Is the Sabbath everywhere on the seventh day of the week as it was in Eden?

Which is most correct?

  • The first Sabbath was from morning to morning

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  • Israel remembers the first Sabbath at a different time

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  • From morning to evening is the half a day period God called day

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  • From evening to morning is the half a day period God called night

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • From evening to evening in Israel is not a local day of the week

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • All of the above

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
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Bro. Dave Gardner

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Well, Jesus did fulfill all that He came to do. He is, after all, God. God doesn't do anything halfway now, does He?
But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.
1 Corinthians 14:40
 
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Bob S

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But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.
1 Corinthians 14:40
I guess you are arguing that He didn't fulfill all He came to do. Is that correct? Maybe you should reconsider.

Matt5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. He came to fulfill the Law and the prophets. According to some who insist we have to keep the old covenant Sabbath, Jesus didn't do what He came to do. I know better than that. The dictionary explanation for the word fulfill is to bring to an end. Paul, in Gal3:19 says Jesus fulfilled the Law. Paul wrote that the 10 commandments have been done away. 2Cor3:6-11 KJV.
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.


Ephesians2:15 He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace,
Why would Paul write those verses if Jesus didn't fulfill the Law?
 
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Bro. Dave Gardner

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I guess you are arguing that He didn't fulfill all He came to do.
You couldn't be more wrong in your guessing. I believe Hid did, without question, fulfill everything He came to fulfill. Exactly what it was He came to fulfill seems to be at a loss for consensus among forum members. Your judgment appears to be above questioning or dispute. Personally, I distrust myself to read minds or to dictate across others' liberty of conscience.
 
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Bob S

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You couldn't be more wrong in your guessing. I believe Hid did, without question, fulfill everything He came to fulfill. Exactly what it was He came to fulfill seems to be at a loss for consensus among forum members. Your judgment appears to be above questioning or dispute. Personally, I distrust myself to read minds or to dictate across others' liberty of conscience.
So sorry about my guessing. I couldn't understand why you would use 1Cor14:40 as a related verse, so I determined you were, in some way, in opposition. Most are here on this forum.

By the way, welcome and I hope you stay around and add what you have gleaned to the issues.
 
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Bro. Dave Gardner

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Peter said Paul was hard to understand. That was Peter's opinion.
So scripture is inspired opinion?
2Cor 3 is not, in the least hard to understand.
Correct, unless one is unstable and unlearned, and tending toward destruction.
the 10 commandments have been done away KJV and our guide is the Holy Spirit.
I'll bet the remote missionaries really wish that were true.
They are about duty.
Wait, I thought they were the ministration of death.
Read Gal5 and then tell me that the 10 the definition of God's love to us.
There is no need to read Galatians, ch. 5 to deduce that a good way to love your neighbor is to refrain from lying, killing, stealing, coveting, etc. or that a good way to love God is to respect His Name, refrain from preferring idols over Him and disregarding the Holy day He said to remember and observe.
the old covenant ended at Calvary.
I wonder why the Gospel of Luke which is believed to have been authored (at earliest estimates) over 45 years after Calvary (well into the new covenant era) records, without any qualification or disclaimer, that the followers of Christ, upon laying His body to rest, went home and kept the Sabbath according to the commandment.
There is about 20 places in the New Testament that either says God's commands or the commandments of God. Not one of them have ten associated with them.
Yes, and there are only 3 times in the Bible where the words "ten" and "commandments" are coupled together at all. Are we then to assume that this is the precision gage with which we are to measure the importance of the ten commandments among the roughly 600,000 words which comprise the Old Testament?
Not every thought or idea found in scripture is God-inspired.
This is a dire dilemma. We are now left to pick and choose what is inspired and what is not.

Every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,
2 Timothy 3:16 Young's Literal Translation

This is, practically speaking, -GAME OVER- in a conversation about the Christian faith.
All that is left to do is to choose your heresy. How tragic.
.
 
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Bob S

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So scripture is inspired opinion?
Peter didn't understand Jesus, so it would stand to reason that he had a hard time with Paul's writings. I have no reason to believe that what Peter said was inspired just as I don't believe when Paul wrote: "I say....".
Correct, unless one is unstable and unlearned, and tending toward destruction.
According to your following statement, you would fit into one of the categories.
I'll bet the remote missionaries really wish that were true.
And you don't? What does "done away" mean to you?

Wait, I thought they were the ministration of death.
Take that up with Paul. He wrote it and, of course, He was inspired, I hope you at least can agree on that. Keep them all you want, but they cannot give eternal life. All they could do is condemn when they were broken thus they were the ministration of death.

There is no need to read Galatians, ch. 5 to deduce that a good way to love your neighbor is to refrain from lying, killing, stealing, coveting, etc.
Oh! so should Gal 5 be removed from scripture? Gal 5 listed some of the etc that you mentioned that are not included in the now-defunct 10 commandments.

or that a good way to love God is to respect His Name, refrain from preferring idols over Him and disregarding the Holy day He said to remember and observe.
Jesus fulfilled the Law, all of it including the 4th commandment of the defunct 10. The new covenant laws are all about loving others as Jesus loves us. That includes laying down our lives for others. That command in its self supersedes any of the 10.

I wonder why the Gospel of Luke which is believed to have been authored (at earliest estimates) over 45 years after Calvary (well into the new covenant era) records, without any qualification or disclaimer, that the followers of Christ, upon laying His body to rest, went home and kept the Sabbath according to the commandment.
So???? Paul kept the feast days, does that make it necessary for Christians?

Yes, and there are only 3 times in the Bible where the words "ten" and "commandments" are coupled together at all. Are we then to assume that this is the precision gage with which we are to measure the importance of the ten commandments among the roughly 600,000 words which comprise the Old Testament?
Why wouldn't those under that covenant not understand that the 10 were part of the Law they were under? The New Covenant isn't about the same things as was the old one. In all of New Testament scripture, we will not find one place where there is a ten before commandments and assuming such is adding to the meaning of scripture. That becomes very plain when we read 1Jn3:19-24. It doesn't mention the keeping of days, weeks months or years. It is about eternal life for all mankind. According to John, it is all about believing and love. The old one was about how the Israelites were to live in the desert and then in the land of Canaan. See Ex19:5-6.

This is a dire dilemma. We are now left to pick and choose what is inspired and what is not.
I am sorry it has become such a strain on your brain.
 
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Greengardener

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Ouch, guys! Put your swords down and breathe! I have to admit in reading through this, I've uttered "touche" with frequency as you each make really good points. But be careful with your swords, dear ones. They are for dividing soul and marrow in the innermost parts (of ourselves) and not for chopping each other up.

So where the rubber meets the road: when we face that day when Jesus separates out the groups, where will we find ourselves? Jorge isn't responsible for where Bob finds himself, or where I find myself. In all honesty, I don't remember reading that He separates out those who have particular doctrinal alignments to accept some and refuse others, but I do know that He said that His law is perfect, converting our souls and that His word provides light in the dark places we walk, and the separation He illustrated had to do with what we did with our choices. If it was indeed true that Jesus and His Father are one, then Jesus is the one who gave the law in the first place. Keeping His commandments is the least we can do, and do as best as we can, in honoring Him because His precepts will help us live the right way that He wants. It seems every law I've read points to the righteousness of God (although I haven't counted to make sure I've caught all 613 of them that Bob mentions). I can say that if you look at every single one, they are all do-able and sensible, and even though we don't have them as rules in our lives now, the wisdom behind every one of them is irrefutable. They speak to holy living, clean living, separating out best from not best, showing all kinds of administrations of the basic tenets of the Big 10. Jesus was right in that all the law and the prophets hang on those 10. Isn't it in our pride that we reject the life-giving words of God, whether found in the old or new sections of the Scriptures? There may be gain in arguing but what is the gain in disdaining?

Remember Jeremiah 9/24: that is what God wants us to know about Him - His lovingkindness, mercy, and judgement.

Judgement: Jesus "fleshed out" the law for us, showing us the righteousness of God's good plan for us and by Him, the Son of Man, there will be a final judgement. Are we in Him? Well, are we acting like Him? Are we following Him? Would He lead us down a path He didn't demonstrate? Are we adding all diligence to be holy as He is holy? Are we obeying Him? We needn't fear it if we are in Him and keeping His commandments. He would have told us if He was changing the rules. This was too big a deal for us to have to figure out major changes to the thousands of years of God saying the same thing to His people. New covenant? Yes, a new break, a new Let's Make a Deal - "I will if you will" offered by the LORD God. If you will make His soul and offering for sin...there is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (God's "I will") who walk not after the flesh (self will?) but after the Spirit (if we will obey the laws the Spirit is writing in our hearts). Jesus hardly needed the cleansing of baptism, but He fulfilled it to show us that we should too. I take the same stance with the Sabbath. He is and was our rest long before we saw Him walk on earth, and He kept the Sabbath. So did the early believers. He ate clean food, so I follow His example because He could have told us if the sheet He was going to show Peter really meant food choices when Peter clearly related it to mean the gentiles. If Jesus kept the Leviticus 23 God-appointed times, I do too, and the evidence is there that Paul addressed the gentile churches with an understanding that they also did.

Mercy: Where we could not attain the holy standard of a perfect life, Jesus paid the penalty of our lawlessness - not so we could continue to sin but so we could walk in the newness of His life - a life that keeps His law from the heart. We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to righteousness. How do we define righteousness? All your commandments are righteousness. Ps 119. 172 and Ps 19.8. In reading those commandments, that's what I see. That the law had an opportunity for tying up ourselves in our bondage to every stroke of the pen and making checklists to approve ourselves as better than others and showing contempt for others is definitely there. But when you take all that away and see those laws as a standard God was showing for me alone, when it's just me and God, then I become the publican and cease being Pharisee praying thus with himself. I cry out, God, be merciful - Your standards are beautiful and I seem to fall short so often! Jesus answers, Yes, that's why I died. I put my trust in Him and find He works His willingness to keep His standards into my very heart.

Lovingkindness: Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us that we should be called the sons of God! Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God. He who does not love does not know God.

We're all in this together, so let us love and encourage each other. Keep up the good discussion but remember that the people you are addressing are made in the image of God same as you are. You don't want to be found disdaining one for whom Christ died. You all have a part to add as a member of His body. Let's not have any surgical dissections here, OK?
 
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Bro. Dave Gardner

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Peter didn't understand Jesus, so it would stand to reason that he had a hard time with Paul's writings. I have no reason to believe that what Peter said was inspired just as I don't believe when Paul wrote: "I say....".

According to your following statement, you would fit into one of the categories.

And you don't? What does "done away" mean to you?

Take that up with Paul. He wrote it and, of course, He was inspired, I hope you at least can agree on that. Keep them all you want, but they cannot give eternal life. All they could do is condemn when they were broken thus they were the ministration of death.

Oh! so should Gal 5 be removed from scripture? Gal 5 listed some of the etc that you mentioned that are not included in the now-defunct 10 commandments.

Jesus fulfilled the Law, all of it including the 4th commandment of the defunct 10. The new covenant laws are all about loving others as Jesus loves us. That includes laying down our lives for others. That command in its self supersedes any of the 10.

So???? Paul kept the feast days, does that make it necessary for Christians?

Why wouldn't those under that covenant not understand that the 10 were part of the Law they were under? The New Covenant isn't about the same things as was the old one. In all of New Testament scripture, we will not find one place where there is a ten before commandments and assuming such is adding to the meaning of scripture. That becomes very plain when we read 1Jn3:19-24. It doesn't mention the keeping of days, weeks months or years. It is about eternal life for all mankind. According to John, it is all about believing and love. The old one was about how the Israelites were to live in the desert and then in the land of Canaan. See Ex19:5-6.

I am sorry it has become such a strain on your brain.

I'm not any more anxious to fixate upon the coupling of words such as "done" and "away" than I am of "ten" and "commandments." I'm not looking for a scrumptious buffet item. I'm trying to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Perhaps that seems clichéd to some, but it is a rather unambiguous command of the Lord.

A tenacious obsession with shiny parts of 2 Corinthians, Ch. 3 does not a convincing argument make. The chapter is not about the nullification of the ten (there's that word again--conspicuous by its absence here but ironically exempt from the hermeneutic stronghold in this case) commandments, but of their inability to atone for their violation.

Whatever "done away" does mean, it is clear that that which was "done away" was glorious (2 Corinthians 3:7-11) and was part of a perfect whole (1 Corinthians 13:10). It appears that the language used is for the purpose of contrast (good/better, like the theme of the book of Hebrews) and not polar opposition (trash/treasure).

As far as judging inspiration by selected phrases such as "I say...," that is a rabbit hole the depths of which I will never be found plumbing. Therefore your regrets regarding my mental health are, I assure you, misplaced. However, I do find much of your attempted, hardly-clever wordsmithing teetering between amusing and obnoxious and, in any case, combative and lacking in Christian charity.

I did not suggest jettisoning "Gal 5" and I suspect that you fully well know that.

We obviously do not agree on the inspiration of the writings of Paul, as indicated plainly in your "I say..." quid pro quo. His keeping of feast days would not constitute a positive command for other Christians to do so unless we're eager to cite some other scripture out of context.

Christ gives no positive command for Christians to lay down their lives for others. Again, more hardly-clever wordsmithing. No doubt, you will cite 1 John 3:16 here but, please note, this is not a "commandment," and in keeping with your school of inspiration/interpretation, how can we be certain that the Beloved Disciple is not here merely expressing his own opinion? Or was he exempt from ever misunderstanding Christ's words, unlike (according, it seems, to the reckoning of some) poor Peter--Apostle, Second-Class. A tangled web, to be sure.

To be clear, my purpose here is not to dispute or convince you of error, but merely to attempt to counter your influence on those who might be sincerely searching for truth. I bear you no ill will, but you do seem firmly entrenched in your error and openly hostile to those who oppose your antinomianist views, and I have no problem with acknowledging that, whatever your reaction. I am not intimidated whatsoever by theological bullying. Of that, you may be certain.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The Bible shows me that In Israel, the Sabbath is not the seventh day of the week as it was in Eden. Genesis 1:3-5 shows that the first day is from light to light or from morning to morning
With a false premise, the truth won't be arrived at....
 
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guevaraj

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With a false premise, the truth won't be arrived at....
Brother, the first day ends in the "morning" making the next day start in the "morning", the word "morning" is a transition word between two periods: the morning ends the night of the previous day and the light of the next day begins. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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guevaraj

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Again a false premise..... nothing can be built upon a false premise..... It will just fall down same as on quicksand ....
Brother, the light is from morning to evening that God called day, the 12 hours of light of the first half of 24 hours, and the "first day" of 24 hours ends with the second half from evening to morning that God called night, the 12 hours of darkness.

God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day. (Genesis 1:5 NIV)​

The period between an "evening" and a "morning" that ended the first day is not 24 hours, that period is only the night half a day period of 12 hours that completed the first day that began before this sentence with a period of light from morning to evening. This makes the first day from light to light or from morning to morning. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Bro. Dave Gardner

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Brother, the light is from morning to evening that God called day, the 12 hours of light of the first half of 24 hours, and the "first day" of 24 hours ends with the second half from evening to morning that God called night, the 12 hours of darkness.

God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day. (Genesis 1:5 NIV)​

The period between an "evening" and a "morning" that ended the first day is not 24 hours, that period is only the night half a day period of 12 hours that completed the first day that began before this sentence with a period of light from morning to evening. This makes the first day from light to light or from morning to morning. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
Not buying that oil, Brother. Don't know which Adventist church taught you that, but it's definitely not part of the orthodoxy of the General Conference 28 or the BRI. I guess there's always a new schism around the corner.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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the light is from morning to evening that God called day, the 12 hours of light of the first half of 24 hours, and the "first day" of 24 hours ends with the second half from evening to morning that God called night, the 12 hours of darkness.
Again a false premise..... nothing can be built upon a false premise..... It will just fall down same as on quicksand ....
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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the light is from morning to evening that God called day, the 12 hours of light of the first half of 24 hours, and the "first day" of 24 hours ends with the second half from evening to morning that God called night, the 12 hours of darkness.
I saw a similar if not the same false teaching sometime a year or more ago, about "12 hour" something or another, but do not remember who was the false teacher.

Perhaps if you would identify the teacher of this error, it would be easier to get to the root of it .....
 
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Bro. Dave Gardner

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Brother, you didn't ask me, but this is a question that I can answer with confidence. The new covenant is Jesus replacing the sacrifice of so many animals for the forgiveness of sin. It is not the only covenant God has made with us and also does not replace all previous covenants. It is not new in the sense that it was known from the beginning, because Adam and Eve were told of the coming of Jesus that would replace the forgiveness of sin by its shadow of the sacrifice of a lamb representing Jesus. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
What is this, chopped liver?

Jeremiah 31
31Behold, the days come, said the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband to them, said the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, said the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, said the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
 
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Bro. Dave Gardner

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The period between an "evening" and a "morning" that ended the first day is not 24 hours, that period is only the night half a day period of 12 hours that completed the first day that began before this sentence with a period of light from morning to evening. This makes the first day from light to light or from morning to morning.
And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the Sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the Sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the Sabbath day.
Nehemiah 13:19
 
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guevaraj

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Not buying that oil, Brother. Don't know which Adventist church taught you that, but it's definitely not part of the orthodoxy of the General Conference 28 or the BRI. I guess there's always a new schism around the corner.
Brother, although the Seventh-day Adventist Church has prepared me to see this new truth through our investigation of the word translated as "evening", someone who is not of my faith highlighted this truth in Genesis in a forum in Spanish. Comparing Genesis with Leviticus convinced me that the first day ends with the first half of a Sabbath in Israel from evening to evening in Leviticus with a morning in the middle that splits the two halves, the first 12 hour period of a Sabbath night in Israel ends the first day that began earlier with a 12-hour light period. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Comparing Genesis with Leviticus convinced me that the first day ends with the first half of a Sabbath in Israel from evening to evening in Leviticus with a morning in the middle that splits the two halves, the first 12 hour period of a Sabbath night in Israel ends the first day that began earlier with a 12-hour light period.
Oh, well then, this is where the error started.
 
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