Is Trump a Closet Socialist??

zephcom · Sep 29, 2019

I just came across this article:

White House deliberates block on all US investments in China

Which suggests that the Trump administration is considering "blocking all U.S. financial investments in Chinese companies". As we have seen in the past, Trump 'ordered' American companies to pull their production processes out of China.

When did the Republicans start embracing socialism over capitalism? When did Republicans decide it is the role of the government to supervise private business and investors choices of markets to operate in just because the President doesn't like the balance of trade with a nation?

National defense from a hostile nation is one thing, but taking over private corporate and individual investing decisions just because a nation is perceived to be doing better than us in their use of capitalism is really turning America into just another version of China's socialism.

Are Republicans so blinded by their knee-jerk defense of Trump that they can't see that he is turning us into a socialist nation in which all commerce is controlled by the government down to the level of who is allowed to do business and who isn't?

Quasiblogo · Sep 29, 2019

I think it's a head fake by starting out with hyperbole, creating a polar position, in order to give space for his art dealing. We've already seen this with threatening doom to North Korea and Iran, just so he can hopefully get pragmatic deals which incidentally would make him look like he reached the happy medium. Can be nerve-wracking. President Clinton did the same for his own agenda. President Obama would voice extremes--and mainly not act at all.

Rubiks · Sep 29, 2019

I don't think an isolationist government falls under the definition of socialism.

On the bright side, this should mitigate climate change a bit.

MorkandMindy · Sep 29, 2019

Donald Trump has been following a moderate line all along, although the public like everything to be simplified down to extremes because those are easier to understand. He does use extreme bargaining positions as you mentioned.

Karl Marx spoke of the proletariat vs the bourgeoisie and that is a meaningful way to look at the stances of both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. Hillary wanted TPP to replace the jobs of American workers with cheap imports and she favored reducing student debt as that is mainly middle class.

Both Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump spoke of bringing back jobs.

MorkandMindy · Sep 29, 2019

Both avoided the far left error of the welfare queen, knowing that meaningful work is a good thing.

Kristopher Kolumbus · Sep 29, 2019

zephcom said:
I just came across this article:

White House deliberates block on all US investments in China

Which suggests that the Trump administration is considering "blocking all U.S. financial investments in Chinese companies". As we have seen in the past, Trump 'ordered' American companies to pull their production processes out of China.

When did the Republicans start embracing socialism over capitalism? When did Republicans decide it is the role of the government to supervise private business and investors choices of markets to operate in just because the President doesn't like the balance of trade with a nation?

National defense from a hostile nation is one thing, but taking over private corporate and individual investing decisions just because a nation is perceived to be doing better than us in their use of capitalism is really turning America into just another version of China's socialism.

Are Republicans so blinded by their knee-jerk defense of Trump that they can't see that he is turning us into a socialist nation in which all commerce is controlled by the government down to the level of who is allowed to do business and who isn't?

So if Trump were to order all US companies to quit doing business in Iran and remove their investments from that country, you think that would make him a “closet socialist”? Obviously our president is trying to hurt China because he correctly perceives them as a geopolitical opponent; he isn’t doing it because of socialist reasons. Quit being disingenuous on purpose.

MorkandMindy · Sep 29, 2019

Hillary's support was from the elite (weapons makers, she spoke at banks...) and the middle class, I describe that as her coalition.

Donald's support was from the workers and to a small extent from the elite, well so he hoped. But cut their taxes a few percent and they still didn't call the media off or do anything useful so I think that was an honest mistake. Most politicians feed the sharks, but it doesn't always work.

The gullibility might be said to be among the Hillary supporters for believing the media description of her as moderate left, while she told the banks she was in the elite and her actual policies were against the workers and for increasing the wealth of the middle class and the elite.

I think her support base knew that but it was just something you don't talk about. They liked to pretend to themselves that sending jobs to China would be fine because the unemployed worker's wives would get food stamps.

There was no delusion among many of the actual workers like myself as to what she was doing.

zephcom · Sep 29, 2019

Kristopher Kolumbus said:
So if Trump were to order all US companies to quit doing business in Iran and remove their investments from that country, you think that would make him a “closet socialist”? Obviously our president is trying to hurt China because he correctly perceives them as a geopolitical opponent; he isn’t doing it because of socialist reasons. Quit being disingenuous on purpose.

The difference I see between Iran and China is that Iran appears to be conducting a military destabilization of the Middle East. China is merely doing a better job economically than is America.

Now one can debate whether America should even be involved in military issues in the Middle East or not, but ordering private businesses to stop doing business with China simply because China is playing the economic game better than us certainly sounds to me like social engineering.

Social engineering has nothing at all to with protecting America militarily or even protecting the global peace militarily.

Your mileage on this may vary but from where I sit things are beginning to look a lot like America's government is making a move towards a socialized economy where private business will no longer be allowed the freedom to do business as they choose.

grasping the after wind · Sep 29, 2019

zephcom said:
I just came across this article:

White House deliberates block on all US investments in China

Which suggests that the Trump administration is considering "blocking all U.S. financial investments in Chinese companies". As we have seen in the past, Trump 'ordered' American companies to pull their production processes out of China.

When did the Republicans start embracing socialism over capitalism? When did Republicans decide it is the role of the government to supervise private business and investors choices of markets to operate in just because the President doesn't like the balance of trade with a nation?

National defense from a hostile nation is one thing, but taking over private corporate and individual investing decisions just because a nation is perceived to be doing better than us in their use of capitalism is really turning America into just another version of China's socialism.

Are Republicans so blinded by their knee-jerk defense of Trump that they can't see that he is turning us into a socialist nation in which all commerce is controlled by the government down to the level of who is allowed to do business and who isn't?

Trump does not have an ideological mind set. When it comes to foreign relations he has an us ( as in US) vs them ( anyone or anything that he sees as opposing US interests) mind set. He was after all a Democrat for years and could be one again if it was convenient for him. Republicans are not necessarily conservative ideologues either. Some, if not many, of them are simply politicians looking to stay employed and willing to bend with the wind in order to reach that goal.

childeye 2 · Sep 29, 2019

Trump is using the same socialistic tools other Presidents have used. Corporations are a factional socialist construct also. So long as businesses can be taxed by government entities, it can be called a form of socialism.

zephcom · Sep 29, 2019

MorkandMindy said:
Hillary's support was from the elite (weapons makers, she spoke at banks...) and the middle class, I describe that as her coalition.

Donald's support was from the workers and to a small extent from the elite, well so he hoped. But cut their taxes a few percent and they still didn't call the media off or do anything useful so I think that was an honest mistake. Most politicians feed the sharks, but it doesn't always work.

The gullibility might be said to be among the Hillary supporters for believing the media description of her as moderate left, while she told the banks she was in the elite and her actual policies were against the workers and for increasing the wealth of the middle class and the elite.

I think her support base knew that but it was just something you don't talk about. They liked to pretend to themselves that sending jobs to China would be fine because the unemployed worker's wives would get food stamps.

There was no delusion among many of the actual workers like myself as to what she was doing.

The topic is not about Hilary Clinton and what her supporters 'wanted'. The topic is about Donald Trump and what we are actually getting.

I think we are in the process of transitioning America's economy into a government controlled socialist economy. It may even begin looking more and more like the Chinese economy where businesses are expected to rebuild their business models to conform to government decrees.

We aren't there yet. But if we allow ourselves to be blinded by the need to defend one's personal political hero and not evaluate what is actually happening on the ground, it can become a process which the people will never be able to stop.

OTOH, rank and file Republicans just might actually prefer a socialized economy where businesses are largely controlled by government.

childeye 2 · Sep 29, 2019

grasping the after wind said:
Trump does not have an ideological mind set. When it comes to foreign relations he has an us ( as in US) vs them ( anyone or anything that he sees as opposing US interests) mind set. He was after all a Democrat for years and could be one again if it was convenient for him. Republicans are not necessarily conservative ideologues either. Some, if not many, of them are simply politicians looking to stay employed and willing to bend with the wind in order to reach that goal.

I agree with your post although I'd guess that Trump's mindset would be founded on some sort of an ideology.

SoldierOfTheKing · Sep 29, 2019

zephcom said:
Now one can debate whether America should even be involved in military issues in the Middle East or not, but ordering private businesses to stop doing business with China simply because China is playing the economic game better than us certainly sounds to me like social engineering.

China is playing the economic game better because it practices such social engineering.

zephcom said:
I think we are in the process of transitioning America's economy into a government controlled socialist economy.

The US abandoned laissez-faire as early as the 30's...

Sparagmos · Sep 29, 2019

zephcom said:
The topic is not about Hilary Clinton and what her supporters 'wanted'. The topic is about Donald Trump and what we are actually getting.

I think we are in the process of transitioning America's economy into a government controlled socialist economy. It may even begin looking more and more like the Chinese economy where businesses are expected to rebuild their business models to conform to government decrees.

We aren't there yet. But if we allow ourselves to be blinded by the need to defend one's personal political hero and not evaluate what is actually happening on the ground, it can become a process which the people will never be able to stop.

OTOH, rank and file Republicans just might actually prefer a socialized economy where businesses are largely controlled by government.

Can you name a country that has the type of totally hands-off capitalism you describe that is stable and doing well economically? I’m not aware of any.

grasping the after wind · Sep 29, 2019

childeye 2 said:
I agree with your post although I'd guess that Trump's mindset would be founded on some sort of an ideology.

Maybe a very individualistic one that you could label Trumpism but the basic tenets of that ideology would be very flexible and not at all carved in stone. Something along the lines of whatever Trump is doing at the moment is the best, largest , most perfect etc. thing to do.

Speedwell · Sep 29, 2019

grasping the after wind said:
Maybe a very individualistic one that you could label Trumpism but the basic tenets of that ideology would be very flexible and not at all carved in stone. Something along the lines of whatever Trump is doing at the moment is the best, largest , most perfect etc. thing to do.

Of all politicians of recent memory, Trump stands out as doing the best job of reflecting the aspirations of his core supporters. He will do whatever he thinks they want.

grasping the after wind · Sep 29, 2019

Speedwell said:
Of all politicians of recent memory, Trump stands out as doing the best job of reflecting the aspirations of his core supporters. He will do whatever he thinks they want.

I'm not so sure he is that unique. Except that maybe he doesn't see the need to keep who his actual core supporters hidden from the people he needs votes from unlike in a situation where those voters are under the impression they are the core supporters when they are not.

zephcom · Sep 29, 2019

SoldierOfTheKing said:
China is playing the economic game better because it practices such social engineering.

The US abandoned laissez-faire as early as the 30's...

So what you are saying is that the economic game is best played through social engineering? It that is so, then perhaps we should ask whether 'winning' at the economic game is worth the cost?

There is no doubt that America -has- interfered with pure capitalism in the past. It should be noted, though, that much of that interference was an effort to protect citizens and environment from being damaged by capitalism. It wasn't done to restructure the game itself to better allow American capitalism to 'win' against global competition.

zephcom · Sep 29, 2019

Sparagmos said:
Can you name a country that has the type of totally hands-off capitalism you describe that is stable and doing well economically? I’m not aware of any.

Does your diversion matter? I'm concerned that AMERICANS may not be aware that it is becoming evident that the AMERICAN economy is being modified into a government controlled economy.

We certainly have not been told the process is happening. We have not been asked whether we think it is a good idea.

We might even think it IS a good idea to have government overseeing all the activity of American business. But we have not been given the chance to express how we feel about it. Our government has taken it upon itself to make the change.

Sparagmos · Sep 29, 2019

zephcom said:
Does your diversion matter? I'm concerned that AMERICANS may not be aware that it is becoming evident that the AMERICAN economy is being modified into a government controlled economy.

We certainly have not been told the process is happening. We have not been asked whether we think it is a good idea.

We might even think it IS a good idea to have government overseeing all the activity of American business. But we have not been given the chance to express how we feel about it. Our government has taken it upon itself to make the change.

We haven’t had laissez-faire capitalism in this country for a very long time, if at all. Most of us believe that some government intervention is good. If you think otherwise, you should be able to point to a place where it is working.

I think the social democracies of Northern Europe are a good economic model. What do you think is a good model?

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