LDS LDS Jesus Could Have Lost His Godhood

Rescued One · Sep 30, 2019

He is the way said:
It is you who does not understand. Jesus said:

(New Testament | John 10:34 - 35)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

However Jesus was talking about their spirits and not their bodies. Apparently no one has figured that out yet. The body has to be perfected before it can become a God.

Sorry --- your rabbit trail does NOT say that spirit children can skip mortality and obedience to the commandments to become a god. Even your heavenly father god had to attain godhood the same way other Melchizedek Priesthood holders do.

"God is an exalted man....Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power."
Joseph Smith, the King Follett Sermon

Gods in embryo don't get exalted without a glorified body of flesh and bones.

Your supposed holy ghost has no body of flesh and bone, let alone a celestial one.

mmksparbud · Sep 30, 2019

He is the way said:
You said: "has only One Son of His own substance" Now you say No they are not of the same substance because the Father never died. You say that the universe is made out of nothing because nothing existed but then say the Father has always existed so which is it?

OH, for crying out loud-----It's countless times I and others have told you over and over---they were the same substance before the incarnation---always were from everlasting---after that Jesus became human, then obviously they no longer were for The Father was never human!!!! I've lost count how many times we've mentioned this to you!!
And you're being positively obtuse now!! Obviously the Creator of anything is something!!! So what??? Our creator makes worlds, and everything in them from nothing---yours has to have some sort of preexisting matter that nobody knows how it became matter, just that it always existed, which makes anything that always existed God---don't even try to explain---don't care. None of your theories make any sense. All you guys try to do is bring God down to a level that makes us God. If that were true----Lucifer would not have sinned by turning on God, for he would have been God also!! The 1/3 that followed him would not have sinned either, for they were God also and so were Adam and Eve and so, of course, that means they did not sin because they are God also and as such, they can do whatever they want! You have the right to believe whatever you want. Thanks but, ---NO THANKS!! Not buying into this stupidity. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit---ONE God from everlasting to everlasting---and that is who I wait for and worship and you can wait for whatever pre-existing matter you want. I'll stick with what the bible says.

mmksparbud · Sep 30, 2019

He is the way said:
You said: "You cannot claim to love God and yet still hold on to the mormon lies about him" In your opinion that is true. However, my opinion is different than yours. God is LOVE and we should walk as Jesus walked.

You do not keep a single colmmandment for you don't know Him! That is what is obvious! And that is what is seen every time you post anything about the keeping of the commandments!

dzheremi · Sep 30, 2019

Maybe I'm a jerk, but I look at Mormonism and non-Christian religions in the light of our teacher St. Paul's words to the Corinthians: "the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons." (1 Corinthians 10:20)

The non-Christian religions may have their own sacrifices and observances (like the 'keeping the commandments' constantly referenced here), but since they do not follow God, but instead the gods of their (e.g., Joseph Smith's) imaginations, what can we really say? Since they do not worship God by any of these things or in any way, since they do not know Him and/or embrace theologies which require them to actively reject Him (as in Mormonism, Islam, etc.), we cannot say anything other than what St. Paul said, correct? Either they are right and we are not, or we are right and they are not, but both are not true at the same time. So obviously some religions which claim to worship God are simply incorrect in that claim, generally through no fault of their individual adherents -- i.e., no individual Mormon created Mormon theology, save perhaps their 'prophets' who supposedly know the mind of God and hence can introduce any novel thing they wish, even if it is rejected nowadays, like Brigham Young's infamous 'Adam-God theory'.

We can give that no quarter in regards to what we believe and do and profess. Notice how the great teacher St. Paul does not so much focus on the idolaters as an object of ridicule, but warns the Christians away from embracing what they do, and more importantly who or what they do it to/for.

So it is odd to have Mormons tell us that yes, they do worship God, as though it is something that they can simply claim even while we know by their own theology as they profess it that it is entirely nothing of the kind. You go to your temples and do your masonic rituals invoking the name of God (blasphemy), but He is not there. Same with 'sacrament meeting'. God is not in your sacrament meeting. We know already by what you embrace instead. God is not whatever you say He is. He was incarnate and came to us and taught us the perfect and complete faith, and that was not Mormonism. There are not 'do-overs' 600, 1820, or however many other years later. Restorationism is just atheism/anti-theism dressed up in religious language. "Oh, we love God and want to restore what humans messed up...even though God guaranteed that He would be with His people, and the gates of Hell would not overcome His Church!"

No. That is not going to get anywhere with any Christian who knows their religion, even just a little bit. If they've ever approached the beliefs outlined in the Nicene Creed (and elsewhere), even without knowing anything about the Creed in particular, they will be able to tell "Hmm...something is not right in Mormonism." It is only because we have been in the time when people have set up for themselves false teachers for centuries now that replacement religions like Mormonism, Islam, etc. have ever received any audience. It is not God's doing.

He is the way · Sep 30, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Sorry --- your rabbit trail does NOT say that spirit children can skip mortality and obedience to the commandments to become a god. Even your heavenly father god had to attain godhood the same way other Melchizedek Priesthood holders do.

"God is an exalted man....Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power."
Joseph Smith, the King Follett Sermon

Gods in embryo don't get exalted without a glorified body of flesh and bones.

Your supposed holy ghost has no body of flesh and bone, let alone a celestial one.

(New Testament | Romans 8:9 - 18)

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

(New Testament | 1 John 3:23 - 24)

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

(New Testament | Matthew 26:41)

41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 6:19)

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

He is the way · Sep 30, 2019

mmksparbud said:
OH, for crying out loud-----It's countless times I and others have told you over and over---they were the same substance before the incarnation---always were from everlasting---after that Jesus became human, then obviously they no longer were for The Father was never human!!!! I've lost count how many times we've mentioned this to you!!
And you're being positively obtuse now!! Obviously the Creator of anything is something!!! So what??? Our creator makes worlds, and everything in them from nothing---yours has to have some sort of preexisting matter that nobody knows how it became matter, just that it always existed, which makes anything that always existed God---don't even try to explain---don't care. None of your theories make any sense. All you guys try to do is bring God down to a level that makes us God. If that were true----Lucifer would not have sinned by turning on God, for he would have been God also!! The 1/3 that followed him would not have sinned either, for they were God also and so were Adam and Eve and so, of course, that means they did not sin because they are God also and as such, they can do whatever they want! You have the right to believe whatever you want. Thanks but, ---NO THANKS!! Not buying into this stupidity. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit---ONE God from everlasting to everlasting---and that is who I wait for and worship and you can wait for whatever pre-existing matter you want. I'll stick with what the bible says.

You said: "they were the same substance before the incarnation---always were from everlasting---after that Jesus became human, then obviously they no longer were for The Father was never human!!!!"

That is not what the Nicene Creed says:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;"

From: Nicene Creed - Wikipedia

Nothing about the incarnation there.

He is the way · Sep 30, 2019

mmksparbud said:
You do not keep a single colmmandment for you don't know Him! That is what is obvious! And that is what is seen every time you post anything about the keeping of the commandments!

When did quoting the Bible become wrong?

mmksparbud · Sep 30, 2019

He is the way said:
You said: "they were the same substance before the incarnation---always were from everlasting---after that Jesus became human, then obviously they no longer were for The Father was never human!!!!"

That is not what the Nicene Creed says:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;"

From: Nicene Creed - Wikipedia

Nothing about the incarnation there.

I do not care what anything but the bible says. They were one before the incarnation, Jesus became human, that partially separated their substances--only partially, for Jesus still retains His divinity! He is still and always will be God, partially of the same substance but with the additional substance of humanity of which is not shared!! So, yes, they are of the same substances, but Jesus has an additional component that the Father nor the Holy Spirit share!! Don't see what the problem is! All are the same substance, Jesus now has an additional substance, that of human! Does that word it better for you? It is the same thing I've always said, Jesus has always retained His divinity--They are ONE. Jesus now is obviously also a glorified human!! God the Father, Holy Spirit has never been human. They do not share the humanity---they all share their divinity----of which we have none!!

mmksparbud · Sep 30, 2019

He is the way said:
When did quoting the Bible become wrong?

Quoting the bible is not wrong. Saying that the only way to know God is by keeping the commandments means you do not keep them for you have no idea who God the Father, Son or Holy Spirit is. You can quote the commandments all you want---you obviously do not keep them for you obviously do not know God.

twin.spin · Oct 1, 2019

He is the way said:
When did quoting the Bible become wrong?

When quoting it to substantiate false teachings \ false prophecies and twist it out of context as groups like the JW's, LDS are known for doing.

Rescued One · Oct 1, 2019

dzheremi said:
Maybe I'm a jerk, but I look at Mormonism and non-Christian religions in the light of our teacher St. Paul's words to the Corinthians: "the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons." (1 Corinthians 10:20)

The non-Christian religions may have their own sacrifices and observances (like the 'keeping the commandments' constantly referenced here), but since they do not follow God, but instead the gods of their (e.g., Joseph Smith's) imaginations, what can we really say? Since they do not worship God by any of these things or in any way, since they do not know Him and/or embrace theologies which require them to actively reject Him (as in Mormonism, Islam, etc.), we cannot say anything other than what St. Paul said, correct? Either they are right and we are not, or they we are right and they are not, but both are not true at the same time. So obviously some religions which claim to worship God are simply incorrect in that claim, generally through no fault of their individual adherents -- i.e., no individual Mormon created Mormon theology, save perhaps their 'prophets' who supposedly know the mind of God and hence can introduce any novel thing they wish, even if it is rejected nowadays, like Brigham Young's infamous 'Adam-God theory'.

We can give that no quarter in regards to what we believe and do and profess. Notice how the great teacher St. Paul does not so much focus on the idolaters as an object of ridicule, but warns the Christians away from embracing what they do, and more importantly who or what they do it to/for.

So it is odd to have Mormons tell us that yes, they do worship God, as though it is something that they can simply claim even while we know by their own theology as they profess it that it is entirely nothing of the kind. You go to your temples and do your masonic rituals invoking the name of God (blasphemy), but He is not there. Same with 'sacrament meeting'. God is not in your sacrament meeting. We know already by what you embrace instead. God is not whatever you say He is. He was incarnate and came to us and taught us the perfect and complete faith, and that was not Mormonism. There are not 'do-overs' 600, 1820, or however many other years later. Restorationism is just atheism/anti-theism dressed up in religious language. "Oh, we love God and want to restore what humans messed up...even though God guaranteed that He would be with His people, and the gates of Hell would not overcome His Church!"

No. That is not going to get anywhere with any Christian who knows their religion, even just a little bit. If they've ever approached the beliefs outlined in the Nicene Creed (and elsewhere), even without knowing anything about the Creed in particular, they will be able to tell "Hmm...something is not right in Mormonism." It is only because we have been in the time when people have set up for themselves false teachers for centuries now that replacement religions like Mormonism, Islam, etc. have ever received any audience. It is not God's doing.

Just so you know:

Rescued One · Oct 1, 2019

He is the way said:
(New Testament | Romans 8:9 - 18)

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

(New Testament | 1 John 3:23 - 24)

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

(New Testament | Matthew 26:41)

41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 6:19)

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Doing X, Y, and Z, is not going to save you. The Old Testament had more commandments than you can name. But Abraham had faith.

Ezekiel 36
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them....

31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

God's Spirit changes a person. God's Spirit brings the sheep to Him. People who worship false gods don't have His Spirit. They don't even want to know Him.

BigDaddy4 · Oct 1, 2019

He is the way said:
When did quoting the Bible become wrong?

The devil quoted Scripture to Jesus in Matthew 4. Was that wrong? Should you follow the devil because he knows the Scriptures, too?

He is the way · Oct 1, 2019

mmksparbud said:
I do not care what anything but the bible says. They were one before the incarnation, Jesus became human, that partially separated their substances--only partially, for Jesus still retains His divinity! He is still and always will be God, partially of the same substance but with the additional substance of humanity of which is not shared!! So, yes, they are of the same substances, but Jesus has an additional component that the Father nor the Holy Spirit share!! Don't see what the problem is! All are the same substance, Jesus now has an additional substance, that of human! Does that word it better for you? It is the same thing I've always said, Jesus has always retained His divinity--They are ONE. Jesus now is obviously also a glorified human!! God the Father, Holy Spirit has never been human. They do not share the humanity---they all share their divinity----of which we have none!!

We can also be partakers of the divine nature:

(New Testament | 2 Peter 1:4)

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

He is the way · Oct 1, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Quoting the bible is not wrong. Saying that the only way to know God is by keeping the commandments means you do not keep them for you have no idea who God the Father, Son or Holy Spirit is. You can quote the commandments all you want---you obviously do not keep them for you obviously do not know God.

You have your opinion about that. God is LOVE.

He is the way · Oct 1, 2019

twin.spin said:
When quoting it to substantiate false teachings \ false prophecies and twist it out of context as groups like the JW's, LDS are known for doing.

There are people who do not believe the Bible:

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:18 - 22)

18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

mmksparbud · Oct 1, 2019

He is the way said:
We can also be partakers of the divine nature:

(New Testament | 2 Peter 1:4)

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Yes, we can choose to imitate it. Our characters are changed---not what we are made of, one simply does not become divine---you are or you aren't

He is the way · Oct 1, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Doing X, Y, and Z, is not going to save you. The Old Testament had more commandments than you can name. But Abraham had faith.

Ezekiel 36
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them....

31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

God's Spirit changes a person. God's Spirit brings the sheep to Him. People who worship false gods don't have His Spirit. They don't even want to know Him.

God is LOVE.

He is the way · Oct 1, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
The devil quoted Scripture to Jesus in Matthew 4. Was that wrong? Should you follow the devil because he knows the Scriptures, too?

(Book of Mormon | Moroni 7:3 - 17)

3 Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven.
4 And now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable walk with the children of men.
5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.
6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.
7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.
8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.
9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.
10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.
12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

mmksparbud · Oct 1, 2019

He is the way said:
There are people who do not believe the Bible:

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:18 - 22)

18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Yes, like the Mormons who only believe it as long as it agrees with JS. They think it has been corrupted. They claim to believe it, and can endlessly quote it, but it is like a parrot who mimics. They only truly believe what their so called prophets have to say, not the bible.

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