall see Him, we learn from other scriptures (2 Cor. V. 10); [the partial preterist writer of this piece has misinterpreted himself - see Hebrews 9:27] but we must deal faithfully with the text, and not force any word in order to make out a case. Truth never requires this. That the land of Judea, in the prophetic sense, is the subject, is evident from Zech. XII. 10; from which the words are taken, both here and in John XIX. 37.

"Those who pierced Him" are obviously those who had a hand in His death. The text declares that they shall see Him, employing for seeing the verb optomai, already noticed, as not limited to ocular seeing. Though those who pierced Him saw not His person after ascension, yet they saw His power bringing judgment on them, and making His cause prevail inspite of their persecution, and they speedily saw their kingdom terminated.

James Glasgow (1872)

Equating "seeing" with "understanding" is a common Biblical metaphor. In John 12:40 Jesus quotes Isaiah 6:10 to explain why some have not believed His message. Notice how "seeing" is equivalent to "understanding."

"Render the hearts of the people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, lest they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and repent and be healed." Isaiah 6:10

In quoting Isaiah, Jesus states Yahweh "has blinded their eyes" (John 12:40). This is not a physical blinding. The blinding is spiritual. To be blind is not to understand; to see is to understand and believe. "To open their eyes" is an expression used by Biblical writers to describe recognition and understanding (Acts of the Apostles 26:18 cf 1 Kings 8:29, 1 Kings 8:52; 2 Kings 2:16; 2 Kings 6:20; 2 Kings 19:16; Isaiah 35:5; Isaiah 42:7; Isaiah 42:16). The eyes of the disciples "were opened" by Jesus and "they recognized Him." (Luke 24:31) is another example of equating "seeing" with "understanding." David Chilton summarizes the text for us: "The crucifiers would see Him coming in judgment - that is, they would understand that His coming would mean wrath on the land (cf the use of the word "see" in Mark 1:44; Luke 17:22; John 3:36; Romans 15:21)."

David Chilton, Days of Vengeance

"And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky, to the other." Matthew 24:31

Immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem, God began to shake down the world (Matthew 24:29). The nations began to recognize Christ as King (24:30). In context, in verse 31 does not refer to the end of the world. Rather, it speaks of the spread of the Gospel in the nations.

Revelation 1:7 "....and every eye shall be seeing Him......

shilohsfoal said:
Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Can any of the preterists on this board provide any eye witness account of Christs coming in,the clouds.
Jesus clearly said they shall see him coming in the clouds.Please provide eye witness accounts below.

A Corporeal Return? Says Who?

Residential Bob said:
Jesus tells Caiaphas that he is coming in power in the clouds of heaven (Mt 26:64). Yes, clouds of heaven; not a stratus cloud, a cumulus cloud, or a fog hovering over a lake. Clouds of heaven.

Jesus also says that he will come “as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west.” (Mt 24:27) He comes as light from all directions. Also as the sound of the trumpet of God. (1 Thes 4:16). To repeat, a trumpet of God, not marching band brass.

The Bible does not describe a flesh-and-blood return of Christ.

When we consider all the ways that the Parousia is prophesied, we see that he comes everywhere. Lightning lights up the sky all around. The nature of his coming may elude us until we grasp it in the context of scripture. The way that Jesus comes—on clouds of heaven, as a call from God, as lightning—cannot be manifested in flesh and blood. A man cannot come in these ways. Christ’s advent is rather a return in power and spirit that the Scriptures corroborate. How much more glorious and momentous an advent that would be than to come in the body of a man.

Think about that for a moment, about limitations imposed on flesh and blood, even Christ’s. When in the flesh, Jesus performed miracles and amazed the crowds around him, and even some who heard by word of mouth. His miracles impacted locally. If he were to be a man again, what would change? What would his impact be globally and for all time? Would he really effect a worldwide utopia? Of course not. Even a return in power and spirit would not effect such an “idyllic” world. John the Divine says the wicked still live on the earth despite the presence of the kingdom. God’s kingdom does not vanquish evil from the world. It confronts evil and challenges it, but wickedness still persists outside the gates.

So where does the idea of a corporeal return come from? The church fathers? Dispensationalists? Who knows?

Certainly not from the Scriptures.

parousia70 · Sep 30, 2019

BABerean2 said:
His visible return is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10.
Did this text occur during 70 AD?

First thing's first...

Did the Lord of the Vineyard "Come" and "Destroy those wicked men" in 70AD, and did the Chief Cornerstone at that time grind them to powder as written in Matt 21? or are you asserting something other than what was prophesied to happen to them in that passage, happen to them instead?

Now as for your above question, Paul teaches that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is a first-century event that both he and the Thessalonians should expect to live unto (and Paul could not err).

And John, (who also could not err) in the Revelation, confirms Christ's "thief in the night" coming (cf: 1 Thessalonians 5:2) was to be a then contemporary event promised to befall 1st century peoples (Revelation 3:3)

BABerean2 · Sep 30, 2019

parousia70 said:
First thing's first...

Did the Lord of the Vineyard "Come" and "Destroy those wicked men" in 70AD, and did the Chief Cornerstone at that time grind them to powder as written in Matt 21? or are you asserting something other than what was prophesied to happen to them in that passage, happen to them instead?

Do you deny that we find both the Father and the Son in the passage below?

Who is the owner of the land in the passage?

Who is the "heir" to the land in the passage?

Is the Father found in verse 40?

Is the Father taking vengeance on those who killed His "son"?

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Mat 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
Mat 21:46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

.

parousia70 · Sep 30, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Where are you getting from the letters to the Thessalonians that Paul was writing to comfort the 1st century church with his message of a VISIBLE return of Christ? How would that offer them relief if it didn't happen in their lifetime?

Exactly. The Hope of Relief Paul is encouraging the Thessalonians to have is Key to understanding the timing...

Jesus came and cut off the Jewish persecution against the Thessalonian congregation. That's what they were expecting, and that is what they got -- scripture is very specific on it. It was a then-contemporary situation. Follow the scriptures on this...

The Thessalonicans were being persecuted by the Jews who were stirring up violence against them in their city (see Acts 17:1-14). Paul mentions this specifically at 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, saying that "God's wrath was to come upon them to the uttermost." Specifically, it was the coming of Jesus Christ to them that was to end that Jewish persecution against them. Paul writes:

"This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire" (2 Thessalonians 1:5-7)

Q. When would God give affliction to those that were persecuting the Thessalonican congregation and grant relief to the Thessalonians?

A. When the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.

Ask yourself:
Are the 1st century Thessalonians STILL suffering persecution at the Hands of the 1st century Jews?

If not, then the only option is that Christ’s coming happened and ended their persecution. There is no other scriptural option.

Was Paul offering false hope or was that just a platitude to appease them?

Negative.
Their Suffering and Persecution at the Hands of the Jews in the first century ENDED.
And Scripture is unambiguously clear about what event would be the event that ended it for THEM, THEN.

mkgal1 · Sep 30, 2019

ewq1938 said:
There is a conflict because you deny a visible second coming while Christ says it will be visible.

What I deny is that the passage you're using as support for a physical Jesus sighting means that.

parousia70 · Sep 30, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Do you deny that we find both the Father and the Son in the passage below?

No.

Who is the owner of the land in the passage?

Click to expand...

the Father, who "CAME" and Destroyed them Personally, according to the passage.
Do you disagree?

Who is the "heir" to the land in the passage?

Click to expand...

the Son

Is the Father found in verse 40?

Click to expand...

Yes.
Did the Father Come and personally destroy those wicked men, as vs 40 Prophesied to them He would?

And, Is the Son the Stone, and Is He found Found in Verse 44?
What does the Son/Stone accomplish exactly in Vs 44?

Are the Father and Son "One" As Jesus Himself claimed?
(John 10:30)

2 "Parousias" according to Partial Preterism......

Are the 2 parousias of Partial Preterism biblical?

Yes

No

I don't know right now

Other

I have never heard of it

The Parousia was fulfilled in the 1st century

There is only 1 Parousia

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Newbie

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

I love you three.

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

I love you three.

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

I love you three.

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

I love you three.

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Newbie

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

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