joshua 1 9

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The next largest group of "Jews" who is most likely to have Semitic DNA (which is primarily consistent with Arab DNA)
Of course the Semitic DNA is consistent with Arab DNA, because Abraham fathered Ishmael and Issac. The Arab continental plate is 1500 by 1500 by 1500 miles. God gave this land to the descendants of Abraham.

Even though Arab and "Jew" both have the same DNA from their patriarch they do have a different mother. The Arabs are descended from the Egyptian women Hagar and the "Jewish" people are descended from Sarah who gave birth to Issac even though she was past the age of being able to give birth in the natural.

We only have one "Jew" that we have to worry about and that is David. Jesus is the natural descendant of David. So it is though David that He has the right to be King over the New Jerusalem. We will rule and reign with Him for 1,000 years.
So, what exactly is "a Jew" today.
They do not go by DNA. I do not know what they need to do to qualify to immigrate to Israel. My understanding is they go by the mother not the father.

Right now it is the Hasidim Kaballah people that have preserved a lot of the teaching associated with the "Jewish" faith. It is easy to tell who they are because they do not cut or trim their beard. There are conservative "Jews" that even follow the dietary laws. But they do not seem to take the study of their religion very serious.
 
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The Righterzpen

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In Hebrew this has to do with the breath of life. neshamah Strong's Hebrew: 5397. נְשָׁמָה (neshamah) -- breath

Every living thing though has the breath of life; so the breath of life is not specific to humans; so thus is not delineated as a "solely man" thing.

Theistic Evolution can help us to understand how God formed Adam from the dust of the ground.

All evolution requires death. There's no need for something to "evolve" if there is no death to drive its need to reproduce. Scripture is pretty clear that death did not exist until after the fall; seeing how it is a consequence of the fall.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Every living thing though has the breath of life; so the breath of life is not specific to humans; so thus is not delineated as a "solely man" thing.
What scripture do you have to back up this claim?
There's no need for something to "evolve" if there is no death to drive its need to reproduce.
Yes so there is no need to reproduce in Heaven. There are already lots of babies there. They just need a few adults to adopt them.
Scripture is pretty clear that death did not exist until after the fall
There was death before the Fall, the Bible says there was no death from sin. I did a study of the remains of people before Adam. They all died a violent death at the prime of life. They were hunted down and killed like they were an animal. Either their skull was crushed with a rock, or they had an arrow head or spear head stuck in them. Usually they are being investigated as a murder victim right up until they realize how old they are. Then the remains are turned over to the University to study. There was a indian tribe that wanted to claim one of the remains but the DNA tests did not verify that they were related.

There no evidence of old age before Adam. They all looked to be in their early 30's. Of course this lines up with what Cain said: "I will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” (Genesis 4:14)

Of course this was never God's intention. This was the work of Satan to try to destroy God's creation. This why Satan or Lucifer was manifest as the Serpent in the Garden of Eden.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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So thanks @Pavel Mosko. You always have thought provoking insights.

There is some other things you might be interested in from the Syriac tradition. On the subject of Holy Week (how some Messianic Jews and Hebrew roots Protestants have questioned the traditional Holy week narrative I sent this one minister I've known for years).




  • 1)The Christians of the Apostolic See of Nineveh (descended by the Aramaic speaking Jews of the Diaspora who lived along the Silk road), not only are OK with Friday Crucifixion but deem it necessary! But they are not alone because the Eastern Orthodox and other “Oriental Orthodox” who are not in Communion with them also have the same ideas. Some might even call this a belief about “God’s Economy”, because saint Paul’s famous Romans Adam/Christ Typology is phrased a bit like a law of physics, i.e. “Therefore since sin entered through one man, Christ had to do X” etc.





    2) Besides this there are strong folk beliefs among many Eastern Christians (Eastern Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, and Oriental Orthodox) that the area of Jerusalem but especially where Christ was killed was “The Center of Creation”, “The Center of the Cosmos” , “The Garden of Eden” etc. Some of the Syriac apochrahal writings tend to believe that Adam was created on the spot where Christ was killed etc.





    Anyway with those bullet points in mind I give some quotes taken from the end of “Cave of Treasurers” (Syriac Christian Apocrypha) that shows you the kinds of Typal and “God’s Economy” sort of reasoning (besides all the extra biblical folklore that is) that revolves around this issue.


    QUOTATIONS

    At the SECOND HOUR of Friday the wild beasts, and the cattle, and the feathered fowl gathered themselves together [Fol. 44a, col. 1] to Adam, and he gave names to them as they bowed their heads before him. And at the second hour of Friday the Jews gathered themselves together against Christ, and they gnashed their teeth at Him, even as the blessed David said, "Many bulls have gathered together round about me, bulls of Bashan have beset me round" (Ps. xxii. 12).



    At the SIXTH HOUR Eve went up to the tree of the transgression of the commandment, and at the sixth hour Christ ascended the Cross, the Tree of Life.



    At the SIXTH HOUR Eve gave unto Adam the fruit of the gall of death [Fol. 44a, col. 2], and at the sixth hour the crowd of iniquity gave unto Christ vinegar and gall.



    For THREE HOURS Adam remained under the Tree naked, and for three hours was Christ naked p. 223 on the wood of the Cross. And from the right side of Adam went forth Eve, the mother of mortal offspring, and from the right side of Christ went forth baptism, the mother of immortal offspring.



    On Friday Adam and Eve sinned, and on Friday their sin was remitted.



    On Friday Adam and Eve died, and on Friday they came alive.



    On Friday Death reigned over them, and on Friday they were freed from his dominion.



    On Friday Adam and Eve went forth from Paradise, and on Friday our Lord went into the grave.



    On Friday Adam and Eve became naked, and on Friday Christ stripped [Fol. 44b, col. 1] Himself naked and clothed them.



    On Friday Satan stripped Adam and Eve naked, and on Friday Christ stripped naked Satan and all his hosts, and put them to shame openly.



    On Friday the door of Paradise was shut and Adam went forth, and on Friday it was opened and a robber went in.



    On Friday the two-edged sword was given to the Cherub, and on Friday Christ smote with the spear, and brake the two-edged sword.



    On Friday kingdom, and priesthood, and prophecy were given unto Adam, and on Friday p. 224 priesthood, and kingdom, and prophecy were taken from the Jews.



    At the NINTH HOUR Adam went down into the lowest depth of the earth from the height of Paradise, and at the ninth hour Christ went down to the lowest depths of the earth, to those who lay [Fol. 44b, col. 2] in the dust, from the height of the Cross.

    END QUOTATIONS



    I am actually strongly thinking come next Pascha of doing something on Friday Adamaic typology that mentions this stuff along with a few other scriptural related bullet points etc.

    Take Care,

    Pavel
 
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The Righterzpen

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Of course the Semitic DNA is consistent with Arab DNA, because Abraham fathered Ishmael and Issac.

Issac was the son of promise though, not Ishmael. In Issac shall thy seed be called. The promise was made to both Abraham and Sarah. So though Arabs have Abrahamic DNA; they weren't designated the pro-generators of the Messiah.

The line came from Abraham to Issac to Jacob; because Jacob was the one who's name was changed to Israel.

Arabs are descendants of Ishmael and Edomites are descendants of Esau. Neither of them were part of the "Jewish" covenant

We only have one "Jew" that we have to worry about and that is David. Jesus is the natural descendant of David. So it is though David that He has the right to be King over the New Jerusalem.

Jesus has the right to be the King over the New Jerusalem because He atoned for sin, not because he was a genetic descendent of David's. Matter of fact, the end of Ephesians 1 tells us that all power and authority were given to Christ upon the resurrection. He reigns over the New Jerusalem now; both in heaven and on earth.

They do not go by DNA. I do not know what they need to do to qualify to immigrate to Israel.

This is a current issue in Israel and has been (probably for at leas the last 10 years) primarily because of the fall of the Soviet Union and now "Jews" are flooding into Israel. Consequently, the Israeli law of "right of return" is being amended (again) requiring "other" proof of "Jewishness". (The Zionists have bitten off more than they can..... Jew! :sorry:)

Anyways; it's now a hot button issue especially with Ashkenazis wanting to come from Russia.

Genetic citizenship: DNA testing and the Israeli Law of Return

Right now it is the Hasidim Kaballah people that have preserved a lot of the teaching associated with the "Jewish" faith.

Rabbinic (modern) Judaism is not the same thing as Mosaic Judaism, nor is it the same thing as 1st Century Judaism. There are no more Sadducees and so all Jewish history and religious thought is now filtered only through the eyes of what had been the Pharisees. Hasidim / Kaballah has continued to divert further and further from the Scripture to the point that it is so totally a different religion than was given to Moses. The Scripture isn't even the final authority any more. The Talmud is. Have you ever read the Talmud? Do you know what's in it?
 
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joshua 1 9

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Hasidim / Kaballah has continued to divert further and further from the Scripture to the point that it is so totally a different religion than was given to Moses.
Yes, I ask them by what authority do they add to what God gave to Moses and they do not answer me. Only Jesus can add to what we receive from Moses. All I am interested in is learning the Hebrew language and the meaning of the Hebrew letters. Although it is interesting to study the Hebrew religious holidays and what the lesson is in that for us today. For me it is interesting that we can study the meaning of a Hebrew word when we study the letters that make up that word. This helps us to better understand the message that God has for us today in our Bible.
 
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Every living thing though has the breath of life; so the breath of life is not specific to humans; so thus is not delineated as a "solely man" thing.

What scripture do you have to back up this claim?

Genesis 6:17
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

This verse explains to us that "all flesh" has "the breath of life".

Genesis 7:15
And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

This verse explains to us that "all flesh" includes animals.

Job 33:4
4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

The breath of life is what defines a "life form" as being "alive".

Genesis 1:30
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life,

So thus by extrapolation, I think it's safe to say that everything that is "alive" (including plants) possesses the breath of life.

Yes so there is no need to reproduce in Heaven. There are already lots of babies there. They just need a few adults to adopt them.

This has nothing to do with creation. Reproduction was made necessary based on the fact that there would be death. Jesus makes a comment about marriage being for the children of this word; but in eternity there is no marriage because there is no death.

Luke 20
34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

There was death before the Fall, the Bible says there was no death from sin.

Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Death is a result of sin. When there is no law, sin is not imputed.

Death reigning even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression is talking about the creation. When Adam transgressed; the creation was now subject to death.

1 Corinthians 15
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 
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Yes, I ask them by what authority do they add to what God gave to Moses and they do not answer me. Only Jesus can add to what we receive from Moses. All I am interested in is learning the Hebrew language and the meaning of the Hebrew letters. Although it is interesting to study the Hebrew religious holidays and what the lesson is in that for us today. For me it is interesting that we can study the meaning of a Hebrew word when we study the letters that make up that word. This helps us to better understand the message that God has for us today in our Bible.

Scripture itself tells us how to study it. Line upon line, precept upon precept. Comparing scripture with scripture.

I'm assuming you know what a concordance is? You don't actually need Rabbis to tell you what the Hebrew letters mean. You can actually use Scripture to help you define them. It's a tedious way to study and if you wanted to take a general Hebrew class at a theological school to teach you the nuts and bolts of the Hebrew language; that would probably be beneficial.

I haven't done that myself. I'd like to and I may at some point. Right now though I got a lot to deal with. I have a rather sick teenager.
 
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The Righterzpen

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There is some other things you might be interested in from the Syriac tradition. On the subject of Holy Week (how some Messianic Jews and Hebrew roots Protestants have questioned the traditional Holy week narrative I sent this one minister I've known for years).
  • 1)The Christians of the Apostolic See of Nineveh (descended by the Aramaic speaking Jews of the Diaspora who lived along the Silk road), not only are OK with Friday Crucifixion but deem it necessary! But they are not alone because the Eastern Orthodox and other “Oriental Orthodox” who are not in Communion with them also have the same ideas. Some might even call this a belief about “God’s Economy”, because saint Paul’s famous Romans Adam/Christ Typology is phrased a bit like a law of physics, i.e. “Therefore since sin entered through one man, Christ had to do X” etc.

    2) Besides this there are strong folk beliefs among many Eastern Christians (Eastern Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, and Oriental Orthodox) that the area of Jerusalem but especially where Christ was killed was “The Center of Creation”, “The Center of the Cosmos” , “The Garden of Eden” etc. Some of the Syriac apochrahal writings tend to believe that Adam was created on the spot where Christ was killed etc.

    Anyway with those bullet points in mind I give some quotes taken from the end of “Cave of Treasurers” (Syriac Christian Apocrypha) that shows you the kinds of Typal and “God’s Economy” sort of reasoning (besides all the extra biblical folklore that is) that revolves around this issue.

    QUOTATIONS

    At the SECOND HOUR of Friday the wild beasts, and the cattle, and the feathered fowl gathered themselves together [Fol. 44a, col. 1] to Adam, and he gave names to them as they bowed their heads before him. And at the second hour of Friday the Jews gathered themselves together against Christ, and they gnashed their teeth at Him, even as the blessed David said, "Many bulls have gathered together round about me, bulls of Bashan have beset me round" (Ps. xxii. 12).

    At the SIXTH HOUR Eve went up to the tree of the transgression of the commandment, and at the sixth hour Christ ascended the Cross, the Tree of Life.

    At the SIXTH HOUR Eve gave unto Adam the fruit of the gall of death [Fol. 44a, col. 2], and at the sixth hour the crowd of iniquity gave unto Christ vinegar and gall.

    For THREE HOURS Adam remained under the Tree naked, and for three hours was Christ naked p. 223 on the wood of the Cross. And from the right side of Adam went forth Eve, the mother of mortal offspring, and from the right side of Christ went forth baptism, the mother of immortal offspring.

    On Friday Adam and Eve sinned, and on Friday their sin was remitted.

    On Friday Adam and Eve died, and on Friday they came alive.

    On Friday Death reigned over them, and on Friday they were freed from his dominion.

    On Friday Adam and Eve went forth from Paradise, and on Friday our Lord went into the grave.

    On Friday Adam and Eve became naked, and on Friday Christ stripped [Fol. 44b, col. 1] Himself naked and clothed them.

    On Friday Satan stripped Adam and Eve naked, and on Friday Christ stripped naked Satan and all his hosts, and put them to shame openly.

    On Friday the door of Paradise was shut and Adam went forth, and on Friday it was opened and a robber went in.

    On Friday the two-edged sword was given to the Cherub, and on Friday Christ smote with the spear, and brake the two-edged sword.

    On Friday kingdom, and priesthood, and prophecy were given unto Adam, and on Friday p. 224 priesthood, and kingdom, and prophecy were taken from the Jews.

    At the NINTH HOUR Adam went down into the lowest depth of the earth from the height of Paradise, and at the ninth hour Christ went down to the lowest depths of the earth, to those who lay [Fol. 44b, col. 2] in the dust, from the height of the Cross.

    END QUOTATIONS

    I am actually strongly thinking come next Pascha of doing something on Friday Adamaic typology that mentions this stuff along with a few other scriptural related bullet points etc.

    Take Care,

    Pavel

These analogies would make interesting research projects. If you dug through the language of the Scripture; you might actually find these analogies in the Bible.

I know when I was digging through the passage in Genesis about Abraham and Issac and "Mt. Moriah" The "place of sacrifice" where Abraham took Issac was probably the site of the Mt. of Olives where the crucifixion took place.

And I certainly agree; Scriptural evidence for Jesus being crucified on Friday is undeniable.

Was Jesus crucified on the same place Adam was formed? I suppose it's plausible. Again though, would require digging through Scripture and taking a real close look at words to see if you can find it.

The analogies make a lot of sense. The creation is given to us as a testimony; and sometimes in very specific ways.

Cool stuff! :oldthumbsup:
 
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joshua 1 9

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Genesis 6:17
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life,
The Hebrew word here is "ruach" we are looking for the word: "neshamah" used in Genesis 2:7. I thought I gave you the strong's link for that word. Strong's Hebrew: 5397. נְשָׁמָה (neshamah) -- breath

Also in Genesis 2:7 we see the world soul. Here we have the addition of the letter Lamed.

So thus by extrapolation, I think it's safe to say that everything that is "alive" (including plants) possesses the breath of life.

Yes life is oxygen based but not all life has a soul in the way that man does.
 
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joshua 1 9

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It's a tedious way to study and if you wanted to take a general Hebrew class at a theological school to teach you the nuts and bolts of the Hebrew language; that would probably be beneficial.
Yes that is what I am wanting to do right now at this point in my life. In Bible school they teach that you look at the context to determine the meaning or definition of a word. That leaves a lot to be desired. In Hebrew we see that each letter is a symbol and we join these symbols together to create a word.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Was Jesus crucified on the same place Adam was formed?
That is not very likely. We know that Eden was in the Tigris Euphrates river valley. Right now the belief is that Eden is under the Persian Gulf. Abraham was the first to cross over the river. That is what Hebrew means, to cross over to go to a new land. We are told this was the city of Salam under the King Priest Melchizedek. This is where Abraham paid his tithe. This then became the city of Jerusalem. Today the Mormons believe that there is a Melchizedek priesthood that is higher then the Levi priesthood we read about in our Bible.

Have you read Bruce Feilers book on walking the Bible Land.

 
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The Righterzpen

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The Hebrew word here is "ruach" we are looking for the word: "neshamah" used in Genesis 2:7. I thought I gave you the strong's link for that word. Strong's Hebrew: 5397. נְשָׁמָה (neshamah) -- breath

Also in Genesis 2:7 we see the world soul. Here we have the addition of the letter Lamed.

Yes you're correct, they are two different words and one doesn't appear to be a root or extrapolation of the other.

Job 33:4 though, is the same word that's in Genesis 2:7. "Breath" there is connected to "life" ".... breath gives me life..." And "life" is the same word used in Genesis 2. ".... living soul".

So "breath" is still "life" as well as "living soul".

The word "life" in all passages (including the ones about the flood) though is the same word.

In Genesis 7:22 though; we have the same word "breath" that's in Genesis 2:7. "Everything that had the breath of the spirit of life in its nostrils all that was on the dry land died.

That seems pretty clear to me that the two words "breath" are interchangeable applying to both man, animal and plant.

"breath" in Genesis 6:17 and 7:15 is most commonly translated "spirit" or "wind"
And "breath" in Genesis 2, Job and Genesis 7:22 is most commonly translated from a root word that means "to pant".

Why the different words that appear to be interchangeable? I don't know.

Sometimes you get "obsolete" words; that are really borrowed from another language. Which could be the case here. (I'd have to look it up.)

I would agree that all individual organisms have "souls"; it just because humans are created in God's image is a human soul accountable for sin.
 
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That is not very likely. We know that Eden was in the Tigris Euphrates river valley. Right now the belief is that Eden is under the Persian Gulf. Abraham was the first to cross over the river. That is what Hebrew means, to cross over to go to a new land. We are told this was the city of Salam under the King Priest Melchizedek. This is where Abraham paid his tithe. This then became the city of Jerusalem. Today the Mormons believe that there is a Melchizedek priesthood that is higher then the Levi priesthood we read about in our Bible.

Have you read Bruce Feilers book on walking the Bible Land.


Pinning down geographical locations is difficult because as you say; everything changed after the flood. So was Jesus crucified in the same place Adam was created? That's just as likely as it's not likely and either way, can't be proven archeologically.

I've also heard that said about "Jerusalem" and "king of Salam"; which is another intriguing hypothesis that has circumstantial evidence but no historical documentation (or at least if it exists, hasn't been found yet) that states "this city was called Salem". Circumstantially speaking the name Jerusalem does date back to the days of Abraham. So, it might be true. Often traditions do have kernels of truth to them.

As far as the word Hebrew?

Genesis 14:13 seems to imply that "Hebrew" is derived from a geographical location "Hebron". Hebron means "association" or "group" of people who share common cultural traits.

Now "Hebrew" comes from a name "Abar" which the name does mean "to pass through" (by extrapolation) "to distant land". Abar was a descendent of Shem. (Shem / Semite) Now is there a river near Hebron to connect "travel over a river"? (I don't know.)

As far as Melchizedek?

Jesus is described as a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Psalm 110:4
Hebrews 7 He has no "beginning of days" or "end of life". So was Melchizedek a theophany? Probably.

Bruce Fellers?

I may have heard of him (seen things he's produced) but have not read any books by him. I'll take a look at the documentary you posted.

This one I stumbled upon and it's interesting too.
 
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Words are only interchangeable with they are made up of the same letters.

They may not be interchangeable as in "annoyance" and "rage" are differing degrees of the same emotion; yet they still describe anger. In that it becomes a nuance issue.

(Now I don't know the nuance differences between these two words for "breath" are in Hebrew. But the words obviously are interchangeable for different classes of organisms.)

So, what do you make of the fact though that; the word "breath" (Genesis 2) used to describe Adam, is the same word used in Genesis 7:22 that states all life on land died in the flood. Those are the same word describing two different classes of life.
 
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Adam did not want to be separated from Eve. So he sacrificed himself for her. In the same way Jesus did not want to be separated from His Bride. So He gave His life at Calvary: "For the Joy set before Him" (Hebrew12:2)

Jesus is everywhere in the Bible. He is in every letter of the Hebrew: every Jot and every Tittle.
Adam sinned by eating the fruit. There was nothing noble or righteous about it. He plunged humanity into satanic bondage. If anything, Adam's treachery was archetypical of Satans' rebellion, not Jesus' obedience.
 
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Eve was deceived by the serpent, Adam was not deceived.
The serpent knew he could not deceive Adam, Adam had named him, so he got at Adam by deceiving Eve.
Adam already named all the animals, and so knew the serpent was deceptively cunning.
I find it interesting that Adam named the creature, this beast of the field. this beast was likely jealous of Adam and Eve and the relationship of being created in the image of God, a relationship he knew could never be his, and sought to corrupt that, seeing he was the most cunning creature God had made, he knew what he could do. The beast likely despised being named by Adam, he would have wanted to name his own self. Satan is very proud and pompous and self glorifying, to be named by Adam would have been quite a slap down in his mind, and to have named something meant you were on a higher level than the thing named, which Adam and Eve were being made in God's own image, unlike the serpent who was not.

1 Timothy 2:9-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.

12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Gen 3
Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

Gen 2
18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” 19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.
 
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The Righterzpen

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I find it interesting that Adam named the creature, this beast of the field. this beast was likely jealous of Adam and Eve and the relationship of being created in the image of God, a relationship he knew could never be his, and sought to corrupt that, seeing he was the most cunning creature God had made, he knew what he could do. The beast likely despised being named by Adam, he would have wanted to name his own self. Satan is very proud and pompous and self glorifying, to be named by Adam would have been quite a slap down in his mind, and to have named something meant you were on a higher level than the thing named, which Adam and Eve were being made in God's own image, unlike the serpent who was not.

Interesting observation about Adam naming the animals and having also named "the serpent". It doesn't say Adam named angels though; so it doesn't seem he would have named Satan (Lucifer); at least at the same time as Adam had named the other animals.

Although I agree with you; that it sounds reasonable that Satan would not have been "happy" about being named by Adam. Adam did rank above him in the order of created things because the only entity that ranked above Adam was God.

Now in the end "Adam" does name "Satan" / "Lucifer" because in the penning of Scripture human language does require some descriptor (name) of this entity. So did Adam name Satan? In a round about way; yes.

I looked up the word "animal" in the Hebrew in Genesis 2:20. It literally means "living of the land". Which would have been everything, including plants. (I wonder how long that took? LOL)

:preach: :sorry: :swoon:

I did notice something in Genesis (also comparing this to the atonement) about "the breath of life". (This is covered somewhat in this thread = the breath of life makes things alive.) Yet this realization brought me to the question as to whether or not angels are actually considered "life". Now they are definitely not "carbon based" if they are indeed considered "life forms".

Now it is a possibility that they are "life" forms because something I once encountered in studying Ezekiel described cherubim and seraphim as having "dead" bodies. I think what the Hebrew meant was that though these were obedient entities; they were still subject to death because of the fall. Which means that if Christ had not atoned for carbon based life; even the obedient angels would have perished in the destruction of the cosmos. So although Christ did not die for angels; the obedient ones are still eternal recipients of the consequences of the atonement (such as non human life is also).

So yes, interesting observation about naming the animals.

Adam already named all the animals, and so knew the serpent was deceptively cunning.

And here's where Adam gets in trouble.

Adam and Eve were commanded by God to keep and care for the garden. That didn't just require picking up fruit that fell off of trees. It's actually a military term meaning to defend. Which obviously leads to the question of how did the serpent get into the garden to begin with. They obviously weren't "doing their job" in that respect.

So if Adam knew this serpent was deceptively cunning; that doesn't say a whole lot of positive about Adam. If he had not enough interest in attempting to prevent Eve from being deceived; at the very least, he didn't really love her.

Now was Adam "complicit" in the scheme (even if non verbally so). That raises a whole other set of questions about when actually was the fall? We often interpret it as "at the point they ate the fruit". Their consequence was actually felt at that point. But remember when God said to Cain "sin crouches at your door"; before he actually killed Abel? Sin obviously manifests in the heart before it manifests in the physical world; and I think this is the reason Jesus made the statements about adultery and lust.

So.... interesting.

I'm not sure why you quoted the verses in Timothy; and what they have anything to do with Adam's accountability?
 
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sdowney717

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Interesting observation about Adam naming the animals and having also named "the serpent". It doesn't say Adam named angels though; so it doesn't seem he would have named Satan (Lucifer); at least at the same time as Adam had named the other animals.

Although I agree with you; that it sounds reasonable that Satan would not have been "happy" about being named by Adam. Adam did rank above him in the order of created things because the only entity that ranked above Adam was God.

Now in the end "Adam" does name "Satan" / "Lucifer" because in the penning of Scripture human language does require some descriptor (name) of this entity. So did Adam name Satan? In a round about way; yes.

I looked up the word "animal" in the Hebrew in Genesis 2:20. It literally means "living of the land". Which would have been everything, including plants. (I wonder how long that took? LOL)

:preach: :sorry: :swoon:

I did notice something in Genesis (also comparing this to the atonement) about "the breath of life". (This is covered somewhat in this thread = the breath of life makes things alive.) Yet this realization brought me to the question as to whether or not angels are actually considered "life". Now they are definitely not "carbon based" if they are indeed considered "life forms".

Now it is a possibility that they are "life" forms because something I once encountered in studying Ezekiel described cherubim and seraphim as having "dead" bodies. I think what the Hebrew meant was that though these were obedient entities; they were still subject to death because of the fall. Which means that if Christ had not atoned for carbon based life; even the obedient angels would have perished in the destruction of the cosmos. So although Christ did not die for angels; the obedient ones are still eternal recipients of the consequences of the atonement (such as non human life is also).

So yes, interesting observation about naming the animals.



And here's where Adam gets in trouble.

Adam and Eve were commanded by God to keep and care for the garden. That didn't just require picking up fruit that fell off of trees. It's actually a military term meaning to defend. Which obviously leads to the question of how did the serpent get into the garden to begin with. They obviously weren't "doing their job" in that respect.

So if Adam knew this serpent was deceptively cunning; that doesn't say a whole lot of positive about Adam. If he had not enough interest in attempting to prevent Eve from being deceived; at the very least, he didn't really love her.

Now was Adam "complicit" in the scheme (even if non verbally so). That raises a whole other set of questions about when actually was the fall? We often interpret it as "at the point they ate the fruit". Their consequence was actually felt at that point. But remember when God said to Cain "sin crouches at your door"; before he actually killed Abel? Sin obviously manifests in the heart before it manifests in the physical world; and I think this is the reason Jesus made the statements about adultery and lust.

So.... interesting.

I'm not sure why you quoted the verses in Timothy; and what they have anything to do with Adam's accountability?
God left the door open for Satan to be the tempter. That the serpent is mentioned as the most cunning creature God has made and how he speaks, implies there is something more to this beast of the field than just being a snake. And of course how God addresses the serpent when he is cursed also demonstrates that too.
Of all the living things God has made, only man was made in His image, not angels or any other living thing.
And yes angels are alive, the spirit of the living creature is within them.

Ezekiel 1
15 Now as I looked at the living creatures, behold, a wheel was on the earth beside each living creature with its four faces. 16 The appearance of the wheels and their workings was like the color of beryl, and all four had the same likeness. The appearance of their workings was, as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel. 17 When they moved, they went toward any one of four directions; they did not turn aside when they went. 18 As for their rims, they were so high they were awesome; and their rims were full of eyes, all around the four of them. 19 When the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. 20 Wherever the spirit wanted to go, they went, because there the spirit went; and the wheels were lifted together with them, for the spirit of the [d]living creatures was in the wheels. 21 When those went, these went; when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up together with them, for the spirit of the [e]living creatures was in the wheels.
 
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