Whats the next best thing to be if you are not a christian?

Ophiolite said:

It makes total sense, it just seems incredibly self-serving. ME, ME, ME all the way.

I just think someone who devotes themselves to the welfare of others is better than someone who focuses on their own salvation, their own relationship with God, their own sense that they are not an accident. Certainly there are many Christians of whom this - the devotion to others - is also true. It just does not appear to be a prerequisite of Christian behaviour. (I base that on my personal observations and upon many of the views expressed by Christians on this forum.)

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So ....

What other religion has as a major commandment to love their neighbor as themselves?

That doesn’t sound all me. me. me.

As a matter of fact, the countries that most value human life, that each person created in the image of God, has been given human rights and dignity from God.

To not look at the teachings of Christianity is not fair on your part in your description.

It is problematic to base one’s views on a perception and not the actual teaching.

ToBeLoved said:

So ....

What other religion has as a major commandment to love their neighbor as themselves?

That doesn’t sound all me. me. me.

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I was specifically addressing your words. Here is what you said. I've added some emphases to call attention to what I was addressing.


For me, having god to pray to and the reward of having a relationship with the god who created me. To know that I am not just a random accident, but have been created by God for a relationship in this life, to be adopted as a son/daughter and to be a co-heir with Christ to the Father. That my relationship with God will continue for all eternity and that I will reside with God in heaven, free from sin, sickness and pain.

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but you appeared to suggest that these were things that made a Christian life better than the selfless atheist/agnostic who devoted himself to others. Feel free to clarify.

ananda said:

Has that been your personal experience?

In my own experience, I realize that I help others if I perceive how it helps "me"*, makes "me" feel better, or prevents "me" from feeling worse. I see this in others around me as well, and it seems to be the only explanation as to why we help some & don't invest resources in helping the many, many billions others in the world who are also in need of help.

*I put "me" in quotes because, in Buddhism, the sense of self often includes our family, relatives, loved ones, friends, etc. We seek to help them because they are all to some relative degree part of our own identity, and if harm comes to them, it harms "me". Our help extends to them to the degree we feel they are part of our self.

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I think this is especially true in cases where one's
empathic traits are enhanced. I've gotten to the point
where I have a hard time being even justifiably
indignant about something without compassion for the
perceived antagonist in the situation kicking in almost
immediately.

If I so much as formulate, in my mind, an insult to hurl
at someone, that insult hurts my own feelings just as if
it were directed at me personally, even though that
insult never gets uttered in the first place. Once again,
compassion kicks in. It's so annoying!

At the rate I'm going, I'll never get to be involved in a
bar fight. ("RayJeena, you were supposed to hit 'em, not
hug 'em!")

-

Ophiolite said:

I was specifically addressing your words. Here is what you said. I've added some emphases to call attention to what I was addressing.


For me, having god to pray to and the reward of having a relationship with the god who created me. To know that I am not just a random accident, but have been created by God for a relationship in this life, to be adopted as a son/daughter and to be a co-heir with Christ to the Father. That my relationship with God will continue for all eternity and that I will reside with God in heaven, free from sin, sickness and pain.

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but you appeared to suggest that these were things that made a Christian life better than the selfless atheist/agnostic who devoted himself to others. Feel free to clarify.

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I was sharing why I feel my life is made better by Christ. My walk with God.

To which you responded that that seems very me. Me. Me orientated.

Why would I not share my own experience and how does that show selfishness or what you stated at all?

You speak about some human kindness for others that rarely exists outside the context of faith at all.

You seem to be ‘dreaming’ about a world that doesn’t exist that you seem to state as reality.

Let’s talk reality and not non existent moral standards you think non believers have. that doesn’t exist.

People may be nice people, but some superior morality is complete fiction

ToBeLoved said:

I was sharing why I feel my life is made better by Christ. My walk with God.

To which you responded that that seems very me. Me. Me orientated.

Why would I not share my own experience and how does that show selfishness or what you stated at all?

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Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes, for I do not seem to be conveying my point at all. Let's try it this way.
1. The OP asked what would be the next best thing to being a Christian.
2. I responded by suggesting that an alternative question would be is there something better than being a Christian.
3. I offered a suggestion of what that might be: "an individual who humbly devotes themselves selflessly to the well being of others, while being certain that there is no afterlife, no reward in heaven for a life committed in this way."
4. You asked why this would be superior, which puzzled me, since I had laid out my explanation: the individual would be doing good with no reward of eternal life.
5. I asked you why you felt a Christian life would be superior and you replied with an explanation of why your life would be better.
6. So, I'm am back to asking you, what is there about a Christian life that is superior to the selfless behaviour I gave as an example?

ToBeLoved said:

You speak about some human kindness for others that rarely exists outside the context of faith at all.

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That is a presumption and a rather offensive one.

ToBeLoved said:

Let’s talk reality and not non existent moral standards you think non believers have. that doesn’t exist.

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So, you are stating, rather clearly that my moral standards are non-existent. Really? Do you want to rethink that statement? If not, I think we are done here.

all or nothing my friend..

Ophiolite said:

Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes, for I do not seem to be conveying my point at all. Let's try it this way.
1. The OP asked what would be the next best thing to being a Christian.
2. I responded by suggesting that an alternative question would be is there something better than being a Christian.
3. I offered a suggestion of what that might be: "an individual who humbly devotes themselves selflessly to the well being of others, while being certain that there is no afterlife, no reward in heaven for a life committed in this way."
4. You asked why this would be superior, which puzzled me, since I had laid out my explanation: the individual would be doing good with no reward of eternal life.
5. I asked you why you felt a Christian life would be superior and you replied with an explanation of why your life would be better.
6. So, I'm am back to asking you, what is there about a Christian life that is superior to the selfless behaviour I gave as an example?

That is a presumption and a rather offensive one.

So, you are stating, rather clearly that my moral standards are non-existent. Really? Do you want to rethink that statement? If not, I think we are done here.

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I said that the scenario you presented is not realistic.

It is a Lifetime movie of wouldn’t it be nice if ..... this happened.

This is not meant as an insult to you, but rather to show an idea that is not realistic and doesn’t happen, is a hope.

I hope 300,000 babies will not be aborted next year.

Next year they’ll probably break a record in the number of babies killed.

Hope is nice but rarely happens.

I responded to the scenario you presented not you personally.

dms1972 said:

I know some may object to the question itself, and please reply if you do object for i want to hear those.

But I got to wondering if one cannot make the transition to be a fully fledged christian (and thats what I struggle with) is there something else I can convert to on the way.

The reason I think some may object is because they will say there is no next best, if you are not trusting in Jesus Christ, you are lost, and when you die it doesn't matter what your philosophy of life was, you will find yourself in a lost eternity. I understand that view. But I still struggle with becoming a christian. I am beginning to think I might be an ex-christian but again some will likely object to that term "ex-christian" because they believe in the perseverance of the saints, and they would say such people never were born-again to begin with.

Anyway what ever your take even if you are critical of the question please respond as I want to hear all views.

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I was going to say a dog, but, all Corgi's are Christian

dms1972 said:

Anyway what ever your take even if you are critical of the question please respond as I want to hear all views.

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Having thought about it and about all the ones mentioned already, I might suggest Judaism or Baha'i. I thought of Unitarian-Universalism, but it is more political than religious nowadays.

dms1972 said:

Baha'i seized upon me in my teens I believe after thinking about it - and I fought vainly to keep hold of my christianity. I can't say I know a lot about it. Some people think one is better to be either one thing or the other, and not embrace several religions. But I have a struggle with syncretism too.

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Yeh, it was a toughie of a question you put to me because I really cannot think a good alternative UNLESS there is some particular complaint against Christianity that I don't know of. Judaism is of course considered legalistic or exclusivistic by many non-Jews, and Baha'i is not really as synergistic or ecumenical as it says it is.

dms1972 said:

I know some may object to the question itself, and please reply if you do object for i want to hear those.

But I got to wondering if one cannot make the transition to be a fully fledged christian (and thats what I struggle with) is there something else I can convert to on the way.

The reason I think some may object is because they will say there is no next best, if you are not trusting in Jesus Christ, you are lost, and when you die it doesn't matter what your philosophy of life was, you will find yourself in a lost eternity. I understand that view. But I still struggle with becoming a christian. I am beginning to think I might be an ex-christian but again some will likely object to that term "ex-christian" because they believe in the perseverance of the saints, and they would say such people never were born-again to begin with.

Anyway what ever your take even if you are critical of the question please respond as I want to hear all views.

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"You should choose the path that is most harmonious
to you and your surroundings"

Was the answer to a student from a Sage

Fluttering around here and there is not such a good idea,
no one can live on crumbs alone.

ToBeLoved said:

So ....

What other religion has as a major commandment to love their neighbor as themselves?

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The Jews?

Leviticus 19:18
Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.


Leviticus 19:34
The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.


Deuteronomy 10:19
And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.

dms1972 said:

Do you know anyone who lives this way consistently? Our culture and media in the west seems to condition us toward putting oneself first. How would you suggest one can overcome selfishness?

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Why are you introducing the requirement that they should do this consistently? I've seen reports of many instances of ordinary people who have made a difference in their community in various ways, putting others before themselves. All the time? Probably not, but so what?

Frankly, it is irrelevant whether one person has done this, or one million, or one billion. My initial remark was a question: would we not consider someone who acted selflessly for others, without any expectation of a reward in an afterlife, be a "better" person than a practising Christian?
Rather than answer that question ToBeLoved has preferred to argue (ineffectively) that, firstly, Christians are definitely better, and secondly, the type of person I have posited does not (indeed cannot) exist.

You ask how would I suggest one can overcome selfishness.
1. I'm not clear in what way that question is relevant to your OP.
2. I'm not clear in what way that question is relevant to anything I have posted.
3. I'm not clear why you think I might have some insight into combating selfishness.

That said, here are my cursory thoughts on the matter. Rather than think in terms of selfishness we would be better to think in terms of responsibility. A very young child is responsible only for themselves. They must learn, with parental guidance, not to put their hand in a fire, or to run out into traffic. Since their responsibility is inward looking they may be perceived as selfish.

Then the parents extend the responsibility, "Let Jane play with your toys for a while", making the child partially responsible for the happiness of their sibling. When we accept responsibility for others, and act upon that acceptance, selfishness is automatically subdued or eliminated.

So, my solution is to accept responsibility. The more responsibility we accept the more difficult it becomes to be selfish. Of course, you may then reasonably ask, how do we get people to accept responsibility? That would be a political question and this is Ethics and Morality.

Ophiolite said:

Rather than answer that question ToBeLoved has preferred to argue (ineffectively) that, firstly, Christians are definitely better, and secondly, the type of person I have posited does not (indeed cannot) exist.

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It would be nice if I was accurately represented in what I did say.

First, I did not say Christians are better.

What I said is that we have a reason for doing positive or good things because those are the commands of our Lord and Savior.

Second, I did not say that morality
and good cannot exist, I said it rarely does happen outside of a faith based reason for doing good, particularly at the very high level of self sacrifice you had stated.

Glad to clear up those inaccuracies

Carry on

ToBeLoved said:

It would be nice if I was accurately represented in what I did say.

First, I did not say Christians are better.

What I said is that we have a reason for doing positive or good things because those are the commands of our Lord and Savior.

Second, I did not say that morality
and good cannot exist, I said it rarely does happen outside of a faith based reason for doing good, particularly at the very high level of self sacrifice you had stated.

Glad to clear up those inaccuracies

Carry on

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I am happy to accept your corrections, however the errors, at least in part, arose from ambiguity in your posts. I asked very specifically "In what way do think a Christian life would be superior?" You responded to that. You gave examples of "things". I'm not sure how I was meant to know those things were not meant to be answer to my question.

You just said this: "Second, I did not say that morality and good cannot exist, "

However, that is exactly what I understood by this statement of yours here.
"Let’s talk reality and not non existent moral standards you think non believers have. that doesn’t exist."

Apparently you meant something other than what that appears to me to say and I accept that.

Ophiolite said:

I am happy to accept your corrections, however the errors, at least in part, arose from ambiguity in your posts. I asked very specifically "In what way do think a Christian life would be superior?" You responded to that. You gave examples of "things". I'm not sure how I was meant to know those things were not meant to be answer to my question.

You just said this: "Second, I did not say that morality and good cannot exist, "

However, that is exactly what I understood by this statement of yours here.
"Let’s talk reality and not non existent moral standards you think non believers have. that doesn’t exist."

Apparently you meant something other than what that appears to me to say and I accept that.

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We are like two ships passing in the night.

That’s ok. It was lovely talking with you.

It is hard for people with no belief in God to understand the things of God or the worldview of anyone different than themselves.

Hypotheticals are nice in theory and many people like discussing them endlessly