Pope’s proposal for ‘new humanism’ would ‘wipe out Christianity’: Mother Miriam

redleghunter said:

Interesting. Who created 'all of this?'

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I think he's saying for example --[this is an example meant to illustrate the point] -- suppose you yourself personally went to a conference on education or on infrastructure building in poor countries that lack good education or infrastructure, and then you yourself stood up to speak to the conference attendees about the subject, education or infrastructure, and you were trying to talk to the people there at the conference who were from a variety of backgrounds, that during the moment when you are standing up reading your public statement about education, that's not the moment to try to change the subject to the only hope of eternal life -- you should be busy spreading the gospel most all of the time, but not in a way that would make it seem you couldn't care less about (their goal of) improving math education for 4th graders and other people came to try to figure out how to improve math education with you.

Now the pope did something better than just talk about math -- he talked about key things God tells us in scripture we are to do here in life -- justice and such. Straight from scripture (ask if you need verses), but he didn't do it in a way that would cause the gospel to seem political ideology....

You need to talk to them and spread the gospel, for sure, and you need to do it at a moment where they could hear you.

That's not if they are preoccupied about whether it's possible to build schools or roads in a nation with civil war in Africa, or such. You gotta use your heart and head and try to spread the gospel in a way that it can be heard.

Does that help?

Jonathan, you could correct or improve this guess at what you were saying.
Nice to meet you by the way!

Jonathan Walkerin said:

Well it kind of waters down the co-operation part if you maintain that your religion is the right one , they are heathens and any agreements should be on terms of your religion.

Some people consider that rude, which is presumably why people try to leave religion out of these agreements. I am sure it is nothing personal.

Kind of makes sense when they are drafting agreements to fix ozone layer that talk is about what we can do to cut CFC gases instead of figuring out how we can make it "Christ centered".

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redleghunter said:

Go ahead and post the sentence where she said it.

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I noticed just before 13 minute mark -- move your video slider to around the 12 minutes 30 seconds (say like 12:36) and begin to listen -- she begins to talk about demonic influence and then next that the pope apparently stated (she says just after the 13 minute mark; (also again later before minute 15 also)) that "the diversity of religions is willed by God".

Which is another way of saying all that happens is ultimately what God has willed, has control over and is intending to happen. (We know that many from other religions convert to Christianity....over time....if they heard the Good News. Of course, in order to even be able to at some time hear (in order to even listen at all to) the Good News, they might first need something -- they may need to notice to their surprise that Christians are not evil acting....)

Does that idea God has willed how things are around us sound familiar? You are in the Reformed church aren't you?

Is the doctrine in Reformed something like God is in control of all things all the time, and that all that is happening is willed by God? Is that correct?

What do you think of that?

redleghunter said:

YHWH is indeed Sovereign King.

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So....she's in error on that also? At least 2 significant errors, in your view? (not small ones, but more profound errors?)

I ask, because when a person is in a state of mind where they begin saying serious mistakes, we should charitably not hold all they say against them, but put it aside. Maybe pray for them. Realize they are having a bad day (or month, or year).


But, whatever we do, we surely should not try to learn what is true from them while they are making very serious mistakes.

Right?

JackRT said:

Most humanists I know are Christian. Those that are agnostic or atheistic worship nothing. Humanists do not worship humanity --- they serve humanity.

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Like in "To serve mankind"?

According to Christ you cannot serve two masters. Matt.6:24

“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."

Serve God or serve humanity?

A quote from Dostoyevsky.
“The more I love humanity in general the less I love man in particular. In my dreams, I often make plans for the service of humanity, and perhaps I might actually face crucifixion if it were suddenly necessary. Yet I am incapable of living in the same room with anyone for two days together. I know from experience. As soon as anyone is near me, his personality disturbs me and restricts my freedom. In twenty-four hours I begin to hate the best of men: one because he’s too long over his dinner, another because he has a cold and keeps on blowing his nose. I become hostile to people the moment they come close to me. But it has always happened that the more I hate men individually the more I love humanity.”

redleghunter said:

Interesting. Who created 'all of this?'

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Kind of depends who you ask I am sure. Hindu`s think it is Lord Brahma.

Evidence, or rather nonevidence for every explanation thats is not scientific is exactly the same and the scientific processes are mostly unknown as well.

redleghunter said:

All of that is fine. However, the Pope as representing the Catholic church should not sign some secular humanistic statement. He could easily say he is committed to the task at hand to bring the full love and devotion of the church to the identified sufferings in the world. And the Catholic church and most Christian churches would not have to sign some declaration to do such. Why? Because they have demonstrated throughout history since Pentecost they have done so and have been doing so.

No, Bergoglio once again involves his office and his church in a secular document which once again brings in ambiguity. So yes, help, they have been helping. Just don't accept the dogma of the world as if God does not exist.

1 Peter 3: NASB

8To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; 9not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.

10For,
“THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS,
MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.

11“HE MUST TURN AWAY FROM EVIL AND DO GOOD;
HE MUST SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT.

12“FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS,
AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER,
BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL.”

13Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good? 14But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, 15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame. 17For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. 18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

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Excellent teaching for each and all of us to apply ourselves.

How to preach to the lost that think they already have heard about Christ (but haven't really gotten it....)???

Here's a way to break through the blockages: show them Christ like love in action:

To those in a church that may most be saved, still it is needed to preach the gospel:

To those in a Muslim country, how to spread the gospel:
Pope calls tiny Christian flock in Muslim nation to be 'yeast' of society
RABAT, Morocco - Speaking to a small community of priests, religious and the Ecumenical Council of Churches in Morocco, Pope Francis Sunday said that consecrated people are not called to “govern” the people entrusted to them but to “love” them.

Despite being outnumbered in a country where 99 percent of society is Muslim and there are only an estimated 40,000 Catholics, Francis said Christians are called to be the “yeast” of Morocco.

“The problem is not when we are few in number, but when we are insignificant, [like] salt that has lost the flavor of the Gospel or lamps that no longer shed light,” he said.


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Doing so as your post wrote, we cannot judge because he merely endorsed a diverse group working for better secular public education.

That's about the same as endorsing road building or libraries. == It is not a wrong, if the person also preaches the gospel.

If Francis did not regularly preach the Gospel, then (if that were so, and it is not so...) it would be possible to ask him to repent for the lack.

But are you so sure he doesn't?

Halbhh said:

Excellent teaching for each and all of us to apply ourselves.

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redleghunter said:

All of that is fine. However, the Pope as representing the Catholic church should not sign some secular humanistic statement. He could easily say he is committed to the task at hand to bring the full love and devotion of the church to the identified sufferings in the world. And the Catholic church and most Christian churches would not have to sign some declaration to do such. Why? Because they have demonstrated throughout history since Pentecost they have done so and have been doing so.

No, Bergoglio once again involves his office and his church in a secular document which once again brings in ambiguity. So yes, help, they have been helping. Just don't accept the dogma of the world as if God does not exist.

1 Peter 3: NASB

8To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; 9not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.

10For,
“THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS,
MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.

11“HE MUST TURN AWAY FROM EVIL AND DO GOOD;
HE MUST SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT.

12“FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS,
AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER,
BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL.”

13Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good? 14But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, 15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame. 17For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. 18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

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redleghunter said:

Didn't know you were Catholic.

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Capital "C" Catholic? No. Small c.

catholic -- of or including all Christians.

I think all Christians should follow Christ who said: "Love one another as I have loved you." That makes us 'catholic' -- we accept our brothers and sisters in all churches who truly believe in Christ Jesus, raise from the dead, and:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of the saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.

--Apostles' Creed, a summary of key faith belief from before printed Bibles were available.

Here 'catholic' means universal -- all of our brothers and sisters in Christ who believe as above.

It's interesting there is a similar faith statement for CF, about the meaning of 'catholic'.

redleghunter said:

Didn't know you were Catholic.

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Here's that one:

CF Statement of Faith
The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

Notes
* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

redleghunter said:

Didn't know you were Catholic.

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So, now that you know I'm 'catholic' but not "Catholic"...did you noticed what Francis was saying in post #112 above?

What did you think of those instances?

redleghunter said:

Difference of course is every pagan pantheon had a beginning.

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You are just making that up. I am sure there are plenty of religions ; pantheons or otherwise that think they have eternal creators.

redleghunter said:

Name one.

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Creator deity - Wikipedia

Going on alphabetical order first one that fits definition.


Bahá'í
In the Bahá'í Faith God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.[26]