Where here does it say God created from existing matter? You guys have no idea of the complexity Jewish language.
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Form Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary
Yatsar (Predestination) Ps. 139: 15,16
YATSAR
PSALM 139:15, 16
Some Bible translations interpret these verses in such a way as to indicate that
pre-destination is being taught here. Others render it instead with the thought that Jehovah has "written down" the pattern (DNA code?) of the developing embryo.
Literal word-for-word renderings from Hebrew interlinears:
A: Ps 139:15, 16 - "
not he-was-hidden frame-of-me from-you when I-was-made in-the-secret-place I-was-woven-together in-depths-of earth [16]
body-of-me they-saw eyes-of-you and-in book-of-you all-of-them they-were-written days they-were-ordained [
yatsar]
and-not one of-them." -
The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament, Zondervan, 1982.
B: [15] "
Not-was-concealed my-bone from-thee;
when I-was-made in-the-hiding-place,
I-was-embroidered in-the-lowest-parts-of the-earth. [16]
My-unformed-substance saw thy-eyes;
and-upon thy-book all-of-them were-written, [
as-to]-the-days [
when]-they-were-fashioned [
yatsar];
and-[there-was]-not one amongst-them." -
The Interlineary Hebrew and English Psalter, Zondervan, 1979 printing.
C: [15] "
Not-were-hidden my-bones from-you when I-was-made i
n-secret;
when-I-was-woven in-the-depths-of the-earth. [16]
My-embryo saw your-eyes;
and-on Your-book all-of-them were-written;
The-days they-were-formed [
yatsar]
and-(was)-not one among-them." -
The Interlinear Bible, Baker Book House, 1982.
Some Bible translations of Ps. 139:15, 16:
1. [15] "My frame was not concealed from you when I was shaped in a hidden place, knit together in the recesses of the earth. [16] Your eyes saw my unformed limbs; they were all recorded in your book; in due time they were
formed [
yatsar],
a- to the very last one of them
-a." (Footnote for
a-a: "Meaning of Heb. uncertain.") -
Tanakh, Jewish Publication Society, 1985.
2. [16] "Your eyes saw my embryo; and in Your book all (my members) were written; the days they were
formed [
yatsar], and none (was) among them." -
King James II Version (the accompanying text found in C. above).
3. [15] "my body is no mystery to thee, how I was secretly kneaded into shape and patterned in the depths of the earth. [16] Thou didst see my limbs unformed in the womb, and in thy book they are all recorded; day by day they were
fashioned [
yatsar], not one of them was late in growing.
b" - (Footnote for
b : "prob. rdg; Heb.
om.") -
New English Bible, Cambridge University Press, 1971.
4. Footnote for Ps. 139:13-16: "God formed him in the womb (poetically called
the depths of the earth) and knew his character from his conception."
- The New Oxford Annotated Bible, Oxford University Press, 1977.
5. Footnotes: Ps 139:15 - "The depths of the earth: figurative language for `the womb'; stressing not so much the darkness of the place as the hidden, mysterious nature of the operations which occur there." Ps 139:16ff. - "The text of these three verses is obscure in several places." -
The New American Bible, St. Joseph edition, 1970.
Ps. 139:16 - "Mine unformed substance Thine eyes saw, And on Thy book all of them are written, The days they were
formed--And not one among them." -Young's
Ps. 139:16 - "Thine eyes did see my unformed substance, and in thy book all
my members were written;
during many days were they
fashioned, when
as yet there was none of them." -
BBE
Ps. 139:16 "Thy eyes saw my substance, not yet formed; and in thy book all
my members were written,
which in continuance were
fashioned, when
as yet there was none of them." - Webster's
The wording of verse 16 is a little obscure. Coupled with that is the possible ambiguity for the Hebrew word
yatsar. The
New American Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Holman Bible Publishers, 1981, tells us
yatsar literally means "
to form, fashion," but it has been rendered in the
New American Standard Bible in the following ways: Creator (1), devises (1), earthenware (1), fashion (1), fashioned (1), fashioning (2), fashions (1), formed (20), forming (2), forms (2), made (1), Maker (4), maker (2),
ordained (1),
planned (4), potter (9), potter's (7), potters (1).
Obviously, the majority of renderings (56) mean "form or create" (including "potter"), but in 5 instances the
NASB translators have rendered it as "planned" or "ordained." It is this
possible meaning that probably has allowed some translators to interpret the somewhat obscure Hebrew phrasing as intending "pre-destination" or something similar.
Young's Concordance, however, shows that the
KJV translators rendered
yatsar only
once as "purpose" and all others (60) with the meanings synonymous with "form, fashion, make," etc. That single instance is found at Is. 46:11 -
"I have spoken it, I will bring it to pass;
I have
purposed it, I will also do it." -
KJV.
Since this is the
only time
yatsar is interpreted as "purposed" (at least in the
KJV), it seems more likely that it also should have been rendered as "formed." This is even more proper when we see that the above-quoted part of Is. 46:11 is a parallelism. That is, the first half is close in meaning to the second half. (Poetic repetition for emphasis and effect.)
Since the second half of the first statement ("I will bring it to pass") is obviously parallel (and equal) to the second half of the second statement ("I will also do it"), we might expect the first half of the first statement ("I have spoken it") to be parallel (and equal) to the first half of the second statement. In that case "I have spoken it" might better be paralleled by "I have
formed (
yatsar) it [the word or words spoken]."
* This not only fits the parallel better, but makes the translation of
yatsar consistent throughout the
KJV.
The ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament (which is frequently quoted in the New Testament), the
Septuagint, translates
yatsar as "
created"
(ktizo) in the Is. 46:11 passage examined above. More importantly it translates the last part of Ps. 139:16 itself as "of-day they-shall-be-
formed [plasthesontai] and nothing among them." The Hebrew word
yatsar, then, was translated here by the ancient Greek word
plasthesontai which, again, means "
formed or molded," not "purposed" or "ordained" (see
Thayer, #4111 and
Septuagint).
The following translations render
yatsar at Ps. 139:16 as "
formed," "made," "fashioned," etc. (not "ordained" or "planned"):
KJV; NKJV; RSV; NRSV; NEB; REB; AT; BBE; NAB (1991);
LITV; MKJV; Tanakh;
Young's; JPS 1917; Byington; Rotherham; Darby; and Webster's; etc.
But even
if yatsar could be honestly rendered as "purposed" or even "ordained," it is obviously a rare occurrence, and we would be safer in assuming it means "formed," "fashioned," etc. unless context demanded otherwise.
It seems more likely to me that, given the probable meaning of
yatsar and the literal wording of the actual Hebrew (and Greek of the
Septuagint), pre-destination is not being taught in these verses. ----- See
Insight book article on
It has a connection to
commentaries - How did the word Yetzer begot it's meaning ...
How did the word Yetzer begot it's meaning of inclination?did-the-word-yetzer-begot-its...
The word yetzer יצר is
related to the verb yatzar יצר which means something like 'to create, fashion, produce or form'. But within the Etymological Dictionary of Biblical Hebrew by S.R.Hirsch I found a nice reference to the Aramaic word yitzra יצרא which according to Hirsch means inclination.
In
Judaism,
yetzer hara (
Hebrew: יֵצֶר הַרַע) is the congenital inclination to do
evil, by violating the will of God. The term is drawn from the phrase "the imagination of the heart of man [is] evil" (Hebrew: יֵצֶר לֵב הָאָדָם רַע,
yetzer lev-ha-adam ra), which occurs twice in the Hebrew Bible, at
Genesis 6:5 and 8:21.
The evil inclination in man, or what is often called man's natural inclination, has been the subject of debate since
time immemorial.[
citation needed] The traditional Jewish view on this complex subject is well-defined in rabbinic literature. The
yetzer hara is not a demonic force, but rather man's misuse of things the physical body needs to survive. Thus, the need for food becomes gluttony due to the
yetzer hara. The need for procreation becomes sexual abuse, and so on. The idea that humans are born with a
yetzer ra (physical needs that can become "evil"), but that humans do not acquire a
yetzer tov ("a good inclination") until an age of maturity (12 for girls and 13 for boys) has its source in Chapter 16 of the Talmudic tractate
Avot de-Rabbi Natan. "Yetzer tov" The good inclination (“Tov” means “good” in Hebrew). The battles of man’s free will take place in the struggles each person has between his Yetzer Hara and his Yetzer Hatov.
In other words, to form means that God predestines in His mind what He will create. and requires no preexisting matter.
Psa 33:6
By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Joh 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead,
and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Why in the world do you want a weak God that can not create anything that is not already in existence??? Makes no sense to choose a lesser creator over the greater Creator.
