The Other Premillennialism

Andrewn said:

Most people are quite familiar with dispensational Premillennialism. They may even consider it standard Christianity even though the name may be obscure to them. I'm not interested in this form of Premillennialism. I already know too much about it.

What I'm interested in learning more about is other forms of Premillennialism such as Historic Premillennialism and Adventist Premillennialism.

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Historic premil would typically apply to the premil prior to dispen premil which appeared in the 19th century. Other than the difference in interpretation of the millennium (premil a literal earthly 1,000 years, amil a spiritual symbolic 1,000 years), historic premil is doctrinally much closer to amil than to dispen premil.

Andrewn said: ↑
Most people are quite familiar with dispensational Premillennialism. They may even consider it standard Christianity even though the name may be obscure to them. I'm not interested in this form of Premillennialism. I already know too much about it.
What I'm interested in learning more about is other forms of Premillennialism such as Historic Premillennialism and Adventist Premillennialism.

Click to expand...

jgr said:

Historic premil would typically apply to the premil prior to dispen premil which appeared in the 19th century. Other than the difference in interpretation of the millennium (premil a literal earthly 1,000 years, amil a spiritual symbolic 1,000 years), historic premil is doctrinally much closer to amil than to dispen premil.

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Andrewn said:

I think the main difference between amil and historic premil is the war of Gog & Magog at end of the Millennium followed by resurrection of the wicked. In amil, all this happens at the second coming of Christ.

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Hello Andrewn.

There is only 1 Parousia/Day of the Lord in the Bible.

There are some within orthodox Christianity that view 2 parousias.....not sure how they get around that.

2 "Parousias" according to Partial Preterism......

Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

70ad:
A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age
(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days)

Still future:
The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history
==========================
Then there are some that view Armageddon/Gog Magog as the same event.
That appears to be probable.........
If one looks at the Greek for the 2 separate events below, you can see they are practically identical...

Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event?

Revelation 16:
14 For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which are going-out upon the kings of the whold home-land<3625>,
to-be-together-leading/mobilizing/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of the great Day of the God the Almighty.
16 And they together-leading/mobilize/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddon<717>

Revelation 20:8
and he shall be coming out<1831> to deceive<4105> the nations, the ones in the Four Corners of the land, the Gog and Magog,
to be together-leading/mobilizing/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle, of which the Number of them as the Sand<285> of the Se<2281>a.[Ezekiel 7:1-2]

Armegeddon and Gog-magog same event?

1. 
   I view them as the same event
   16 vote(s)
   22.9%
2. I view them as different events
   43 vote(s)
   61.4%
3. I am not sure
   7 vote(s)
   10.0%
4. Does it really matter?
   4 vote(s)
   5.7%

Andrewn said:

In amil, all this happens at the second coming of Christ.

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Yet Revelation 20:4 tends to prove Amils can't be correct about that.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In my mind, what I have underlined above is a huge clue as to the timing of the 1000 years. When comparing that to the events in Revelation 13, this tells me that the events in Revelation 13 are when these martyrs in Revelation 20:4 met their physical deaths in this age. IOW during the 42 month reign of the beast.

As to the thousand years, there is before the thousand years, during the thousand years, and after the thousand years. Revelation 20:4 places the 42 month reign of the beast before the beginning of the thousand years, and since the 42 month reign of the beast involves satan's participation, we therefore know it can't be during the thousand years while satan is bound in the pit. We also know it can't be after the thousand years if Revelation 20:4 is already placing it before that time. What does that leave as the only other choice? The 42 month reign of the beast precedes the beginning of the thousand years.

All Premils and most all Amils agree the 42 month reign of the beast ends with the 2nd coming of Christ. That should tell anyone, that if that is the case, that places the beginning of the thousand years as of Christ's return. Therefore, the war of Gog & Magog at end of the Millennium couldn't possibly occur at the 2nd coming.

And since Amils insist on placing the thousand years in this age, regardless, that would mean they would also need to place the 42 month reign of the beast as having had already happened 2000 years ago, the fact the 42 month reign of the beast only fits before the beginning of the thousand years. And since Amils typically place the beginning of the thousand years around the time of the cross, that would mean the 42 month reign of the beast was taking place while Christ was still present on the earth, which of course is totally illogical.

Amils of course don't place the 42 month reign there, they illogically place it after the thousand years, thus contradicting what I initially underlined in Revelation 20:4 above. So either way their position is not logical, thus contradicts Revelation 20:4 for one.

DavidPT said:

Therefore, the war of Gog & Magog at end of the Millennium couldn't possibly occur at the 2nd coming.

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I do not agree with everything the author below says, but overall he has the Gog Magog war of Revelation 20 correct.
He shows it is another vision of the battle of Armageddon.

Gog of Magog - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy

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BABerean2 said:

, but overall he has the Gog Magog war of Revelation 20 correct.

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Unless I am missing something here, that means you agree with Premil then. Notice what the author said at the end of that article.

Therefore, we can be certain that the battle of Gog/Magog–Armageddon is the final major rebellion of the nations against God before the start of the Millennium. Gog of Magog - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy

It doesn't look like to me that author thinks the battle of Gog/Magog in Revelation 20 is what he is referring to here if he has this battle preceding the start of the millennium. The battle of Gog/Magog in Revelation 20 is after the millennium, not prior to it.

And besides, the author makes his view crystal clear when he said this in that article-----

Once Yeshua has returned and defeated the armies of Gog, the official beginning of the millennial reign of the Messiah will begin. It will be a golden age not only for Israel, but for the entire world.Gog of Magog - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy


If that's not Premil, what is it then? BTW, I agree with you, he does indeed have the Gog Magog war of Revelation 20 correct, the fact he's obviously placing that event after the 2nd coming, after the thousand years.

DavidPT said:

Unless I am missing something here, that means you agree with Premil then. Notice what the author said at the end of that article.

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That is the part I do not agree with, because it cannot be true based on the rest of his article. The rest of his article proves that the battle of Armageddon is the battle of Gog, and Magog. Therefore, his conclusion does not match the rest of his article.

The timing of Revelation 20 is revealed by when the fire comes in the chapter.
Based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God.
The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, the fire comes on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief".
The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

The timing of Revelation 20 is also revealed by the timing of the judgment of the dead, when "the book of life" is read.
Based on 2 Timothy 4:1, the time of the judgement of both the living and the dead is at the appearing of Christ.
Christ said "all" the dead will be judged in the same "hour" in John 5:27-30.
The "time of the judgment of the dead" is found in Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
The time of the judgment of the dead is at the end of Revelation chapter 20.


Php_4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.



Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


The only way to make the premill doctrine work is by claiming that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, and by ignoring the scripture found in the rest of the New Testament.
At one time I believed the premill doctrine, but had to give it up based on other passages I could no longer ignore.

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Let's look at Revelation 20:4 again.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


I am specifically referring to only this in that verse---that's all my point is concerned with, nothing else---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

Let's now look at Revelation 13.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Until all of these things are fulfilled first, there cannot yet be any martyrs in Revelation 20:4 who were martyred because they had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

Of course there have been martyrs throughout history, even before the time of the mark. As to the timing of the mark, that occurs during the 42 month reign of the beast though, and not throughout all of history instead. It's ludicrous that the 42 months could be representing that huge amount of time. The 42 month reign belongs at the end of the age and leads to the 2nd coming.


Take note of what I underlined above in verses 14-16. How can there possibly be the fulfillment of the following in Revelation 20:4----and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---prior to the fulfilling of what I have underlined in verses 14-16? And where does Revelation 20:4 place the martyrdom of the saints via the beast? Does it not place it before the thousand years even end? Shouldn't that tell us the 42 month reign of the beast can't possibly fit after the thousand if that reign already precedes that time according to Revelation 20:4?

Andrewn said:

No, you haven't proved this. The rest of your message assumes that Amil are stupid and that you caught their illogical conclusions but you didn't.

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You apparently didn't grasp a single point I was trying to make then. I don't assume Amils are stupid, that's plain silly. They are just not reasoning it like I am is all. They are not taking into consideration some of the things I am, such as what I went into more detail in this post.

And while it's on my mind, thought I should clarify the following just in case. And no this does not mean I think you are stupid either, because IMO you didn't grasp my points. There's numerous times when others' points go over my head. I don't see why that would have to make me necessarily stupid though.

I simply showed how Revelation 20:4 coupled with Revelation 13 proves that the 42 month reign cannot happen after the the thousand years, something that Amil relies on in order for their position to be valid. Keeping in mind, the 42 month reign of the beast has to end with the 2nd coming. Even the majority of Amils at least agree with that. But how can the 42 month reign of the beast end with the 2nd coming, per Amil's take on these things, when Revelation 20:4 is showing, thus undeniably proving, that the the 42 month reign of the beast is already fulfilled and in the past when the thousand years are over?

Andrewn said:

But I have no intention of defending Amil.

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You could have fooled me then, based on your replies above.

Being a partial preterist, I believe 1st century Jerusalem is showing in Revelation [or it could be future Jerusalem?]

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The Millennial Maze by Keith Mathison

Historic Premillennialism

Historic premillennialism teaches that at the end of the present age, there will be the great tribulation followed by the second coming of Christ. At Christ’s coming, the Antichrist will be judged, the righteous will be resurrected, Satan will be bound, and Christ will establish His reign on earth, which will last for a thousand years and be a time of unprecedented blessing for the church. At the end of the millennium, Satan will be released and he will instigate a rebellion, which will be quickly crushed. The unrighteous will at this point be raised for judgment, after which the eternal state will begin.

Historic premillennialism has had its proponents in the church from at least the second century AD onward. It was taught, for example, by Irenaeus (140– 203) and Justin Martyr (100–165), and may have been taught in the late first century by Papias (80–155). Some within the Reformed tradition, such as James Montgomery Boice, have taught this view. The most notable proponent of historic premillennialism in the twentieth century was George Eldon Ladd, whose commentary on the book of Revelation argues strongly for this position.

Dispensational Premillennialism

Dispensational premillennialism offers the most complex chronology of the end times. According to dispensationalism, the current church age will end with the rapture of the church, which, along with the appearance of the Antichrist, marks the beginning of the seven-year great tribulation on earth. The tribulation will end with the battle of Armageddon, in the midst of which Christ will return to destroy His enemies. The nations will then be gathered for judgment. Those who supported Israel will enter into Christ’s millennial kingdom, and the rest will be cast into Hades to await the last judgment. Christ will sit on the throne of David and rule the world from Jerusalem. Israel will be given the place of honor among the nations again. The temple will have been rebuilt and the temple sacrifices will be reinstituted as memorial sacrifices. At the end of the millennium, Satan will be released and lead unbelievers in rebellion against Christ and the New Jerusalem. The rebellion will be crushed by fire from heaven, and Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. The wicked will be brought before the Great White Throne, judged, and cast into the lake of fire, and at this point the eternal state will commence.

The dispensationalist version of premillennialism originated in the nineteenth century within the Brethren Movement. Its distinctives first appear in the writings of John Nelson Darby (1800–1882). Dispensational premillennialism caught on rapidly in the United States through the Bible Conference Movement. It was popularized by C.I. Scofield in the notes to his reference Bible and was systematized by Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary and the author of an eight-volume dispensational systematic theology text. In the twentieth century, this view was taught on a more scholarly level by men such as John Walvoord, Charles Ryrie, and J. Dwight Pentecost, and it was popularized by authors such as Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye.

Postmillennialism

Postmillennialism teaches that the “thousand years” of Revelation 20 occur prior to the second coming of Christ. Until recently, most postmillennialists taught that the millennium would be the last thousand years of the present age. Today, many postmillennialists teach that the millennial age is the entire period of time between Christ’s first and second advents. As we will see, this means that contemporary versions of postmillennialism are very close in many ways to contemporary amillennialism. The main difference between the two is not so much the timing of the millennium as the nature of the millennium. In general, postmillennialism teaches that in the present age, the Holy Spirit will draw unprecedented multitudes to Christ through the faithful preaching of the gospel. Among the multitudes who will be converted are the ethnic Israelites who have thus far rejected the Messiah. At the end of the present age, Christ will return, there will be a general resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment will take place.

Postmillennialism was widely held among the Puritans. It was also the dominant view among Reformed theologians of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. It was taught, for example, by men such as Jonathan Edwards, Charles Hodge, James Henley Thornwell, A.A. Hodge, and B.B. Warfield. Because liberals adopted a humanistic version of this eschatology, postmillennialism suffered a decline in the twentieth century, but it has seen a resurgence in the last twenty to thirty years. Books supporting this view have been published by men such as Loraine Boettner, J. Marcellus Kik, Kenneth Gentry, John Jefferson Davis, and myself.

Amillennialism

Amillennialism sees Revelation 20 as a description of the reign of Christ with the saints throughout the entire present age. Some amillennialists emphasize the reign of Christ with the saints in heaven, while others teach that this reign is also connected with the church militant here on earth. Amillennialists tend to argue that the growth of Christ’s kingdom has few if any visible manifestations. The focus is more on the suffering that Christ has indicated the church will undergo. According to amillennialism, the present millennial age, which is characterized by suffering, will be followed by the second coming of Christ, the general resurrection, the last judgment, and the new heavens and new earth.

Amillennialism also has its origin in the early church. Augustine (354–430) taught a version of amillennialism that influenced the church throughout the Middle Ages and into the Reformation. Within the Reformed tradition, the contemporary version of amillennialism began to distinguish itself from older forms of postmillennialism in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. The nineteenth-century theologian Herman Bavinck, for example, was a staunch proponent of amillennialism. In the twentieth century, the view has been taught by Reformed theologians such as Geerhardus Vos, Louis Berkhof, Anthony Hoekema, Cornelis Venema, Kim Riddlebarger, and Sam Storms. Some contemporary amillennialists do not like the term amillennialism because the prefix a- literally means “no,” so amillennialism literally means “no millennium.” One amillennialist, Jay Adams, has suggested the term “realized millennialism” instead.

Conclusion

Those versions of postmillennialism that recognize the millennium to be symbolic of the entire present age differ in only a few respects from amillennialism. Historic premillennialists, such as George Ladd, who understand that the kingdom of Christ has already been inaugurated in connection with the events of Christ’s first advent are closer than they may realize to these forms of postmillennialism and amillennialism. All of us should take the time to understand the views of those with whom we differ and understand the biblical arguments they use. We may not agree yet. There is much more exegetical work to be done before any hope of consensus is possible, but the work being done by biblical and systematic theologians should encourage us. Despite the remaining disagreements, we can rejoice that we all agree that Jesus is risen and that He has been given all authority in heaven and on earth.
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Reve 16:17 the seventh Messenger pours out His bowl/vial into the AIR....

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

Andrewn said:

Most people are quite familiar with dispensational Premillennialism. They may even consider it standard Christianity even though the name may be obscure to them. I'm not interested in this form of Premillennialism. I already know too much about it.

What I'm interested in learning more about is other forms of Premillennialism such as Historic Premillennialism and Adventist Premillennialism.

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You can do no better than the writings of George Ladd. I am Amill myself but credit where credit is due. Ladd is the champion of historic premillennialism.

SDA is historicist but they adapt certain bits in order to promote some of their theories.