Not another atonement theory!

yeshuaslavejeff said:

1 Corinthians 6:20 you were bought at a price. Therefore ...
1 Corinthians 6:20 you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.
Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood. Romans 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brothers, on account of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 1 Corinthians 7:23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. Philippians 1:20


(for second example)

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Thanks for all the quotes and I will truly meditate upon them.

But How does blood purchase anything? And from whom?

mcarans said:

In the following 3 part series, I consider how we get it wrong with atonement theories concentrating on uncovering a Divine purpose to the murder of Jesus instead of focusing on His mission to bring God's unconditional mercy and forgiveness, free gifts that we reject due to our selfish desire to protect our perceived advantage over our neighbour.

Not another atonement theory! (Part 1 - using Gerharde Forde's approach) : cruciformity

Not another atonement theory! (Part 2 - Why do we reject mercy and forgiveness?) : cruciformity

Not another atonement theory! (Part 3 - Atonement theories are just outcomes) : cruciformity

What are your thoughts on the purpose of Jesus's life, death and resurrection?

Click to expand...

Jesus didn't atone for sins, He was the propitiation for them. Atonement covered sins. In fact, it memorialized them. Propitiation took them away; never to be remembered or counted against us again. Jesus lived a life we could not. He then took the penalty of death for sins He did not commit. Then He was raised from the dead to offer us the life of God we had lost in Adam.

"For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." Hebrews 10:4

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

“Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” Hebrews 10:17

"Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them." Romans 4:8

"He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." 1 Peter 2:22

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit ..." 1 Peter 3:18

"For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!" Romans 5:10

Akita Suggagaki said:

Thanks for all the quotes and I will truly meditate upon them.

But How does blood purchase anything? And from whom?

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That is an excellent question!

Who is the kidnapper and why would blood be what he wants?

You have to think about it:

When you go up to an nonbelieving sinner you are not trying to get the sinner to accept some doctrine, theology, church, or some book (even the Bible), but you are trying to get him to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified, which the Bible describes as the ransom payment.

If the sinner accepts Jesus Christ and Him crucified, a child of God is released to enter the Kingdom to be with God, but if the sinner rejects Jesus Christ and Him crucified a child of God is kept from entering the Kingdom.

Does all this sound very much like a kidnapping/ransom scenario?

Who want the blood (God, satan or me)?

John 6: 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

Christ and God did not personally want Christ’s blood to leave his veins, but I need to know that blood is available for me. I need to physically feel that blood in the form of wine flowing down my throat and over my heart to know Christ’s blood is cleansing my heart and not just something outwardly. So each week at least I need communion.

Yes, satan might want Christ’s blood, but it would be wrong for God to “pay” satan, since God could just as safely and easily over power satan and take anything.

The atonement process is huge and like you said earlier there is a difference between punishment (discipline) and forgiveness, just as any wonderful Loving parent sees to both the forgiveness and disciplining of their children if at all possible. (more to think about)

GraceBro said:

Jesus didn't atone for sins, He was the propitiation for them. Atonement covered sins. In fact, it memorialized them. Propitiation took them away; never to be remembered or counted against us again. Jesus lived a life we could not. He then took the penalty of death for sins He did not commit. Then He was raised from the dead to offer us the life of God we had lost in Adam.

"For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." Hebrews 10:4

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

“Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” Hebrews 10:17

"Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them." Romans 4:8

"He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." 1 Peter 2:22

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit ..." 1 Peter 3:18

"For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!" Romans 5:10

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Atonement is a huge topic and some of what you say I agree with, but:
Why can sins not be forgiven by God to remove them?

If I look at Lev. 5 atonement is more of a process and not just one action, since the sinner has a part to play.

You have to think about it:

When you go up to an nonbelieving sinner you are not trying to get the sinner to accept some doctrine, theology, church, or some book (even the Bible), but you are trying to get him to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified, which the Bible describes as the ransom payment.

If the sinner accepts Jesus Christ and Him crucified, a child of God is released to enter the Kingdom to be with God, but if the sinner rejects Jesus Christ and Him crucified a child of God is kept from entering the Kingdom.

Does all this sound very much like a kidnapping/ransom scenario?

Who want the blood (God, satan or me)?

John 6: 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

Christ and God did not personally want Christ’s blood to leave his veins, but I need to know that blood is available for me. I need to physically feel that blood in the form of wine flowing down my throat and over my heart to know Christ’s blood is cleansing my heart and not just something outwardly. So each week at least I need communion.

Yes, satan might want Christ’s blood, but it would be wrong for God to “pay” satan, since God could just as safely and easily over power satan and take anything.

The atonement process is huge and like you said earlier there is a difference between punishment (discipline) and forgiveness, just as any wonderful Loving parent sees to both the forgiveness and disciplining of their children if at all possible. (more to think about)

bling said:

John 6: 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you

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And I find it puzzling that Jesus speaks of his blood openly to a crowd of people in John and yet it is not mentioned at his last supper. Instead we see feet washing.

It isn't that I reject or challenge any of this but I do think we repeat the words of scripture over and over again without asking what they really mean.

So back to the question, "ransom". To whom? Who is held captive? And How does blood give life and play a role in forgiveness of sins?

Well clearly it is we who are held captive, to sin. But what all does even that mean. That we are addicted to self absorbed way of life? And that is offensive to God?

And/or that our very nature is tarnished, bent, misshapen because of it?

I have been reading lately about meditation and the brain, neuroplasticity. New behaviors and pathways become habits and more deeply established. Our sin and continued sinning is the ground of our bent nature. We are enslaved, held ransom.

And the blood of Christ has at least two aspects to consider: how it came to be spilled and its very power.

Akita Suggagaki said:

And I find it puzzling that Jesus speaks of his blood openly to a crowd of people in John and yet it is not mentioned at his last supper. Instead we see feet washing.

It isn't that I reject or challenge any of this but I do think we repeat the words of scripture over and over again without asking what they really mean.

So back to the question, "ransom". To whom? Who is held captive? And How does blood give life and play a role in forgiveness of sins?

Well clearly it is we who are held captive, to sin. But what all does even that mean. That we are addicted to self absorbed way of life? And that is offensive to God?

And/or that our very nature is tarnished, bent, misshapen because of it?

I have been reading lately about meditation and the brain, neuroplasticity. New behaviors and pathways become habits and more deeply established. Our sin and continued sinning is the ground of our bent nature. We are enslaved, held ransom.

And the blood of Christ has at least two aspects to consider: how it came to be spilled and its very power.

Click to expand...

This was said at the last Super:
1 Cor. 11: 23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
There is a difference between being forgiven of sin and being cleansed by the blood. Look at the OT and see the blood being used to cleanse things that have not "sinned".

bling said:

look at the OT and see the blood being used to cleanse things that have not "sinned"

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Yes, but how and why? Blood is only a liquid that keeps the body alive.

I think the blood of Christ is primarily a symbol and proof of his love. Blood has no power. That would be superstitious. Love, on the other hand, has great power.

It is because of his love that he risked and lost his life. Did he really love? Well he willingly gave up his life and blood. It is the symbol and proof of his love.

It is his love that engages me and puts my sin in a new light, makes me want to sin no more. It is his love that forgives me. The new covenant is a covenant of love rather than duty.

"Shed for you so that sins may be forgive."

Not because God required it. After all, it is the blood of God in the flesh. We can say it is God's own blood. Again, it is symbol and proof of God's love. Sins are forgiven because we can now come to realize that God's love in our lives completely changes our relationship to sin. Our nature begins to heal.

Akita Suggagaki said:

Yes, but how and why? Blood is only a liquid that keeps the body alive.

I think the blood of Christ is primarily a symbol and proof of his love. Blood has no power. That would be superstitious. Love, on the other hand, has great power.

It is because of his love that he risked and lost his life. Did he really love? Well he willingly gave up his life and blood. It is the symbol and proof of his love.

It is his love that engages me and puts my sin in a new light, makes me want to sin no more. It is his love that forgives me. The new covenant is a covenant of love rather than duty.

"Shed for you so that sins may be forgive."

Not because God required it. After all, it is the blood of God in the flesh. We can say it is God's own blood. Again, it is symbol and proof of God's love. Sins are forgiven because we can now come to realize that God's love in our lives completely changes our relationship to sin. Our nature begins to heal.

Click to expand...

Everything God and Christ did and do is proof of their Love.

The wine we take at communion is the substitute for Christ’s blood.

The problem I see is knowing and feeling cleansed, so you are able to be comfortable representing Christ.

There is a progression of what is used in cleansing with water, the blood of animals (which cannot be drunk) and then Christ’s blood.

We understand things and even people would have to be cleansed someway to be involved in the temple activity, which would not really be symbolic of God’s Love, but you might explain how it is?

The real blood of Christ is replacing the symbolic animal blood, so if the animal blood was not symbolic of God’s Love, why would Christ’s blood be?

The spilled blood is symbolic of Life being given up, since the life is in the blood.

I really cannot stand the sight of human blood, because it means the life of a person.

There might be even more to it: Christ told Mary in the Garden “17 Jesus saith to her, Touch (or hold) me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father… (ASV)

Why ascend to the father as the reason to not be touched or held?

The High Priest (who was Jesus this time) could not even be touched when taking the blood to be sprinkled on the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies, so did Christ collect His blood spilled on the cross and take it to the Mercy seat in heaven to drip forever in our sight as a reminder?

Akita Suggagaki said:

Thanks for all the quotes and I will truly meditate upon them.

But How does blood purchase anything? And from whom?

Click to expand...

What does the Bible , Yahuweh's Word, Say Simply ?
Read ONLY the Word of Yahuweh (THE BIBLE) concerning THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB WHO WAS SLAIN for Yahuweh's Truth.

bling said:

The problem I see is knowing and feeling cleansed, so you are able to be comfortable representing Christ.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is perhaps the biggest or most widespread 'problem' for people.

bling said:

The wine we take at communion is the substitute for Christ’s blood.

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This is not what Yahuweh's Word Says Clearly and Simply.
(Remember Jesus Says His Words ARE SPIRIT(not flesh/ not physical), and THEY ARE LIFE.)

yeshuaslavejeff said:

This is not what Yahuweh's Word Says Clearly and Simply.
(Remember Jesus Says His Words ARE SPIRIT(not flesh/ not physical), and THEY ARE LIFE.)

Click to expand...

What do you see the wine actually being which we take at communion?

bling said:

What do you see the wine actually being which we take at communion?

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I'll refer you back to Jesus Messiah Savior and simply what He Says, there, and elsewhere,
for instance , as one good example:
John 6:35 Jesus answered, "I am the bread of life. Whoever ...
John 6:35 Jesus answered, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to Me will never hunger, and whoever believes in Me will never thirst.
Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; the one coming to Me never shall hunger, and the one believing in Me never shall thirst at any time.

mcarans said:

In the following 3 part series, I consider how we get it wrong with atonement theories concentrating on uncovering a Divine purpose to the murder of Jesus instead of focusing on His mission to bring God's unconditional mercy and forgiveness, free gifts that we reject due to our selfish desire to protect our perceived advantage over our neighbour.

Not another atonement theory! (Part 1 - using Gerharde Forde's approach) : cruciformity

Not another atonement theory! (Part 2 - Why do we reject mercy and forgiveness?) : cruciformity

Not another atonement theory! (Part 3 - Atonement theories are just outcomes) : cruciformity

What are your thoughts on the purpose of Jesus's life, death and resurrection?

Click to expand...

You might be able to use at least something from this.......

Yom Kippur/The Rapture connection?!