I think I'm unregnerate, reprobate, vessel of wrath, despairing, tried all I can think of

Techedtchr said:

Diana, I'm Chris, and pretty much everything you wrote about your state of mind describes mine. How we got here is different, but you are 100% where I am. I can't offer encouragement or anything, but you're not alone. And I as well appreciate any prayers and I also appreciate aiki's advice. I will take that into consideration. I also apply extra pressure to myself because I have a wife and three children who are depending on me to be a spiritual leader. But even that is getting me nowhere. I will continue to pray and we'll see what happens.

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Diana and Chris,
Many years ago I was where you are now. I doubted the truth of the bible & wasn't sure if God existed, but God was working in me to draw me to become a believer. I tried to make myself believe, but that never worked. I lost count of the many times I said the sinners' prayer begging God to save me while at the same time not being sure if He was real. My life was one of fear, misery, and confusion. I thought I would never know what it meant to "believe" in Jesus.
To make a long story a short one I"ll just say that after many years of living in my misery I gave up on myself and looked to the God who I wasn't even sure existed for help. My problem was that I was focused on myself; on the things "I" was doing to try to believe in Jesus. When I gave up on me and approached God as a hopeless, helpless sinner who was desperate to know how to believe, then God, through His Word & the Holy Spirit opened my blind spiritual eyes and allowed me to see what believing really means. This is believing:
God showed me that when Jesus went to the cross He took my sins with Him and paid the penalty I owed "in full."
The 3rd verse of my favorite hymn "It Is Well with My Soul" says it all:
My sin Oh the bliss of this glorious thought.
My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross and I bare it no more,
Praise the Lord Oh my soul.

When I saw that my sin debt had already been paid then an enormous sense of relief overwhelmed my troubled soul, and at that moment I became a believer. There is more to the story, but that is basically how God brought me out of the darkness of unbelief into the light of His Gospel.
John

diana092086 said:

Thank you for the responses, you guys. My problem is that I've looked so many places to figure out how to do this Christian thing without actually being one. Now i know so much and i know God is there. I know. I know how I'm supposed to be as a Christian. I know so much. Too much. I learn of others' testimonies and try to surrender. Doesn't work. I'm learning the Father does the drawing. I've never felt compelled on my own to cry out to God. Never thought of it. I only go to Him because that's what others say to do. But it doesn't work. I don't think I'm genuine or sincere. I think it's too late for me. Not everyone believes, not everyone is saved or chosen. I'm think I'm lost and hopeless. And maybe i just need to leave it alone and walk away. If He saves me, He saves me. He's the potter. I'm just the clay. Thank you, everyone, for the love and support. I just know too much that i think I've spoled my faith.

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Yes, God does the drawing, and He is drawing you. It is not too late for you. Yes, you are lost and hopeless, but your realizing that is evidence that God is drawing you to believe in Jesus. Do not walk away; if you do then God cannot save you. Satan, the enemy of your soul is also working on you and he wants you to give up and walk away.
You said you don't think you are sincere enough. Well, Elle, do you see yourself as a sinner who needs a savior? Are you sincere about that? Do you want to know God and know He has forgiven your sins? Are you sincere about that? If you are sincere about your need of a savior, the let God take care of the believing part. He says in Ephesians 2:8-9 we are saved through faith and that faith is a gift of God.
Do not try to figure this out by yourself. You need to let the Holy Spirit work in your life. Tell God that you want to believe but don't know how and ask Him to show you how to believe.
Give up on yourself and look to God for help. Focus on God showing you whatever it is you need so you can believe, then read about Jesus in the Gospel of John. The truth you need is there, and the Holy Spirit will use that truth to convince you how to believe if you will allow Him to do His work in you.
Don't walk away; don't give up on God; give up on yourself.

Regards,
John

ldonjohn said:

Yes, God does the drawing, and He is drawing you. It is not too late for you. Yes, you are lost and hopeless, but your realizing that is evidence that God is drawing you to believe in Jesus. Do not walk away; if you do then God cannot save you. Satan, the enemy of your soul is also working on you and he wants you to give up and walk away.
You said you don't think you are sincere enough. Well, Elle, do you see yourself as a sinner who needs a savior? Are you sincere about that? Do you want to know God and know He has forgiven your sins? Are you sincere about that? If you are sincere about your need of a savior, the let God take care of the believing part. He says in Ephesians 2:8-9 we are saved through faith and that faith is a gift of God.
Do not try to figure this out by yourself. You need to let the Holy Spirit work in your life. Tell God that you want to believe but don't know how and ask Him to show you how to believe.
Give up on yourself and look to God for help. Focus on God showing you whatever it is you need so you can believe, then read about Jesus in the Gospel of John. The truth you need is there, and the Holy Spirit will use that truth to convince you how to believe if you will allow Him to do His work in you.
Don't walk away; don't give up on God; give up on yourself.

Regards,
John

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The sincerity is the problem. I am not sure that I am sincere about either believing or knowing God. I would imagine that Diana is feeling the same. We have all the facts in our head but God wants the heart. And the heart is the problem.

ldonjohn said:

Diana and Chris,
Many years ago I was where you are now. I doubted the truth of the bible & wasn't sure if God existed, but God was working in me to draw me to become a believer. I tried to make myself believe, but that never worked. I lost count of the many times I said the sinners' prayer begging God to save me while at the same time not being sure if He was real. My life was one of fear, misery, and confusion. I thought I would never know what it meant to "believe" in Jesus.
To make a long story a short one I"ll just say that after many years of living in my misery I gave up on myself and looked to the God who I wasn't even sure existed for help. My problem was that I was focused on myself; on the things "I" was doing to try to believe in Jesus. When I gave up on me and approached God as a hopeless, helpless sinner who was desperate to know how to believe, then God, through His Word & the Holy Spirit opened my blind spiritual eyes and allowed me to see what believing really means. This is believing:
God showed me that when Jesus went to the cross He took my sins with Him and paid the penalty I owed "in full."
The 3rd verse of my favorite hymn "It Is Well with My Soul" says it all:
My sin Oh the bliss of this glorious thought.
My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross and I bare it no more,
Praise the Lord Oh my soul.

When I saw that my sin debt had already been paid then an enormous sense of relief overwhelmed my troubled soul, and at that moment I became a believer. There is more to the story, but that is basically how God brought me out of the darkness of unbelief into the light of His Gospel.
John

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So how do you get to this place? Everyone says "oh, just give up self", but how? People say "just give up and rest in Christ". "Fall into his arms". Where? How? I can't do something that I don't know how to do, or is hidden from me because I am captive to sin. And if I don't figure it out, eternal punishment is ahead. So how does one get to this place you talked about? How does one develop a sincere heart toward God? God must give light, but if I am in willful darkness, He won't give the light. It's a massive Catch-22 that spins round and round forever. I can't figure it out.

Techedtchr said:

So howdo you get to this place? Everyone says "oh, just give up self", but how? People say "just give up and rest in Christ". "Fall into his arms". Where? How? I can't do something that I don't know how to do, or is hidden from me because I am captive to sin. And if I don't figure it out, eternal punishment is ahead. So how does one get to this place you talked about? How does one develop a sincere heart toward God? God must give light, but if I am in willful darkness, He won't give the light. It's a massive Catch-22 that spins round and round forever. I can't figure it out.

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I was once in the same position you are in now. I wanted to know how to believe, but I could not figure it out. I tried to make myself believe, but at the same time I wasn't convinced that the God I was calling out to even existed. I had heard the Gospel preached many times. I did not understand how to get Jesus to come into my heart as I had been told to do, also I had said the sinnners' prayer several times at the church altar, and many times outside of church. The verse in Romans 10:13 "Whosover shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" was confusing to me because I would go the altar and someone there would lead me in a prayer ended "in Jesus name." I could not understand how just saying a prayer "in Jesus name" saved anyone. I had many questions and few or no answers. I was living in dreaded fear & misery. I believed that there was no way to ever know how to really "believe in Jesus."
I had a family and a job, but for several years my #1 concern was how to find the truth about God, the Bible, and believing in Jesus. I continued to read bible tracts, talked to our pastor, listened to preachers on TV and radio, but still found nothing that convinced me of the truth of it all. Yes, I was in church pretending to be a good Christian, but I knew something was missing. I did not know what it was, and I continued to search for it. And yes I was a fake; a miserable fake Christian.
After a period of 4-5 years living in my misery, not finding any answers talking to Christians, reading books and bible tracts, etc. I finally decided that I just could not find the answer I needed that would convince me to believe, and that is the moment I gave up on myself. I was so desperate to know the truth about the matter of "believing" that the moment I decided I could not figure it out myself I looked up at the ceiling, as I lay in bed trying to go to sleep, and said a simple prayer to the God I wasn't sure existed, while hoping He did exist and would hear my prayer. I said "God, will you show me the truth about believing in Jesus?" I went to sleep and slept better that night than I had slept in a long time. Two days later I had my answer, I became a genuine believer, and I found a peace that I still have today 40+ years later. I explained all of this in my testimony posted here on CF.
I am proof that if a person will seek after God in the way He says to do so in Jeremiah 29:13 then he/she will find Him.
You ask if you are sincere enough to believe, and I say if you are sincere enough to admit your sinful condition to God and to seek His way of saving you, and you look to Him for your answer without giving up on Him then He will not disappoint you. If, on the other hand, you give up on God and quit looking to Him for the truth only He can reveal to you then you are not sincere about the matter and will never know how to believe Him.

Sincerely,

John

ldonjohn said:

I was once in the same position you are in now. I wanted to know how to believe, but I could not figure it out. I tried to make myself believe, but at the same time I wasn't convinced that the God I was calling out to even existed. I had heard the Gospel preached many times. I did not understand how to get Jesus to come into my heart as I had been told to do, also I had said the sinnners' prayer several times at the church altar, and many times outside of church. The verse in Romans 10:13 "Whosover shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" was confusing to me because I would go the altar and someone there would lead me in a prayer ended "in Jesus name." I could not understand how just saying a prayer "in Jesus name" saved anyone. I had many questions and few or no answers. I was living in dreaded fear & misery. I believed that there was no way to ever know how to really "believe in Jesus."
I had a family and a job, but for several years my #1 concern was how to find the truth about God, the Bible, and believing in Jesus. I continued to read bible tracts, talked to our pastor, listened to preachers on TV and radio, but still found nothing that convinced me of the truth of it all. Yes, I was in church pretending to be a good Christian, but I knew something was missing. I did not know what it was, and I continued to search for it. And yes I was a fake; a miserable fake Christian.
After a period of 4-5 years living in my misery, not finding any answers talking to Christians, reading books and bible tracts, etc. I finally decided that I just could not find the answer I needed that would convince me to believe, and that is the moment I gave up on myself. I was so desperate to know the truth about the matter of "believing" that the moment I decided I could not figure it out myself I looked up at the ceiling, as I lay in bed trying to go to sleep, and said a simple prayer to the God I wasn't sure existed, while hoping He did exist and would hear my prayer. I said "God, will you show me the truth about believing in Jesus?" I went to sleep and slept better that night than I had slept in a long time. Two days later I had my answer, I became a genuine believer, and I found a peace that I still have today 40+ years later. I explained all of this in my testimony posted here on CF.
I am proof that if a person will seek after God in the way He says to do so in Jeremiah 29:13 then he/she will find Him.
You ask if you are sincere enough to believe, and I say if you are sincere enough to admit your sinful condition to God and to seek His way of saving you, and you look to Him for your answer without giving up on Him then He will not disappoint you. If, on the other hand, you give up on God and quit looking to Him for the truth only He can reveal to you then you are not sincere about the matter and will never know how to believe Him.

Sincerely,

John

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All I can do is get angry. Day by day I hear nothing from God. It's been this way for over a year. I'm angry with God because I was left to rot in my sin. Those He loves He chastises and makes them miserable while living in sin. I am also angry because I cannot force myself to be sincere. Day by day I inch closer to hell, and my wife and children are being influenced by me whether I mean to or not, and my kids are probably being raised to be three little perfect religious hypocrites. How long is God going to let me rot here? You said you were desperate to believe, I don't know if I am. I guess if I have to ask myself that question, I am probably not. I don't even know if I even care about being a Christian. I just know there is eternal punishment ahead, and if something doesn't give, I could also be leading my family there, and I can't imagine what it would be like to have to eternally look at those three little pairs of eyes as they are in anguish. I wish God would bust in, do His thing, and fix me. Just without any involvement on my part, just bust in, give me that new heart of flesh and completely change my perspective. Then it would be done. But how do I get God to move? He's the one that can fix me, but what does it take to get Him to answer? I just hear deafening silence.

ldonjohn said:

I was once in the same position you are in now. I wanted to know how to believe, but I could not figure it out. I tried to make myself believe, but at the same time I wasn't convinced that the God I was calling out to even existed. I had heard the Gospel preached many times. I did not understand how to get Jesus to come into my heart as I had been told to do, also I had said the sinnners' prayer several times at the church altar, and many times outside of church. The verse in Romans 10:13 "Whosover shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" was confusing to me because I would go the altar and someone there would lead me in a prayer ended "in Jesus name." I could not understand how just saying a prayer "in Jesus name" saved anyone. I had many questions and few or no answers. I was living in dreaded fear & misery. I believed that there was no way to ever know how to really "believe in Jesus."
I had a family and a job, but for several years my #1 concern was how to find the truth about God, the Bible, and believing in Jesus. I continued to read bible tracts, talked to our pastor, listened to preachers on TV and radio, but still found nothing that convinced me of the truth of it all. Yes, I was in church pretending to be a good Christian, but I knew something was missing. I did not know what it was, and I continued to search for it. And yes I was a fake; a miserable fake Christian.
After a period of 4-5 years living in my misery, not finding any answers talking to Christians, reading books and bible tracts, etc. I finally decided that I just could not find the answer I needed that would convince me to believe, and that is the moment I gave up on myself. I was so desperate to know the truth about the matter of "believing" that the moment I decided I could not figure it out myself I looked up at the ceiling, as I lay in bed trying to go to sleep, and said a simple prayer to the God I wasn't sure existed, while hoping He did exist and would hear my prayer. I said "God, will you show me the truth about believing in Jesus?" I went to sleep and slept better that night than I had slept in a long time. Two days later I had my answer, I became a genuine believer, and I found a peace that I still have today 40+ years later. I explained all of this in my testimony posted here on CF.
I am proof that if a person will seek after God in the way He says to do so in Jeremiah 29:13 then he/she will find Him.
You ask if you are sincere enough to believe, and I say if you are sincere enough to admit your sinful condition to God and to seek His way of saving you, and you look to Him for your answer without giving up on Him then He will not disappoint you. If, on the other hand, you give up on God and quit looking to Him for the truth only He can reveal to you then you are not sincere about the matter and will never know how to believe Him.

Sincerely,

John

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John, I think what Diana and I are trying to say is that our interest is not sincere. Yours was. From what I can tell, you had an honest hunger to be true and genuine. We cannot say that. We are in a position of rejecting Christ as Lord. We know many things about Him and the good He did, and that He can redeem from eternal hell, but in our hearts are are rejecting Him. And what we are asking is how does one move out of that state and start truly seeking Him? How do we even get the desire to do that? We know we need to seek Him because hell is coming, but also here is where Hebrews 6 comes into play. Hebrews 6 speaks of false professors who turned away. We'll, that fits our position. I listened to a sermon by Colin Smith and the only cure for this position is to stop rejecting Christ and ask Him to save us from our rebellion. The key is in stopping the rejection, or rather, how to get the desire to stop the rejection. Such desire comes from God, and without it, one will continue rejecting God until death. So, where does one go from here? Give up and live like the world, knowing what is coming? Or pray for something I'm not sure I even want? I can't even explain why I'm rejecting Him. I can throw up a billion and one things, but I seem divorced from my own heart. I don't know what's in there. I know what I have to do but how to do it or even the desire to do it is missing. All I know is that He is silent and I am getting harder. Am I wasting my time? Do I even have a chance that I could ever become truly converted? Do I even want to be?

diana092086 said:

Chris said we know what to do - we need to come to Him but just not sure if our desire to come to Him is genuine. I feel like I'm trying to come to Him because that's i what i learned we are to do. You and other Christians seemed to have just gone to Him and said, "here i am. Save me, change me," without learning that's what you had to do. It was genuinely from your heart. I think what I'm doing is just something that is rehearsed, learned and not from my heart. I think it's too late to be genuine and sincere since i already know what I'm supposed to do.


I believe you had the Holy Spirit leading you to do what you did. I don't think he's leading me. I believe it's the knowledge in my head leading me. I know I'm a sinner and need Jesus based on facts in my head but not because it was revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. I really think I'm still deaf and blind even though i know the facts. It's really weird. I think I've tried to open my own eyes and i have but then i just can't bring myself to Him. I can't bring myself to surrender. It's just been me in my flesh without the Holy Spirit. I think this is my punishment. I know too much for my own good. More knowledge, more sorrow. I don't deserve to be saved so i think God will say, "see how sinful you people could be...this is my punishment for your rebellion. She wanted to know so much, so i let her learn, i let her be her own god, and now she's in hell." That's what i see God saying one day.

I've had moments in my life where I've been really down but didn't turn to God for help. I thought i already was a believer and that was just a part of life. Or, I've been okay with life, taking care of myself that i didn't see that i had a need for God. I never thought of going to Him. I honestly don't know if i would go to Him had i not learned we're supposed to. I think i would have tried to make the best of the situation and accept things as they are. I really think I've been blind and am a child of the devil.

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Techedtchr said:

All I can do is get angry. Day by day I hear nothing from God. It's been this way for over a year. I'm angry with God because I was left to rot in my sin. Those He loves He chastises and makes them miserable while living in sin. I am also angry because I cannot force myself to be sincere. Day by day I inch closer to hell, and my wife and children are being influenced by me whether I mean to or not, and my kids are probably being raised to be three little perfect religious hypocrites. How long is God going to let me rot here? You said you were desperate to believe, I don't know if I am. I guess if I have to ask myself that question, I am probably not. I don't even know if I even care about being a Christian. I just know there is eternal punishment ahead, and if something doesn't give, I could also be leading my family there, and I can't imagine what it would be like to have to eternally look at those three little pairs of eyes as they are in anguish. I wish God would bust in, do His thing, and fix me. Just without any involvement on my part, just bust in, give me that new heart of flesh and completely change my perspective. Then it would be done. But how do I get God to move? He's the one that can fix me, but what does it take to get Him to answer? I just hear deafening silence.

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The only suggestion I have for you is that you do the same thing I did many years ago, and that is tell God you want to believe in Him and ask Him to help you.
Then you can show Him you mean business with Him by reading His Word. I found Him in the Book of John. Romans is another book I would suggest. Read until you find your answer, do not quit. It might take you a long time or it might not; I can't say. If you give up and quit then you will be saying to God that you are not sincere about knowing Him. Do it like your life depends on it; and your family's life.
John

I am not sure I believe what I am writing but I am going to try. Diana, we are making idols of our despair. We are usurping the role of God by declaring ourselves as unsavable. That is His sole right. We need to let Him determine whether we are sincere or not. Our role is to lay hold of Him and give Him no rest until He blesses us. The main thing is not the outward sins but the inward attitude. We need Him to change that. It is our role to seek Him for the change we need. We are not to look to the change but to Him to provide the change. We will know He is answering when the change starts to occur inside. He is likely to hold off for a while to see if we are really willing to seek Him for an extended period. It is our role to, until our dying breaths, beg Him to grant that we can turn to Him. Do your best to believe and try to keep this up even if it feels like it is going nowhere. As to the motivation to stop sinning, think about what our sins did to Jesus. Imagine how your mom would feel if she was making breakfast for you and you punched her. That's probably something of what Jesus feels when we sin. His anger comes from the pain of rejection (I think). Think long and hard about the love Jesus felt for us and the pain He felt when His own cursed and spit at Him. Vessel of wrath or not, He made you and me. I would like to think that God would not lightly throw out someone He made. I can anticipate what you are going to say because I have many of these thoughts as I am writing this. But repeating our problem over and over will not solve it. We need to find the solution. The solution is Jesus. Even while we were ungodly, He died to save sinners. We are sinners. So He died for us. Believe that as strongly as you can and go to Him night and day for the rest of your life. That's what I'll do, will you? Perhaps as an exercise in getting out of self, will you go to Him on my behalf when you pray and I will go for you as I do?

Techedtchr said:

I am not sure I believe what I am writing but I am going to try. Diana, we are making idols of our despair. We are usurping the role of God by declaring ourselves as unsavable. That is His sole right. We need to let Him determine whether we are sincere or not. Our role is to lay hold of Him and give Him no rest until He blesses us. The main thing is not the outward sins but the inward attitude. We need Him to change that. It is our role to seek Him for the change we need. We are not to look to the change but to Him to provide the change. We will know He is answering when the change starts to occur inside. He is likely to hold off for a while to see if we are really willing to seek Him for an extended period. It is our role to, until our dying breaths, beg Him to grant that we can turn to Him. Do your best to believe and try to keep this up even if it feels like it is going nowhere. As to the motivation to stop sinning, think about what our sins did to Jesus. Imagine how your mom would feel if she was making breakfast for you and you punched her. That's probably something of what Jesus feels when we sin. His anger comes from the pain of rejection (I think). Think long and hard about the love Jesus felt for us and the pain He felt when His own cursed and spit at Him. Vessel of wrath or not, He made you and me. I would like to think that God would not lightly throw out someone He made. I can anticipate what you are going to say because I have many of these thoughts as I am writing this. But repeating our problem over and over will not solve it. We need to find the solution. The solution is Jesus. Even while we were ungodly, He died to save sinners. We are sinners. So He died for us. Believe that as strongly as you can and go to Him night and day for the rest of your life. That's what I'll do, will you? Perhaps as an exercise in getting out of self, will you go to Him on my behalf when you pray and I will go for you as I do?

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WOW! Praise God you made that decision. You will not regret it.
Just in case you might want to either read or watch some video of a well known minister explain God's way of saving us, I am listing 4 links below.
The videos are about 30min each or you can read the script which is below each video. The 3rd one I believe will have answers more specific to your questions, but all 4 of them are very good. I have watched them myself and have referred them to many people who are seeking answers just like you are.

1. How Can You Be Sure that You Will Spend Eternity with God?/Program 1 | John Ankerberg Show

2.How Can You Be Sure that You Will Spend Eternity with God?/Program 2 | John Ankerberg Show

3.How Can You Be Sure that You Will Spend Eternity with God?/Program 3 | John Ankerberg Show

4.How Can You Be Sure that You Will Spend Eternity with God?/Program 4 | John Ankerberg Show

John

ldonjohn said:

WOW! Praise God you made that decision. You will not regret it.
Just in case you might want to either read or watch some video of a well known minister explain God's way of saving us, I am listing 4 links below.
The videos are about 30min each or you can read the script which is below each video. The 3rd one I believe will have answers more specific to your questions, but all 4 of them are very good. I have watched them myself and have referred them to many people who are seeking answers just like you are.

1. How Can You Be Sure that You Will Spend Eternity with God?/Program 1 | John Ankerberg Show

2.How Can You Be Sure that You Will Spend Eternity with God?/Program 2 | John Ankerberg Show

3.How Can You Be Sure that You Will Spend Eternity with God?/Program 3 | John Ankerberg Show

4.How Can You Be Sure that You Will Spend Eternity with God?/Program 4 | John Ankerberg Show

John

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I wouldn't get too excited. I'm not 100% sure if I really am going to Him or not. I'm just praying and hoping for the best. That's going to Him as best I know. I may not really be going to Him. But I will as much as I know. It's up to Him what happens.