Gal 4 condemns pagan days but does not condemn the Bible , nor scripture, nor Bible holy days

BobRyan said:

My second attemp at getting "the topic" the POV posted without breaking any rules

(This is not intended as a thread topic on Christmas or Thanksgiving or ..)

My main point is that Paul is not condemning the Bible in Galatians 4 nor even Bible approved holy days

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Some have supposed that Galatians is in some way condemning -- those who follow holy days, festivals, sacrifices, passovers, ceremoniies, rituals, beads, sacraments, dietary laws, and sabbaths, are choosing a religion that is weak and ineffectual

So then to help with that point we might look for a quote from Galatians with that statement actually in it -- this would have been very convenient just then... but we don't have one.

even if someone where to say " Galatians 4:9-10 is a good indication "

It would not meet the criteria for an "actual quote" with that statement "actually in it" from Galatians -- rather it would merely "indication" instead of quote. T

That some of us may "take it as an indication" of something means we would be "inferring it" and not the evidence that we actually "found a quote" with those words in it.

So then --
Gal 4:9-10 is a great example of a quote that does not mention Sabbath or Passover at all.

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves (pagans) to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain

Paul is condemning the "return back again" to paganism in Gal 4:8-11 by daring to observe even one of those old pagan days, seasons etc -- and declaring it to be a loss of salvation itself.

By contrast in Rom 14 - Paul condemns anyone who dares to look down upon someone who observes one of the Bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23.

Rom 14
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord


others may claim that "Titus, a Gentile not being compelled to be circumcised is another example of an indication."

But we all know that Gentiles were not required to be circumcised in OT or NT "my house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations" - not the command that "everyone must join the nation of Israel" thus in Acts 13 we find "almost the whole city" gathered for worship on Sabbath.

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Paul was responding to their acceptance of what the Judaizers were teaching them, that they needed to be circucumcised and to follow the Mosaic Law which involved the ceremonies, and rituals connected with Judaism. Therefore the days, weeks, months and years pertained to Judiasm, not the paganism that the Galatian Christians had originally abandoned in favour of Christ. It was not that the Galatians were going to join the nation of Israel, but that they were influenced to mix their faith in Christ with the works of of Judaism, which Paul had gone to great lengths to show in his original preaching of the gospel to them that faith alone in Christ was necessary for salvation. It was the Judaizers who told the Galatians that they needed to observe the Jewish Law, and could not be saved without it.

They taught that Paul was not a true Apostle of Christ and that his gospel of faith alone in Christ apart from works for salvation was false. Paul is responding by saying that those who preach a different gospel than salvation by faith alone in Christ are accursed.

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children,
were in bondage under the elements of the world:Elements of what? Judaism? No, the world.

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. Judaism knew God, but they did not recognize Christ when He came.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

What were they returning to?
Weak and beggarly elements of what?

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were
in bondage under the elements of the world:

Who was Paul addressing here?

"Paul's letter is addressed "to the churches of Galatia" (Galatians 1:2), but the location ofthese churches is a matter of debate.

A minority of scholars have argued that the "Galatia"
is an ethnic reference to a Celtic people living in northern Asia Minor, but most agree that it
is a geographical reference to the Roman province in central Asia Minor, which had been settled by
immigrant Celts in the 270s BC and retained Gaulish features of culture and language in Paul's day."


anyway- Paul was not addressing Judah,
he was addressing someone else.
Now read verse 10... Ye observe days,
and months, and times, and years.

These are not Jews observing Judaism, these are those who are of the world in Asia Minor observing the weak and beggarly elements of the world, not Judaism.

What does the bible say elsewhere about
AN OBSERVER OF TIMES

Enchantments, witchcraft, familiar spirits, and wizards.Its speaking of the occult.
DEUT.18:9-11 , 2 CHRON.33:3-6, GAL.4:8-11, LEV.19:26-30


LEV.19
[26] Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood:
neither shall ye use enchantment, (NOR OBSERVE TIMES).

[30] (YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS),
and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

What you wrote 'sounds' good, but how do you explain verse 4 and verse 21?

Which law is Paul referring too? The mosaic?

I think you are taking a couple of simple statements and making them difficult.

In Galatians, Paul is condemning the people he is talking to about returning back to paganism. They were raised doing these things, got converted but they are still clinging on to some of the rituals or maybe idols or going back to them.

Then moving over to Romans. Paul is talking to a group of people who may have been judging other believers on what they ate and what days they keep. Not pagan days but Jewish days like the Sabbath and food like pork. He is saying one brother whose faith is weak is keeping laws that he doesn't have to keep, like not eating pork, but don't judge him for that. Another person views all days the same so the Sabbath keeper shouldn't judge the brother who isn't keeping the sabbath. Because we are under grace not law.

coffee4u said:

Then moving over to Romans.

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Romans 14...
Him that is weak in the faith receive
ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
The first thing we see here is that this
chapter is about relating to a weak brother.

:2 For one believeth that he may eat all
things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

The subject here? Vegetarianism

:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

So, if you encounter one who is weak in the faith and believes he must eat vegetables only, don’t let this puff you up…

2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

What is the gold standard here?

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Now to the meat and potatoes…

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day,
to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks;
and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Why is eating and fasting (not eating)
connected to days here? Let’s see…

Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee,
that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week,
I give tithes of all that I possess.

From Bullingers Companion Bible…

Luke 18:12 twice in the week.
The law prescribed only one in the year
(Lev_16:29. Num_29:7).

By the time of Zec_8:19 there were four yearly fasts. In our Lord's day they were bi-weekly (Monday and Thursday), between Passover and Pentecost; and between the Feast of Tabernacles and the Dedication.

Yes they fasted two days a week, Monday and Thursday, EVERY MONDAY and EVERY THURSDAY.

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. :8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both
of the dead and living. :10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather,that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself:but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably.
Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Now Paul shifts his attention to meat offered to idols. At the time, meat and drink were offered to pagan idols. After it was offered it was sold in a meat market called the ‘Shambles’.

1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

Shambles…
G3111
µa´?e????
makellon

Thayer Definition:
1) a place where meat and other articles of food are sold, meat market
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of Latin origin [macellum]
Citing in TDNT: 4:370, 549

There were those who were weak in the faith (verse 1) who were offended by this. They somehow thought

that eating that food was somehow connecting them with the idolatrous practices around them. This is why the following is written…

16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink;
but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Meat here is…

G1035
ß???s??
bro¯sis
bro'-sis
From the base of G977; (abstractly) eating (literally or figuratively); by extension (concretely) food (literally

or figuratively): - eating, food, meat.
Notice it is food, not clean or unclean flesh.

G4213
p?´s??
posis
pos'-is
From the alternate of G4095; a drinking (the act), that is, (concretely) a draught: - drink.

Drinking, can be alcoholic or non-alcoholic beverages. Paul was dealing with ascetism and the belief that doing without was somehow a show of character. He dealt with this issue at Colossae also…

Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using
after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom
in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of
the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of
the flesh.

Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth
Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. :20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure;
but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

The word for meat here is broma, from Thayer’s…

G1033
ß???µa
bro¯ma
Thayer Definition:
1) that which is eaten, food
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the base of G977
Citing in TDNT: 1:642, 111

Again, we are dealing with food.

Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

So, it is not dealing with clean and unclean, but with flesh (meat) and wine (drink) that makes a weak brother stumble.

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever
is not of faith is sin.

There is no passage in Rom 14 that deal
with the Sabbath or clean and unclean meats.

The subjects are vegetarianism, fasting
and food and drink offered to idols.
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Isaiah 28:10 (KJV)
For precept must be upon precept, precept
upon precept; line upon line, line upon line;
here a little, and there a little:

I gave those as an example of the type of things we shouldn't judge others on, be it meat, pork, fish, whatever. Fasting, days kept.

Matthew 7
7 “Judgea]">[a] not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what b]">[b]judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Then moving over to Romans. Paul is talking to a group of people who may have been judging other believers on what they ate and what days they keep. Not pagan days but Jewish days like the Sabbath and food like pork.

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But There is no passage in Rom 14
that deals with the Sabbath days.

It would be interesting to study the letters that Paul wrote with the mindset that God never changed His mind about the foods His children should call food ("meat") or about the holy-day celebrations that He put into effect as listed in Leviticus 23. What God has been wanting from His people all along is a relationship with them, all the way to their hearts made holy as He is holy, their minds renewed, their bodies washed in clean water, their deeds righteous. We have scriptures that support that God has no reason to change His nature, only that He has been known to repent and show mercy when people repent from their evil. This points to what can be known about Him - full of mercy, lovingkindness, and justice.

When read with that mindset, much of the Paul's letters as he addresses the difficulties of the formerly pagan gentiles become plainer, whether dealing with pagan practices, asceticism, or Judaizing practices. Pagan practices were their own boast of worshiping another god or gods. But the LORD God is One - there is no other. Asceticism boasted itself in false humility and betting better by being more self-abasing. Judaizing boasted on doing more than the law demanded, as if checking off a longer list could earn acceptance, but it did not turn the heart to God and was of no help in reeling in pride, and Jesus pointed out how far they had missed the mark.

The poster noting the Pharisee/publican praying was a good reference here. We all miss the mark when we make our checklists in order to be approved in our own eyes and disdaining to others. But that doesn't negate that God already told us how to live. I simply don't see where He changed His mind about what He wants in His people. It was His great mercy to bring us in - but He is bringing us in to who HE is - and He hasn't changed. Jesus offered a clearer view, not a replacement.

Happy Day of Trumpets, by the way - one of those holy days as listed in Leviticus 23. It's a good day to remember all the ways trumpets were used in the scriptures. In the massive Exodus, trumpets were used to alert the masses. The story of the walls of Jericho falling remind me of the use of trumpets in obedience and the tremendous effect that obedience had. And there are trumpets ahead - and there will be a last trumpet.

I guess that depends on what you decide Romans 5 and 6 is talking about.
"One person regards one day above another, another regards every day. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord"

To me, that is talking about any days. Could be sabbath days, the day your church meets, or any holy/holiday like Christmas.
I see the passage with the focus being on not judging other believers over what days they observe or not, not over the specific days being talked about.

BobRyan said:

When I say --


I just mean that
Paul is condemning the "return back again" to paganism in Gal 4:8-11 by daring to observe even one of those old pagan days, seasons etc -- and declaring it to be a loss of salvation itself.

When I say


My point is that in Romans 14 all the bible approved days are being defended by Paul

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What would Paul know?

What would Paul know?

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"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"

Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. after Acts 13, Acts 26:7

Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Romans 9:4

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

1. Paul was a Pharisee. A teacher of God's law. He continued to call himself a Pharisee even after joining the church. (Acts 23:6)

Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead."

2. Paul loved God's law. It was a delight to him. (Romans 7:22) For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

3. Paul called God's law holy.(Romans 7:12) So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

4. Paul knew that breaking God's law is the very definition of sin.(1 John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5. Paul said that we don't nullify the law of God by our faith in Jesus Christ.(Rom 3:31 Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no means! Rather we uphold the law.

6. Paul often read from the scriptures on the sabbath (which is kept by the apostles 84 times in the book of Acts). And the only scriptures at that time was the old testament.

(Acts 17:2) As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures.

7. Paul was accused of forsaking the law of Moses when he first joined the church. (And ironically, he's still being accused today.)

(Act 21:21) They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.

8. These accusations were shown to be false.

(Acts 21:24) Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

9. When Paul was accused of forsaking the law of Moses, he always denied this, and said he does live according to the law.

(Acts 24:14) But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,

10. Paul said that those who refuse to submit to the law are "carnal minded" and hostile to God.(Romans 8:7-8) The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

11. Paul continued to travel to Jerusalem to celebrate God's feast days after joining the church.(Acts 18:21) But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

12. Paul often quoted from Moses's writings, and cited it as authority.(1 Corinthians 9:9-10) Do I say this merely on human authority?

Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God is concerned? Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us, because whoever plowsand threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest.

13. Paul claimed that ALL scripture is good for instruction in righteousness, and given through inspiration of God. He never singled out Moses' writings.(2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

14. Paul mentions that priests are still offering sacrifices to God even after Christ's death on the cross.(Heb 8:3-4) Every high priest is appointed
to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.

15. The most well known teaching in Paul's letters is the one where he says "you are not under law but under grace". People quote this scripture,
they almost always leave out the scripture that immediately follows it. Watch what happens when you add the context....

(Romans 6:14-16) For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace?

By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

16. Paul told the Colossi ans not to let anyone judge them because they were observing God's Sabbaths and feasts because these appointed times are "a shadow of things to come". Meaning they reveal future events, just like the Passover foreshadowed Christ's sacrifice on the cross.(Col 2:16-17)

17. Paul never reprimanded anyone for obeying God's law. Instead, he reprimanded new gentile converts, the Galatians, who were trying to be justified by the law, instead of faith in Jesus Christ. (Galatians 2:16)
Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

18. The Galatians, who Paul was repremanding for trying to be justified by the law, were going back to serving other gods after they were circumcised.
This is why Paul had to explain that the works of the law can't earn your salvation. (Gal 4: 8-11)

Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

19. Paul understood that obedience to God's law is a natural result of salvation. Once you become a true christian, God writes His law on your heart and mind, and causes you to walk in them.(Heb 10:16)

"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

20. Paul's letters come with a warning label attached to them. (2 Peter 3:16-17)

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters.His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
-

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom:
and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom:
a good understanding have all they that do his
commandments:his praise endureth for ever.

BobRyan said:

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<BR>That issue with circumcision was certainly part of it- since in fact there was no Bible command that all gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved - but in Galatians 4 Paul specifically selects out pagan practices and declares that they had gone back to those pagan practices.
By contrast in Romans 14 Paul defends "every observance" of all Bible holy days as something that cannot be condemned.
Therefore the days, weeks, months and years in Gal 4 cannot pertain to Judiasm because then Paul would be "condemning himself" in Romans 14.
Rather as the Gal 4 text shows it is a "return again" to paganism.<BR>

•••

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Paul included himself as one of those who were in bondage to beggarly elements.

Sam91 said:

What you wrote 'sounds' good, but how do you explain verse 4 and verse 21?

Which law is Paul referring too? The mosaic?

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Verse 4 refers to the covenant of which Christ and the woman are the fruition of.

Verse 21 seems to be referring to the covenant Abraham and God made with Agar which was a covenant of bondage.

Semper-Fi said:

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children,
were in bondage under the elements of the world:Elements of what? Judaism? No, the world.

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. Judaism knew God, but they did not recognize Christ when He came.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

What were they returning to?
Weak and beggarly elements of what?

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It is a contrast of priesthoods.

The ruling priesthood heads of the court. Which were not Gods by nature.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

the weak and poor elements of the earthly priestly ministry
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness (asthenes<772>) and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity (astheneia<769>); but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Christs priestly ministry is in power...