Calvinism is (the) Gospel

CharismaticLady · Sep 28, 2019

Justified Sinner said:
Please read the whole thing that I said. Works are required. We are guilty of violating the holy law of God so we can't do those works. Jesus can and did. We are save by the perfect work of Christ. Jesus fulfilled the law so he earned our salvation for us. Yes, Calvinists believe works are necessary and Jesus did the works for us..

The Reformation started with Martin Luther. He said "even if we commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day they will not separate us from Christ."

Is this also what Calvinists believe?

CharismaticLady · Sep 28, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
I agree that Calvinism, predestination, the fact that God foreknows and determined at the foundation of the world who would be his elect is essential to the Gospel that both Aussie and St. Paul preached.

Who is Aussie?

Justified Sinner · Sep 28, 2019

Yes. We're saved by grace. Jesus perfectly obeyed the law of God for us. We have been justified by faith (Rom 5:1).

And you should hope what Luther said is true. We all commit murder, adultery, idolatry, coveting, theft, etc. numerous times a day. Numerous times or 1,000 times, it doesn't matter. We violate the holy law of God multiple times a day. Multiply that by 365, we violate the holy law of God thousands of times a year. Multiply that times your age, the number skyrockets. Have you confessed every sin you ever committed? Not likely. I know I haven't because I don't even know all of them.

You see, committing those sins happen in our hearts and minds, not just our actions. And committing one of these sins (in thought, word, or deed) one time is worthy of eternal damnation. We stand guilty in Adam so each one of us is already worthy of damnation. We add to our guilt every day. So you better hope what Luther said is true, which I do. If what he said isn't true, we are all damned with no hope.

Don't be fooled. You and I sin constantly. And our good works are tainted by sin, so our good works aren't even good (Is 64:6).

Antinomian? No. We are obligated to obey the law of God, which we can't do because sin still lives in us (Rom 7:7-25; Struggling with Sin: The Parasite that Causes Chaos). We are not obligated to obey to be saved. We are obligated to obey because we are saved. We are God's children so He expects us to obey, but He knows we won't. So He covers us by the blood of Christ (Rom 5:20-21). Furthermore, as I said in my post above, Paul was speaking against Antinomianism in Romans 6:1-5. We've been united to Christ in His death so we died to sin. How can we keep living in it? We are now called to walk in newness of life (Rom 6:1-5).

I will say this, if a person is a perpetual murderer or adulterer, I don't believe they're actually a true believer. However, there are true believers who were perpetual adulterers (or other sin). I don't doubt their salvation. One such man wrote Amazing Grace.

anna ~ grace · Sep 28, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
I've noticed this too with what limited exposure I've had to Roman Catholicism. Dare I say there are actually "reformed Catholics"?

Probably not in the sense that Reformed Christians (Calvinist) are thinking. But there has been a lot written by Catholic theologians and scholars about original sin, depravity, grace, God's gift of faith to us, and our complete dependence upon His grace which Reformed folks might find interesting, or find reverberates with them.

CharismaticLady · Sep 28, 2019

Justified Sinner said:
Yes. We're saved by grace. Jesus perfectly obeyed the law of God for us. We have been justified by faith (Rom 5:1).

And you should hope what Luther said is true. We all commit murder, adultery, idolatry, coveting, theft, etc. numerous times a day. Numerous times or 1,000 times, it doesn't matter. We violate the holy law of God multiple times a day. Multiply that by 365, we violate the holy law of God thousands of times a year. Multiply that times your age, the number skyrockets. Have you confessed every sin you ever committed? Not likely. I know I haven't because I don't even know all of them.

You see, committing those sins happen in our hearts and minds, not just our actions. And committing one of these sins (in thought, word, or deed) one time is worthy of eternal damnation. We stand guilty in Adam so each one of us is already worthy of damnation. We add to our guilt every day. So you better hope what Luther said is true, which I do. If what he said isn't true, we are all damned with no hope.

Don't be fooled. You and I sin constantly sin. And our good works are tainted by sin, so our good works aren't even good (Is 64:6).

Antinomian? No. We are obligated to obey the law of God, which we can't do because sin still lives in us (Rom 7:7-25; Struggling with Sin: The Parasite that Causes Chaos). We are not obligated to obey to be saved. We are obligate to obey because we are saved. We are God's children so He expects us to obey, but He knows we won't. So He covers us by the blood of Christ (Rom 5:20-21). Furthermore, as I said in my post above, Paul was speaking against Antinomianism in Romans 6:1-5. We've been united to Christ in His death so we died to sin. How can we keep living in it? We are now called to walk in newness of life (Rom 6:1-5).

I will say this, if a person is a perpetual murderer or adulterer, I don't believe they're actually a true believer. However, there are true believers who were perpetual adulterers (or other sin). I don't doubt their salvation. One such man wrote Amazing Grace.

That is good to know that Luther's and Calvin's beliefs were basically the same about sin. No amount of sin separates us from Christ. So, do you know if both Lutherans and Calvinists believe in OSAS? Not all Protestants believe that.

Justified Sinner · Sep 28, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
That is good to know that Luther's and Calvin's beliefs were basically the same about sin. No amount of sin separates us from Christ. So, do you know if both Lutherans and Calvinists believe in OSAS? Not all Protestants believe that.

First, I forgot to add your quote in my last post so thanks for finding my post and responding. Sorry about that.

Second, Calvinists believe OSAS because our salvation is a work of God alone, based on His grace and the work of Christ (life, death, and resurrection) alone. Salvation is not based on my work, not even .01%. I'm already guilty, how can I become un-guilty? I can't. I need Jesus to pay for my sin and be righteous for me. You see, Jesus didn't just die for us. He lived a perfect life for us because we are guilty and worthy of condemnation.

I don't know if Lutherans believe in OSAS.

Third, I think the reason why many Protestants believe you can lose your salvation is that they have a distorted view of sin and salvation. They seem to think that sin is just outward. They fail to see that when a man looks at a woman lustfully, he commits adultery in his heart (Matt 5:27-30). Even the look is damnable. "It's OK to look, but not touch," is not true in the eyes of God. Furthermore, when he looks at her lustfully, he's only acting out the sin within. We can't be righteous on our own because sin still resides in us. No amount of good works on our part will save us. Our sin will always outdo our good works.

Concerning salvation, many think God saved us because we "made a decision for Jesus." That puts salvation in our hands. If we can make a decision for Jesus, certainly we can un-make that decision, so the thinking goes. However, if God were dependent on us to make a decision, none of us would be saved (Rom 8:7).

God doesn't do most of the work (providing the way), and we do the rest (decide to go that way). God does all the work in our salvation. Jesus died in our place, taking our sin on Himself. He lived a perfect life on our behalf because we can't. When we were spiritually dead, God made us alive with Christ (Eph 2:1-10). God even causes us to will and work for His pleasure (Ez 36:26-27; Phil 2:12-13). Our salvation is 100% the work of God. That's why we can't lose our salvation.

Silverback · Sep 28, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
That is good to know that Luther's and Calvin's beliefs were basically the same about sin. No amount of sin separates us from Christ. So, do you know if both Lutherans and Calvinists believe in OSAS? Not all Protestants believe that.

Well, getting a consistent answer from modern Lutheran Theologians on this issue is like trying to nail pudding to a tree.

If you read the Lutherans Confessions, You will see that Luther generally believed it was possible to fall into apostasy.

Most Lutherans would accept the reformed teaching of total depravity, and unconditional election, but have stopped short of embracing limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints. Perhaps not because they have a doctrinal adversity to these points, but because the support from God's word is not quite there.

Where this all ties into the doctrine of election, I'm not sure. Lutherans are more willing than most to say "the bible says this, but it also says that" so we will accept both without trying to reconcile the two.

The once saved, always saved has been an issue since at least the reformation.

I have no problem with Calvinism, all of their doctrine is clearly taught in scripture. Additionally, I have no problem with Lutheran teaching either...But what I think does not matter.

CharismaticLady · Sep 28, 2019

Justified Sinner said:
First, I forgot to add your quote in my last post so thanks for finding my post and responding. Sorry about that.

Second, Calvinists believe OSAS because our salvation is a work of God alone, based on His grace and the work of Christ (life, death, and resurrection) alone. Salvation is not based on my work, not even .01%. I'm already guilty, how can I become un-guilty? I can't. I need Jesus to pay for my sin and be righteous for me. You see, Jesus didn't just die for us. He lived a perfect life for us because we are guilty and worthy of condemnation.

I don't know if Lutherans believe in OSAS.

Third, I think the reason why many Protestants believe you can lose your salvation is that they have a distorted view of sin and salvation. They seem to think that sin is just outward. They fail to see that when a man looks at a woman lustfully, he commits adultery in his heart (Matt 5:27-30). Even the look is damnable. "It's OK to look, but not touch," is not true in the eyes of God. Furthermore, when he looks at her lustfully, he's only acting out the sin within. We can't be righteous on our own because sin still resides in us. No amount of good works on our part will save us. Our sin will always outdo our good works.

Concerning salvation, many think God saved us because we "made a decision for Jesus." That puts salvation in our hands. If we can make a decision for Jesus, certainly we can un-make that decision, so the thinking goes. However, if God were dependent on us to make a decision, none of us would be saved (Rom 8:7).

God doesn't do most of the work (providing the way), and we do the rest (decide to go that way). God does all the work in our salvation. Jesus died in our place, taking our sin on Himself. He lived a perfect life on our behalf because we can't. When we were spiritually dead, God made us alive with Christ (Eph 2:1-10). God even causes us to will and work for His pleasure (Ez 36:26-27; Phil 2:12-13). Our salvation is 100% the work of God. That's why we can't lose our salvation.

and @Silverback

What denomination names are Calvinist? Like Baptist? Presbyterian? Maybe something with "reformed" in the name, or is that not always the case? And Lutherans are a maybe...

nonaeroterraqueous · Sep 28, 2019

Silverback said:
RC Sproul is a leading reformed thinker, he is getting a bit elderly now, but I think he is still alive.

Actually, he died not long ago.

Justified Sinner said:
Second, Calvinists believe OSAS because our salvation is a work of God alone, based on His grace and the work of Christ (life, death, and resurrection) alone.

Arminian doctrine holds to OSAS in the sense that a person who genuinely accepts Christ can never fall away. Calvinist doctrine is not so much OSAS as it is the doctrine of election, which holds to the view that people can fall into and out of the faith, but the destiny of being ultimately saved is predetermined. It's a hindsight view. With OSAS, a person might say "the prayer" and regard himself saved in all events forever after. With the doctrine of election, it's always too soon to tell. We'll know when we get there.

renniks · Sep 28, 2019

JM said:
And I have my own private opinion, that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism. Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in his dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor, I think, can we preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the peculiar redemption which Christ made for his elect and chosen people; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation, after having believed. Such a gospel I abhor. The gospel of the Bible is not such a gospel as that. We preach Christ and him crucified in a different fashion, and to all gainsayers we reply, ‘We have not so learned Christ.’ [Spurgeon’s Sermons, vol. I (Baker Books, reprinted 2007), 88-89.]

Poor guy sure was confused.

The Righterzpen · Sep 28, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
and @Silverback

What denomination names are Calvinist? Like Baptist? Presbyterian? Maybe something with "reformed" in the name, or is that not always the case? And Lutherans are a maybe...

Usually "reformed" has "calvinistic" leanings. And that's usually presbyterian. That being said there are "reformed" baptists, lutherans and even to some extent Roman catholics.

And obviously "baptist" is identified usually as proponents of believers only baptism (they don't baptize babies).

Presbyterian is a type of church government and there are non-reformed presbyterians.

Lutherans were followers of Luther that first came out of the reformation. But not everyone who exited Roman Catholicism during the reformation were Lutherans. There were baptists, and anabaptist and Episcopal, Huguenots (which is a French word - although I'm not sure what it means off the top of my head; but they were "French Calvinists"); and the progenitors of what would become puritans in America. Etc. There were a lot of groups.

Silverback · Sep 28, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
and @Silverback

What denomination names are Calvinist? Like Baptist? Presbyterian? Maybe something with "reformed" in the name, or is that not always the case? And Lutherans are a maybe...

There are many reformed denominations, here are a few:

-Presbyterians (Most)
-Christian Reformed Church
-Reformed Church in America
-Baptist (some, small number)
-Anglicans (some, small number)

The Presbyterians are probably the largest group, but there are many off shoots of Presbyterians, and the the largest group, Presbyterian Church-USA, almost exclusively preaches the social gospel, much like the Episcopal Church.

Most Lutherans would not consider themselves reformed, but their could be outliers.

Justified Sinner · Sep 28, 2019

nonaeroterraqueous said:
With the doctrine of election, it's always too soon to tell. We'll know when we get there.

I'm not sure this is an accurate view of election. Presbyterians and Reformed believe in assurance of salvation. There's no wait and see. In fact, the Westminster Confession has a section on this (WCF 18).

Silverback · Sep 28, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Usually "reformed" has "calvinistic" leanings. And that's usually presbyterian. That being said there are "reformed" baptists, lutherans and even to some extent Roman catholiabaptist

And obviously "baptist" is identified usually as proponents of believers only baptism (they don't baptize babies).

Presbyterian is a type of church government and there are non-reformed presbyterians.

Lutherans were followers of Luther that first came out of the reformation. But not everyone who exited Roman Catholicism during the reformation were Lutherans. There were baptists, and anabaptist and Episcopal, Huguenots (which is a French word - although I'm not sure what it means off the top of my head; but they were "French Calvinists"); and the progenitors of what would become puritans in America. Etc. There were a lot of groups.

There were forerunners to the Reformation within the Clergy of The Catholic Church, but information is hard to come by, since Most probably faced some type of terrible death.I

The Moravian reformer John Huss actually preceded Martin Luther by many decades, he just didn't catch on to the same degree. He was burned at the stake.

The large groups that came out of the Reformation
Were:

-Lutherans
-Reformed
-Anglicans
-Anabaptist

Most of the thousands of Protestant denominations were offshoots of these four traditions. There were others though.

CharismaticLady · Sep 28, 2019

Silverback said:
There were forerunners to the Reformation within the Clergy of The Catholic Church, but information is hard to come by, since Most probably faced some type of terrible death.I

The Moravian reformer John Huss actually preceded Martin Luther by many decades, he just didn't catch on to the same degree. He was burned at the stake.

The large groups that came out of the Reformation
Were:

-Lutherans
-Reformed
-Anglicans
-Anabaptist

Most of the thousands of Protestant denominations were offshoots of these four traditions. There were others though.

Did John Huss differ in any way doctrinally from Luther?

The Righterzpen · Sep 28, 2019

Silverback said:
There were forerunners to the Reformation within the Clergy of The Catholic Church, but information is hard to come by, since Most probably faced some type of terrible death.I

The Moravian reformer John Huss actually preceded Martin Luther by many decades, he just didn't catch on to the same degree. He was burned at the stake.

The large groups that came out of the Reformation
Were:

-Lutherans
-Reformed
-Anglicans
-Anabaptist

Most of the thousands of Protestant denominations were offshoots of these four traditions. There were others though.

There have always been schisms. The eastern and western church split (at least unofficially) not too long after Constantine. You're right in the sense that a lot was going on before Luther. He was just the last gallon of water that broke the proverbial dam.

And yes, I'm aware that most of the denominations that exist today are post reformation. Post Luther, there were a lot of people trying to figure out / write / nail down exactly what they believed. Thus a lot of catechisms and confessions and other such type documents penned. That takes time.

Then on top of that; once we hit the latter half of the 19th century into the 20th century that a lot of past convictions and doctrinal interpretations of Scripture fall by the way side. Things like dispensationalism and the modern tongues movement come into play; which opens the door to the arise of extra Scriptural denominations like Mormonism and other various groups that are often labeled as cults.

The Righterzpen · Sep 28, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Did John Huss differ in any way doctrinally from Luther?

You may have to dig into a more theologically orientated source to find your answer; but for what benefit an encyclopedia may hold; here's an article on Huss.

Jan Hus | Bohemian religious leader

Shrewd Manager · Sep 28, 2019

Calvinism - for God so hated the world that he sent His only begotten son so that most might burn in hell for eternity.

Ah limited atonement, double predestination, penal substitution, damnation. Really honouring God's holy name there.

The Righterzpen · Sep 28, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
Calvinism - for God so hated the world that he sent His only begotten son so that most might burn in hell for eternity.

Ah limited atonement, double predestination, penal substitution, damnation. Really honouring God's holy name there.

Do you deserve redemption?

Shrewd Manager · Sep 29, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Do you deserve redemption?

Certainly not if I go around slandering the Most High. And you?

Calvinism is (the) Gospel

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