Question... Was there ever an apology?

timothyu said:

Then why did they reject the will of God to cozy up with the world? Was the power and authourity just a big mistake they never intended?

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Why does anyone cozy up to the world, in any way? Are individuals ever totally immune to this-except for a few saints/aesthetes perhaps who've ran with the ball God has given us better than most? The point is that God can-and must- preserve intact the "deposit of faith" that He's given the Church, in spite of our weaknesses, or else we'd all be without a way to have assurance in regard to to our beliefs.

You should check out the 2nd Council of Orange and its decrees and canons, and consider that this was convened by the Catholic Church some 200 years after Constantine "legalized" Christianity. And consider that God, working in His own, sometimes mysterious ways, can use the agenda and even intrigues of man to ultimately preserve and spread and advance His kingdom, again, in spite of ourselves and in this case a possibly less than perfect alliance.

timothyu said:

By the way.. would either of you two like to abandon the ways of man for a moment, and answer the OP yes or no?

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Yes.

Not everyone can completely do that though. Even the apostle Paul talked about doing that which is against his will and he hates.

But giving up on the world should be the goal of every Christian. Which is precisely why monastic writings are so highly taught in the church. Strict fasting, repentance and prayer are required to be properly participating in the Holy Mysteries.

☦Marius☦ said:

The very essence became Christian. Having similar holidays does not mean that the church was overcome with Paganism. Most of Catholic Christianities "pagan" traditions are either based on Judaism, or on the fulfillment of monotheistic Greek philosophy. The small cultural things that remained hardly mattered because they had the polytheistic narrative taken from them. People seem to think that Paganism is bad because it is "religious", but Paganism was primarily bad because it was a corruption of true worship, and the worship of false God's. Remove those two things and whatever remains is perfectly fine.

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As I read through the OP and the subsequent responses, what comes to mind is what I've written below. I don't mean to sound like I dragged out the soapbox...or that I think I'm some sort of standard. I'm not. God's word is the standard, fleshed out in Jesus. This is just how I put the pieces together, and you are welcome to read on for what's it's worth.

Along the same lines as the post above, I've often wondered why the Church/the believers found it necessary to replace the God-assigned annual celebrations with an emphasis on celebrations that looked like their pagan roots. It reminds me that a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. But if we begin to think that we can worship God in any way that we choose, isn't it a little (or a lot) like Aaron's sons with the strange fire? Could we re-write the other 9 Commandments and think God was OK with lying, adultery, dishonoring parents, stealing?

It's clear that as a culture we the believers collectively historically got into a place where our own rules trump what God clearly told us to do and started doing things He clearly told us NOT to do, and the majority are still doing it. As for me, I repented. It is the closest thing I can do to an apology. I simply choose not to behave in those ways. I was raised with all the standard American holidays, but in addition to being empty, I now reckon them to be outright wrong. Because God gave me control of this life (it's called self-control, fruit of His Spirit), and out of deep respect for the love with which He loved me, I choose not to murder/I monitor my heart against hate and disrespect, and I choose not to commit adultery/I monitor my heart against lust. In that same way I add all diligence to respond with a heart intent on obedience to the best application of His law all the way through every aspect of my life from my heart. His law defines righteousness, and in Christ He has made me righteous. To do less would be to disrespect this wonderful salvation. I have not been reckoned by God to be righteous in order to continue deliberately missing the mark.

Oddly, this message is often perceived as rebellious and divisive. I find that interesting. We do have a strange culture in the Church and in America. But I don't have any control over what anyone else is thinking or saying, and if they are going in a different direction than what I see from what God says, I can't go that way. When I started separating out what I had been taught by churches/man from what the Scriptures say, I found I had to set many ideas aside. It became apparent that I am responsible for the beam in my own eye to work on fixing it, my own answer of a good conscience towards God, my own acts of obedience to what He clearly spells out, and maintaining my own jars of oil and lamp when the Bridegroom comes. We'll find out on that great day whether it was the right way to go, but it's the closest to that narrow way Jesus told us about that I've found.

One of the mushrooming effects of religion of every kind is when we set our own brains aside to have some sort of approval into a group and it does indeed become an opiate of the masses. It's so sad. God wants that relationship with each of us, not some sort of nod in His direction and then on to what the group decides. The way I add it up, the OP was a call to see that and repent - individually. It would likely not be possible to do this as a group or we'd just be perpetuating the situation for the next huge error. There is no US against THEM. There wasn't for the Pharisee, and there isn't for US. We are all the sinner head down asking for forgiveness - that is, if we want the justification that Jesus said the sinner received from God.

No soapbox here. I do offer any encouragement to believe Him and walk with Him according to how He told us and share the encouragement around to anyone who will hear it. What a precious opportunity He's given us to walk in His Spirit!

timothyu said:

Obeying the law first and foremost is putting the will of the Father before the will of man, and second loving all as self. Would those that do so break human laws? Why point towards human laws when it is God's that is supposed to be a priority. See how easy it is for the adversary to twist things?

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Religious Blabity blah

See Today at 2:18 PM#65

Greengardener said:

As I read through the OP and the subsequent responses, what comes to mind is what I've written below. I don't mean to sound like I dragged out the soapbox...or that I think I'm some sort of standard. I'm not. God's word is the standard, fleshed out in Jesus. This is just how I put the pieces together, and you are welcome to read on for what's it's worth.

Along the same lines as the post above, I've often wondered why the Church/the believers found it necessary to replace the God-assigned annual celebrations with an emphasis on celebrations that looked like their pagan roots. It reminds me that a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. But if we begin to think that we can worship God in any way that we choose, isn't it a little (or a lot) like Aaron's sons with the strange fire? Could we re-write the other 9 Commandments and think God was OK with lying, adultery, dishonoring parents, stealing?

It's clear that as a culture we the believers collectively historically got into a place where our own rules trump what God clearly told us to do and started doing things He clearly told us NOT to do, and the majority are still doing it. As for me, I repented. It is the closest thing I can do to an apology. I simply choose not to behave in those ways. I was raised with all the standard American holidays, but in addition to being empty, I now reckon them to be outright wrong. Because God gave me control of this life (it's called self-control, fruit of His Spirit), and out of deep respect for the love with which He loved me, I choose not to murder/I monitor my heart against hate and disrespect, and I choose not to commit adultery/I monitor my heart against lust. In that same way I add all diligence to respond with a heart intent on obedience to the best application of His law all the way through every aspect of my life from my heart. His law defines righteousness, and in Christ He has made me righteous. To do less would be to disrespect this wonderful salvation. I have not been reckoned by God to be righteous in order to continue deliberately missing the mark.

Oddly, this message is often perceived as rebellious and divisive. I find that interesting. We do have a strange culture in the Church and in America. But I don't have any control over what anyone else is thinking or saying, and if they are going in a different direction than what I see from what God says, I can't go that way. When I started separating out what I had been taught by churches/man from what the Scriptures say, I found I had to set many ideas aside. It became apparent that I am responsible for the beam in my own eye to work on fixing it, my own answer of a good conscience towards God, my own acts of obedience to what He clearly spells out, and maintaining my own jars of oil and lamp when the Bridegroom comes. We'll find out on that great day whether it was the right way to go, but it's the closest to that narrow way Jesus told us about that I've found.

One of the mushrooming effects of religion of every kind is when we set our own brains aside to have some sort of approval into a group and it does indeed become an opiate of the masses. It's so sad. God wants that relationship with each of us, not some sort of nod in His direction and then on to what the group decides. The way I add it up, the OP was a call to see that and repent - individually. It would likely not be possible to do this as a group or we'd just be perpetuating the situation for the next huge error. There is no US against THEM. There wasn't for the Pharisee, and there isn't for US. We are all the sinner head down asking for forgiveness - that is, if we want the justification that Jesus said the sinner received from God.

No soapbox here. I do offer any encouragement to believe Him and walk with Him according to how He told us and share the encouragement around to anyone who will hear it. What a precious opportunity He's given us to walk in His Spirit!

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But thats not how it occured. Christian holidays were already set and when certain areas of Europe were Christianized, the holidays that were close together were merged in order to keep the day Holy,.

So for instance Yule. Yule was during the winter solstice I believe, and Nativity was very close (Old Calander its in January). So the thinking was that if they moved the Nativity celebration to the equinox it would basically Christianize yule and keep people from being tempted by a separate pagan holiday that involved many revelries.

However this was only really a Roman Catholic practice. Up until recently 100% of the Orthodox Church celebrate Nativity (Christmas) on its original day (The Greeks and some American churches use the Roman Calendar), and our Pascha celebrations (now western easter), keep to the calendar of the original passover period.

So no this practice didn't really start until about 800 years after Rome adopted Christianity, and well after the schism.

timothyu said:

Agreed


Yes they were the alternative that Jesus suggested to the ways of man. What they did got them away from the corruption of leadership in both man's government and church without rebellion, as Jesus suggested.

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But many when asked back into the world by the Church in order to help the faithful returned. There is still to be a work amongst the world. People have to farm and produce necessities and in order to do that government is needed. Not everyone can be celibate and basically starve themselves for life. On top of that evangelization of the world is a requirement.

There is a really bad understanding of politics here.

timothyu said:

They were useful tools to the church as the church was a useful tool to the governments of man. Who's power increased as a result? The monks's? The people's? God's? Nope. Such is the way of man. See it in action on the evening news.

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I would like to be in a government that promotes Christianism.

timothyu said:

They were useful tools to the church as the church was a useful tool to the governments of man. Who's power increased as a result? The monks's? The people's? God's? Nope. Such is the way of man. See it in action on the evening news.

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Sometimes thousands of men were saved. You are discrediting men you know literally nothing about and judging them on whether or not they are saved. Read the synaxerion then try to tell me you know what you are talking about.

timothyu said:

I would rather be in one that promotes the will of God, loving all as self. We already have your Christianism in DC and it's only interest is power.

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Liberal Democracy is inherently anti Christian. That being said there are still men devoted to God in our government.

timothyu said:

Absolutely. Jesus and His Kingdom were broadsided and all that followed were built upon the foundation of that era and official twist in the religion from will of God to will of man. Or do you think we should let this indiscretion off the hook the way we let Eve off?

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Sure. Go dig up Constantine and put him on trial. I will watch the YouTube video.