Not another atonement theory!

I have the impression that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in Matthew chapter 4 had an experience that could remind us of the near death experience of Rabbi Alon Anava who was a Skeptic at the time of his brush with death. Since his NDE Rabbi Alon Anava has attempted to live by the word of G-d and the astonishing change in his attitude reminds me of the Sermon on the Mount of Matthew chapter 5,6 and 7.

mcarans said:

What are your thoughts on the purpose of Jesus's life, death and resurrection?

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To restore the relationship between man, made in God's image, and God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ of Nazareth once lost by Adam in the fall.
Blessings

mcarans said:

In the following 3 part series, I consider how we get it wrong with atonement theories concentrating on uncovering a Divine purpose to the murder of Jesus instead of focusing on His mission to bring God's unconditional mercy and forgiveness, free gifts that we reject due to our selfish desire to protect our perceived advantage over our neighbour.

Not another atonement theory! (Part 1 - using Gerharde Forde's approach) : cruciformity

Not another atonement theory! (Part 2 - Why do we reject mercy and forgiveness?) : cruciformity

Not another atonement theory! (Part 3 - Atonement theories are just outcomes) : cruciformity

What are your thoughts on the purpose of Jesus's life, death and resurrection?

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"Fortunately, the motives behind the murder are not complicated. Simply put, Jesus upset the established order. Forde says that He "came preaching repentance and forgiveness, declaring the bounty and mercy of his “Father.” The problem, however, is that we could not buy that. And so we killed him." The human world is transactional, revolving around the law of quid pro quo: I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine. Forde believes that "Christ actualizes God’s will to come to us and to concretely have mercy unconditionally" and that this goes too much against the grain for our societies to survive.

Jesus indeed came preaching themes of penance and forgiveness but also Love, fellowship, solidarity. In the Gospel of John he especially preaches about a unity, not just of him and the Father but us included. His critique of the existing Jewish lived spirituality and how that spirituality failed to be faithful to these themes could not be tolerated. We/they could not "buy that".

I think Jesus undermined the prevailing notion of self, and threatened it. He still does today but we pick and choose which of his teaching we will embrace.

I think to the last supper, "The cup of the new and everlasting covenant" so that "sins may be forgiven". I ponder that.

mcarans said:

In the following 3 part series, I consider how we get it wrong with atonement theories concentrating on uncovering a Divine purpose to the murder of Jesus instead of focusing on His mission to bring God's unconditional mercy and forgiveness, free gifts that we reject due to our selfish desire to protect our perceived advantage over our neighbour.

Not another atonement theory! (Part 1 - using Gerharde Forde's approach) : cruciformity

Not another atonement theory! (Part 2 - Why do we reject mercy and forgiveness?) : cruciformity

Not another atonement theory! (Part 3 - Atonement theories are just outcomes) : cruciformity

What are your thoughts on the purpose of Jesus's life, death and resurrection?

Click to expand...

What another bloodless atonement theory?

But, are our sins forgiven? We still suffer the consequences and that seems like punishment. But then, I suppose, forgiveness and punishment are two different things. If you break my window I am both mad at you and have a broken window. You might have to fix the window but I still don't forgive you unless you ask for forgiveness.

So God is always ready to forgive (If we repent). And I guess the crucifixion somehow fixes the window thought it still baffles me.

redleghunter said:

What another bloodless atonement theory?

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I think we required the blood, not God.

Akita Suggagaki said:

I think we required the blood, not God.

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Yes but He gave it willingly.

On the Cross of Calvary, Jesus died for you and me

1 On the cross of Calvary,
Jesus died for you and me;
There he shed his precious blood,
That from sin we might be free.
O the cleansing stream does flow,
And it washes white as snow!
It was for me that Jesus died
On the cross of Calvary.

Refrain:
On Calvary, an Calvary!
It was for me that Jesus died
On the crass at Calvary.

2 O what wondrous, wondrous love
Brought me down at Jesus’ feet!
O such wondrous, dying love
Asks a sacrifice complete!
Here I give myself to thee,
Soul and body, thine to be;
It was for me thy blood was shed
On the cross of Calvary.

3 Take me, Jesus, I am thine,
Wholly thine, for evermore;
Blessèd Jesus, thou art mine,
Dwell within for evermore;
Cleanse, O cleanse my heart from sin,
Make and keep me pure within!
It was for this thy blood was shed
On the cross of Calvary.

4 Clouds and darkness veiled the sky
When the Lord was crucified;
It is finished! was his cry
When he bowed his head and died.
With this cry from Calvary’s tree
All the world may now go free;
It was for this that Jesus died
On the cross of Calvary.

Hallelujah for the Cross:

redleghunter said:

There he shed his precious blood,
That from sin we might be free.

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How does his precious blood set us free from sin?

mcarans said:

free gifts that we reject due to our selfish desire to protect our perceived advantage over our neighbour.

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???
... WHO do you call "we" ? WHO rejected (or rejects today) the "free gifts" ?

Akita Suggagaki said:

How does his precious blood set us free from sin?

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"Galatians 3:13-15 NLV - Christ bought us with His blood and ...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3:13-15&version=NLV
Galatians 3:13-15 New Life Version (NLV) 13 Christ bought us with His blood... "

(for one example)

Akita Suggagaki said:

How does his precious blood set us free from sin?

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1 Corinthians 6:20 you were bought at a price. Therefore ...
1 Corinthians 6:20 you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.
Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood. Romans 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brothers, on account of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 1 Corinthians 7:23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. Philippians 1:20


(for second example)

Romans 3:25 God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice ...
Romans 3:25 God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand.
This One whom God preordained as the atonement, by the faith of his blood, for the sake of our sins which we had formerly sinned, GOD'S WORD® Translation God showed that Christ is the throne of mercy where God's approval is given through faith in Christ's blood. In his patience God waited to deal with sins committed in the past.

Why Did It Need to Be a Blood Atonement? » Reasons for Hope ...
Why Did It Need to Be a Blood Atonement? » Reasons for Hope* Jesus
When He offered His life on the cross, He gave His sinless life for the sinful life of mankind. He shed His pure blood for man's sinful blood. No Other Way. The atonement for sin could not have been done in any other way. It had to be by blood atonement. Heb 9:22 …without shedding of blood there is no remission [of sin].

(for third and fourth examples)

Akita Suggagaki said:

But, are our sins forgiven? We still suffer the consequences and that seems like punishment. But then, I suppose, forgiveness and punishment are two different things. If you break my window I am both mad at you and have a broken window. You might have to fix the window but I still don't forgive you unless you ask for forgiveness.

So God is always ready to forgive (If we repent). And I guess the crucifixion somehow fixes the window thought it still baffles me.

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I believe that is why St Paul said we are saved by God's Grace through faith. We don't deserve Redemption but God while we were still sinners died for us taking our sins on His shoulders and by His Love and Obedience to the Father is able to offer the Righteousness of God to all who believe in Him. His Resurrection justifying us and is our sure and steady Hope for our resurrection and everlasting Life with Him. Praise be to God! To God Alone be the Glory!

Akita Suggagaki said:

How does his precious blood set us free from sin?

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It's in your own Eucharistic prayers I believe and I would summarize it as this:

The phrase “blood of Christ” is the expression of the sacrificial death and full atoning work of Jesus on our behalf. References to the Savior’s blood include the reality that He literally bled on the cross, but more significantly that He bled and died for sinners.

But I have a few threads where this is discussed here at CF:

What exactly did Jesus Save us from?....

This also: The Blood of Christ cleanses us from our sins.



Colossians 1:20


Acts of the Apostles 20:28


Ephesians 1:7


Hebrews 9:14


Hebrews 9:22


John 1:7


Hebrews 10:19


Hebrews 13:12


Leviticus 17:11


Luke 22:20


Matthew 26:28


Revelation 1:5


Revelation 7:14


Revelation 12:11


Romans 5:9


Romans 3:24-25


1 Peter 1:18-19


1 Corinthians 11:24-30


And I would highly recommend reading Leviticus 16 and Isaiah 53 with the above in mind.

mcarans said:

In the following 3 part series, I consider how we get it wrong with atonement theories concentrating on uncovering a Divine purpose to the murder of Jesus instead of focusing on His mission to bring God's unconditional mercy and forgiveness, free gifts that we reject due to our selfish desire to protect our perceived advantage over our neighbour.

Not another atonement theory! (Part 1 - using Gerharde Forde's approach) : cruciformity

Not another atonement theory! (Part 2 - Why do we reject mercy and forgiveness?) : cruciformity

Not another atonement theory! (Part 3 - Atonement theories are just outcomes) : cruciformity

What are your thoughts on the purpose of Jesus's life, death and resurrection?

Click to expand...

The only thing I see worthy in Forde’s presentation is the question:

“what does the crucifixion actually do for us or God that God could not have achieved more simply or economically some other way?”

Why would anyone think Christ would be treated any better than the prophets that went before Him?

“Hebrews 11:37 They were put to death by stoning; they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated—"

The Chinese have a saying that goes like this: “It is easier to kill the messenger of change, than it is to make the changes”.

These proud Jews Jesus told them to their face: “Yes, our ancestors killed the prophets, but if we had been their we would have supported the prophets, yet they were wanting to kill Jesus.

Jesus showing them, they were just like their ancestors really hurting the pride of all Jews. The religious leaders had to be jealous of Christ, felt their positions could be lost, they might be out of a job, and He could take power away from them. They were continuing to loss control of the masses.

Early on: Luke 4: 28 All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29 They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff. 30 But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.

After he would be thrown off the cliff, they would have thrown rocks on him to kill him, but miraculously Jesus walked away.

Jesus could not stay in any place very long because he needed to continue training the 12 and not be have to worry around with those who wanted to kill Him.

Jesus is going to have to allow someone to torture, humiliate and murder Him.

Let me ask you: “What would you miss out on”, if it had been prophesied that Jesus would fall off the donkey and suddenly die from a broken neck and that is what happened? Hint: You could not have been crucified with Christ.

mcarans said:

I think that if Jesus came today instead of when He did, we would kill Him for similar reasons as I mentioned in the second part.

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Just as written in the New Testament , as Jesus says "What they did to ME, the Teacher, they will also do to you disciples, MY students"...
We like sheep have been led to slaughter daily, world wide, since the first centuries...
i.e. all over the world, we are killed,
yes, just as Jesus would be if that were Yahuweh's Planned Time Today...
Instead, when Jesus Returns , He will destroy the enemy, and deliver His people.

Akita Suggagaki said:

But, are our sins forgiven? We still suffer the consequences and that seems like punishment. But then, I suppose, forgiveness and punishment are two different things. If you break my window I am both mad at you and have a broken window. You might have to fix the window but I still don't forgive you unless you ask for forgiveness.

So God is always ready to forgive (If we repent). And I guess the crucifixion somehow fixes the window thought it still baffles me.

Click to expand...

A lot of multitudes have suffered the consequences of sin, even in the New Testament (Corinthians: many sick and dying in the Assembly of Ekklesia because of sin)...
And "For LACK OF KNOWLEDGE (TRUTH), MY people PERISH" still today....

Note that Yahuweh (God) is NOT always ready to forgive, some are not permitted repentance. This is fairly difficult to find, in the sense that you must read all Scripture and the Creator must grant the understanding from heaven (not from men).