Why would God want the defeat of Japha and other cities rebelling against Rome in 66-70? (Solved)

rakovsky · Sep 27, 2019

I read Josephus' Wars of the Jews, and his Testimonium about Yeshua makes me think that he was probably a Messianic Jew. He ascribes the Romans' defeat of Japha and the First Century Jewish revolt to the Lord's will, but it isn't clear to me what reasons the Lord would have for that defeat. You don't have to agree with Josephus, and I know that it can be hard to discern the Lord's motives and involvement. But I think that Messianic believers might have insight into the underlined topic, due to their special dedication to Jewish traditions. So I would like to please ask how you might address that question?

In Book II, Chapter 16, Josephus recites Herod Agrippa II's speech to a Jewish audience, encouraging them to avoid war. After laying out the Romans' military prowess, he says:

The only refuge, then, left to you is divine assistance. But even this is ranged on the side of the Romans, for, without God's aid, so vast an empire could never have been built up. Consider, too the difficulty of preserving your religious rules from contamination, even were you engaging a less formidable foe; and how, if compelled to transgress the very principles on which you chiefly build your hopes of God's assistance, you will alienate Him from you. If you observe your sabbath customs and refuse to take any action on that day, you will undoubtedly be easily defeated, as were your forefathers by Pompey, who pressed the siege most vigorously on the days when the besieged remained inactive; if, on the contrary, you transgress the law of your ancestors, I fail to see what further object you will have for hostilities, since your one aim is to preserve inviolate all the institutions of your fathers. How could you invoke the aid of the Deity, after deliberately omitting to pay Him the service which you owe Him?
...
Spare the temple and preserve for yourselves the sanctuary with its holy places; for the Romans, once masters of these, will refrain their hands no more, seeing that their forbearance in the past met only with ingratitude. As for me, I call your sanctuary and God's holy angels and our common country to witness, that I have kept back nothing which could conduce to your preservation; as for you, if you decide aright, you will enjoy with me the blessings of peace, but if you let yourselves be carried away by your passion, you will face, without me, this tremendous peril.

Herod Agrippa II is saying that (A) the Lord must be on the Romans' side because they built up such a vast empire. (B) The rebels can't both observe the Torah and win, because if they rest on the Sabbath they will be defeated like under Pompey, and if they fight on the Sabbath, they will violate the Torah. (C) The rebels should avoid war to spare the Temple, because the Romans will ruin it, since the Romans will see that the rebels ignored the Romans' past restraint. (D) Rebellion carries tremendous peril, and the rebels would be carried away by their Passions if they rebelled.

I am not asking you to agree with, or even respond to, Herod Agrippa II's arguments. Just because an empire is vast doesn't mean the Lord supports it; generally, empires eventually collapse. Maybe the Lord could give an exception to resting on the Torah in war time. Instead, I am interested in your own answer to the question in the thread title. Please read my Message #7 below, where I quote Josephus' passage about Japha. (Why would the Lord want the defeat of Japha and other cities rebelling against Rome in 66-70 AD?)

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 27, 2019

If I remember correctly, Josephus was not saved not was he Messianic, so not all (if any) of his words can be relied upon. In every case, everything must be tested/ proven true before accepting.

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 27, 2019

rakovsky said:
(B) The rebels can't both observe the Torah and win, because if they rest on the Sabbath they will be defeated like under Pompey, and if they fight on the Sabbath, they will violate the Torah.

I believe Yahuweh Sovereign Creator delivered the Jews/ Israelites when they obeyed Him, and cursed or punished them when they disobeyed Him, or if they obeyed Him but they grumbled.

Basil the Great · Sep 27, 2019

Well..... we could ask a lot of questions like this one. Why did God not kill Hitler in the womb and spare Europe enormous misery and the loss of millions of Jews and Christians alike in World War II? Why did God not allow the Christians to succeed long term in winning the Holy Land back from the Muslims during the several Crusades? Why did God allow the Church to approve of torture for 564 years during the Holy Office of the Inquisition? Scores of like questions we could easily ask. Looking at history and looking around us now, it would appear that God does not directly intervene very often in the affairs of men and women, especially in a way that would impact thousands or millions of lives. Mitt Romney, a devout Mormon, even made a public statement a few years ago to the effect that God does not intervene all that often.

I am a Deist? No, I do believe in miracles. However, though I have heard of a few, I have never personally witnessed one and I dare say that very few of us here in Christian Forums have actually seen a definitive miracle. It would appear that true miracles are not all that common.

Basil the Great · Sep 27, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
I believe Yahuweh Sovereign Creator delivered the Jews/ Israelites when they obeyed Him, and cursed or punished them when they disobeyed Him, or if they obeyed Him but they grumbled.

You might be correct with your analysis.

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 27, 2019

Basil the Great said:
You might be correct with your analysis.

I did not have to analyze anything. (and don't know if that's a good idea to do so or not).

Even in early school years, and before that, with Grandma and Mom often reading Scripture to train me, I believed Scripture to be TRUTH, and never doubted it.

rakovsky · Sep 27, 2019

Thanks for your replies. You don't have to agree with my idea that Josephus was a Messianic believer in Yeshua. I basically looking for why the Lord would have wished the defeat of Japha and other cities rebelling against Rome. Let me give the passage about Japha that I mentioned earlier.

After giving Herod's speech in Book II, Josephus narrates the Romans' attack on the rebel city of Japha, and ascribes the Romans' victory to the Lord in Wars of the Jews, Book III, Chapter 7:

In the course of these days Vespasian dispatched Trajan, the commander of the tenth legion, with a thousand horse and two thousand foot, against a town in the vicinity of Jotapata, called Japha, which had revolted, encouraged by the surprising resistance of their neighbors at Jotapata. Trajan found a city presenting formidable difficulties, for in addition to its naturally strong situation, it was protected by a double ring of walls. However, its inhabitants ventured to advance to meet him, prepared, as he saw, for action; he charged them and, after a brief resistance, routed them and started in pursuit. They burst into the first enclosure, whither the Romans, following hard on their heels, penetrated with them. But when the fugitives rushed on to the second wall, their own fellow-citizens shut them out, for fear of the enemy forcing their way in at the same time. God, and no other, it was who made a present to the Romans of the wretched Galilaeans; it was He who now caused the population of the town to be excluded by the hands of their own people and delivered them to their murderous foes, to be exterminated to a man. Vainly did the swarming crowds batter the gates and implore the sentinels by their names to let them in: while their supplications were on their lips they were butchered.

You can read Wars of the Jews, Book III here:
Full text of "L 487 Josephus III The Jewish War 4 7"

In the passage above, Josephus is saying that Jotapata made surprising resistance, so Japha revolted and had formidable defenses. In Josephus' autobiography, his Vita, Josephus later said that when he was a local commander he had built up Japha's defenses, and Japha was one of Galilee's largest villages. Here in Wars of the Jews, he writes that Japha had natural advantages, a double wall ring, was prepared to fight, and its people attacked. But then the rebels retreated, and the city locked them out in fear of the Romans, thereby allowing the Romans to slaughter those in retreat. This turn of affairs apparently led Josephus to think that it must have been God who gave the Romans the ability to attack Japha's forces so easily. His idea must have been that the Romans themselves didn't try to trap the retreating forces, and that it doesn't make sense for the city to lock out its own defenders, so it must have been God's work.

Of course, this doesn't explain why God would give the Romans victory.

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 27, 2019

rakovsky said:
Of course, this doesn't explain why God would give the Romans victory.

Why wouldn't He give them victory ?
He always simply does as He Pleases.... as written in Scripture....
and who can know His Ways ? They are as high above man's ways as heaven is above the earth....

Johan_1988 · Sep 27, 2019

Remember what Jesus said, it happend, because they did not accept him:
Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luke 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luke 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luke 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Basil the Great · Sep 27, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Why wouldn't He give them victory ?
He always simply does as He Pleases.... as written in Scripture....
and who can know His Ways ? They are as high above man's ways as heaven is above the earth....

Well said, Jeff.

TreWalker · Sep 27, 2019

rakovsky said:
Of course, this doesn't explain why God would give the Romans victory.

During shacharit prayers we pray Deut 11 which speaks directly to this question. Specifically verses 16 & 17.

13 “Now if you listen obediently to My mitzvot that I am commanding you today—to love Adonai your God and to serve Him with all your heart and soul— 14 then I will give rain for your land in its season—the early rain and the late rains"—so that you may gather in your grain, new wine and olive oil. 15 I will give grass in your field for your livestock, and you will eat and be satisfied.

16 Watch yourselves, so your heart is not deceived, and you turn aside and serve other gods and worship them. 17 Then the anger of Adonai will be kindled against you, so He will shut up the sky so that there will be no rain and the soil will not yield its produce. Then you will perish quickly from the good land Adonai is giving you.

Some other verses that come to mind:

Leviticus 18:28
Do none of these things or the land will spit you out when you make it sinful, as it has spit out the nation that was before you.

Leviticus 20:22
‘Keep all My Laws and do what I tell you, so the land where I am bringing you to live will not spit you out.

Now, if you are familiar at all with the writings of our prophets you would recognize the warnings of exile AND the promises that remedy this situation for us. All dealing with the geulah/redemption and the coming of our Messiah.

rakovsky · Sep 27, 2019

YeshuaslaveJeff,
Sure, I am not treating Josephus' words as dogma. I invite you to read Josephus' apparently complimentary writings about Yeshua and His brother James here:
Josephus on the career and execution of Jesus.
When you say, "I believe Yahuweh Sovereign Creator delivered the Jews/ Israelites when they obeyed Him, and cursed or punished them when they disobeyed Him", it sounds like you would suggest that they weren't being obedient enough in the First Century. If so, how do you see that being the case?
I think that you are asking rhetorically when you say "and who can know His Ways?" I agree that this is a challenge for people to know specifically what God thinks or wishes in many matters, or why He does what He does.

rakovsky · Sep 27, 2019

Basil,
It sounds like you are saying that God probably didn't intervene in the 70 AD rebellion because He rarely intervenes, as you say, "Scores of like questions we could easily ask. Looking at history and looking around us now, it would appear that God does not directly intervene very often in the affairs of men and women, especially in a way that would impact thousands or millions of lives."
In Book III as I quoted in Message 7, Josephus is making the claim that God did intervene in the defeat of Japha because the Romans weren't the ones who arranged the trap of Japha's forces, and certainly the city of Japha hadn't planned for its own forces to be destroyed. They had a good defense system and were prepared for the battle, so it doesn't make sense that they would lock their own forces outside to get slaughtered. So he concludes that God's hand is the best explanation for that event.
Josephus came from the priestly line and seemed to be thinking that God's hand is revealed in such unexpected coincidences that would not normally make sense. Like if a person suddenly recovered from a major illness right after praying about it, Josephus would be the kind of person to perceive God's hand in that recovery.
Now, I am not arguing that you are wrong, but I want you to see how Josephus is looking at this. Maybe you could argue back that the city of Japha, despite being well prepared, was so overcome by fear that it did not think rationally and locked out its own defense forces even when they were crying to get back in.

rakovsky · Sep 27, 2019

Johan,
What you are saying must be a traditional Christian/Messianic-Jewish reading, that the defeat happened because the people did not accept Yeshua. You quoted His words in Luke's Gospel: "they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation." I think that this quote better applies to the Bar Kokhba revolt in c. 135 AD when Jerusalem as a city was ruined. In 70 AD there was ruination, but such an extreme one happened to the Temple in particular. Of course, the logic can also be applied to the 70 AD revolt: The people failed to recognize Him even in 70 AD, so the revolt failed disastrously.

To add to what you said, I think there is a practical explanation behind the words in the Gospel. Had the nation followed Him, they would not have risen up in a violent revolt because He was not trying to establish an earthly kingdom through military force, and He told people to pay taxes to Caesar.

rakovsky · Sep 27, 2019

Later in Book III Josephus gives his own take that the rebellion was failing in fulfillment of prophecy. In
Chapter 8, Josephus gives this narrative of the Roman tribune Nicanor's proposal that Josephus surrender:

But as Nicanor was urgently pressing his proposals and Josephus overheard the threats of the hostile crowd, suddenly there came back into his mind those nightly dreams, in which God had foretold to him the impending fate of the Jews and the destinies of the Roman sovereigns. He was an interpreter of dreams and skilled in divining the meaning of ambiguous utterances of the Deity; a priest himself and of priestly descent, he was not ignorant of the prophecies in the sacred books. At that hour he was inspired to read their meaning, and, recalling the dreadful images of his recent dreams, he offered up a silent prayer to God. 'Since it pleases thee,' so it ran, 'who didst create the Jewish nation, to break thy work, since fortune has wholly passed to the Romans, and since thou hast made choice of my spirit to announce the things that are to come, I willingly surrender to the Romans and consent to live; but I take thee to witness that I go, not as a traitor, but as thy minister.'

He says that God foretold the rebels' defeat to Josephus, and implies that the holy writings prophecied this, and he concludes that whereas God created the Jewish nation, He now wished to break it, although Josephus doesn't say why God wished that.

The Josephus.org website lists below what the website writer sees as Josephus' reasons for the defeat:

Why the Almighty Caused Jerusalem and His Temple to be Destroyed
The burning of Jerusalem and its Temple in 70 CE/AD created a profound dilemma for faithful Jews of the time. Hadn't religious observance throughout the land reached new heights in the years preceding the war? Wasn't the revolt against Rome directly the result of zealous people vowing to have "no master except the Lord?" (Ant. 18.1.6 23). Then why did the Lord allow the Romans to crush the revolt and destroy his Temple?

Josephus offered a variety of solutions to this problem. His overall goal was to defend the Jews against the accusation that their Lord had deserted them. A further goal, which he only hinted at, was to pave the way for approval by the Roman authorities, at some future time, for the rebuilding of the Temple.

Contents
Death of the High Priest
The Pollution of the City
Pollution of the Temple with Blood
Assassins in the Temple
--The Slaughter of the Guards
--The Murder of Zacharias
--The Lamentation of Josephus
The Fulfillment of Ancient Prophecies
The Temple is Set on Fire
A Comforting Thought
Omens of Destruction

Star and Comet
Light Around the Altar
Cow Gives Birth to Lamb
The Eastern Gate
Miraculous Phenomenon of Chariots in the Air
Sound of a Great Multitude
Jesus son of Ananias: A Voice from the East (A must-read.)

Prophecy of the Square Temple

SOURCE: Causes of the Temple's Destruction

Unfortunately, all the reasons above that the Josephus.org website gave were events that occurred after Japha's defeat in Book III, except for the omens. Some of the omens certainly happened before the war, like what Josephus tells about a prophet named Jesus Ben Ananus in Wars, Book VI:

Jesus son of Ananias: A Voice from the East

But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple [Sukkot, autumn, 62 CE], began on a sudden to cry aloud,

"A voice from the east,
a voice from the west,
a voice from the four winds,
a voice against Jerusalem and the Holy House,
a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides,
and a voice against this whole people!"

This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city.
However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before.
Hereupon the magistrates, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was,

"Woe, woe to Jerusalem!"

And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.

Personally, my guess is that Josephus is cryptically alluding to Yeshua in the story above above the prophet "Jesus", since both predicted the city's downfall, were rejected by the people's leaders, and were beaten by the Roman authorities. But anyway, an omen itself is not a reason why God would wish something to happen, but rather is only a warning of a future disaster, so none of the reasons there explain why God would want the defeat of the Galilean cities early in the revolt that led to the revolt's failure.

So I am still welcoming your answers on this topic.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Sep 27, 2019

rakovsky said:
After laying out the Romans' military prowess, he says:

Herod Agrippa II is saying that (A) the Lord must be on the Romans' side because they built up such a vast empire. (B) The rebels can't both observe the Torah and win, because if they rest on the Sabbath they will be defeated like under Pompey, and if they fight on the Sabbath, they will violate the Torah. (C) The rebels should avoid war to spare the Temple, because the Romans will ruin it, since the Romans will see that the rebels ignored the Romans' past restraint. (D) Rebellion carries tremendous peril, and the rebels would be carried away by their Passions if they rebelled.

Maybe the Lord could give an exception to resting on the Torah in war time.

Saving life trumps Shabbat every time. So that is not necessarily true...

pinacled · Sep 27, 2019

rakovsky said:
Thanks for your replies. You don't have to agree with my idea that Josephus was a Messianic believer in Yeshua. I basically looking for why the Lord would have wished the defeat of Japha and other cities rebelling against Rome. Let me give the passage about Japha that I mentioned earlier.

After giving Herod's speech in Book II, Josephus narrates the Romans' attack on the rebel city of Japha, and ascribes the Romans' victory to the Lord in Wars of the Jews, Book III, Chapter 7:

You can read Wars of the Jews, Book III here:
Full text of "L 487 Josephus III The Jewish War 4 7"

In the passage above, Josephus is saying that Jotapata made surprising resistance, so Japha revolted and had formidable defenses. In Josephus' autobiography, his Vita, Josephus later said that when he was a local commander he had built up Japha's defenses, and Japha was one of Galilee's largest villages. Here in Wars of the Jews, he writes that Japha had natural advantages, a double wall ring, was prepared to fight, and its people attacked. But then the rebels retreated, and the city locked them out in fear of the Romans, thereby allowing the Romans to slaughter those in retreat. This turn of affairs apparently led Josephus to think that it must have been God who gave the Romans the ability to attack Japha's forces so easily. His idea must have been that the Romans themselves didn't try to trap the retreating forces, and that it doesn't make sense for the city to lock out its own defenders, so it must have been God's work.

Of course, this doesn't explain why God would give the Romans victory.

Victory implies a battle between contending armies.
The Romans are very well known throughout history to have slaughtered an unarmed threat under a banner of truce.
Only to turn on a cities (towns/villages) emissaries.
Then after such a deceit and slaughter of the inhabitants they would claim such to be a victory in battle. With a warped and perverse tongue they would further emplore their own class of scribes to lie about history.

Sorcerors lie about history.

rakovsky · Sep 27, 2019

TreWalker said:
During shacharit prayers we pray Deut 11 which speaks directly to this question. Specifically verses 16 & 17.

13 “Now if you listen obediently to My mitzvot that I am commanding you today—to love Adonai your God and to serve Him with all your heart and soul— 14 then I will give rain for your land in its season—the early rain and the late rains"—so that you may gather in your grain, new wine and olive oil. ..

Now, if you are familiar at all with the writings of our prophets you would recognize the warnings of exile AND the promises that remedy this situation for us. All dealing with the geulah/redemption and the coming of our Messiah.

Sure, I understand that the Torah sets forth a covenant with rewards and warnings, Trewalker.
It sounds like you are saying that the nation violated this covenant's commands. How do you think specifically it was violated that would have caused the catastrophes of 66-70 AD?

rakovsky · Sep 27, 2019

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Saving life trumps Shabbat every time. So that is not necessarily true...

That makes sense, Ye.HaDerekh.
May I please ask what you see as factors or reasons, if any, that would make the Lord impose the Roman conquest?

rakovsky · Sep 27, 2019

pinacled said:
Victory implies a battle between contending armies.
The Romans are very well known throughout history to have slaughtered an unarmed threat under a banner of truce.
Only to turn on a cities (towns/villages) emissaries.
Then after such a deceit and slaughter of the inhabitants they would claim such to be a victory in battle. With a warped and perverse tongue they would further emplore their own class of scribes to lie about history.

Sorcerors lie about history.

Sure, I can see that the victors in wars tend to lie, misportray events, or spin them to make themselves look good, Pinacled. Actually in Wars of the Jews he makes both sides sound unpleasant. For example, the way he describes the Romans slaughtering civilians does not sound nice. Josephus is not happy about the Temple's destruction by Rome either, even though he describes omens for it.

Also, there is what you say in the way that Rome conquered enemies. A good example is the way that they crushed the Britons after defeating Boudicca's forces. In any case, as to the OP, there was a battle at Japha with contending armies, with the troops of Japha attacking Rome first. I suppose that you imagine that Josephus made that up, but I think that Japha really was one of the rebellious cities, since for example there were other cities in Galilee like Sepphoris that were not in rebellion and weren't crushed by Rome. In your view did the Roman conquest not fit with God's desires.

Why would God want the defeat of Japha and other cities rebelling against Rome in 66-70? (Solved)

Newbie

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Newbie

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Jewish Magen Am

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

walking with the Shekinah

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Similar threads