Commandments Question

timothyu · Sep 26, 2019

Ken Rank said:
The law of sin and death is what was introduced into creation from Adam's sin. "Do not steal" (part of the 10 commandments) or "do not lay with a man as you would a woman" (part of the extended Torah/Law) isn't part of "the law of sin and death."

The original sin was putting our will before God's, thus serving self.
So theft, laying, adultery, etc., etc, is still just putting self first, so it is still what brought on the death penalty.
The commandments were simply saying, put God's will first (rather than serve self). Same as He told Adam and Eve. Same as Jesus demonstrated by doing nothing of His own will over that of the Father, the same thing God expects of us till this day. Right?

Ken Rank · Sep 26, 2019

timothyu said:
The original sin was putting our will before God's, thus serving self.
So theft, laying, adultery, etc., etc, is still just putting self first, so it is still what brought on the death penalty.
The commandments were simply saying, put God's will first (rather than serve self). Same as He told Adam and Eve. Same as Jesus demonstrated by doing nothing of His own will over that of the Father, the same thing God expects of us till this day. Right?

I don't disagree with your idea of original sin... what I am saying is, when Adam sinned it introduced death into creation. Death wasn't part of creation, the wages of SIN is death. So, the law of sin and death is us being born separated (but loved) from/by God and with a guilty verdict that says I deserve to die. The law of sin and death has nothing to do with the 613 commandments found in Torah... beyond, of course, our inability to follow them to perfection. But that was the point... we couldn't... God gave the Torah to Israel and commanded they keep it on their hearts (Deut. 6:6). They failed, so no He is doing what they/we couldn't do... write it there Himself. And when He is done, we will have lost our ability to sin because His instructions will be part of who and what we are.

klutedavid · Sep 26, 2019

Ken Rank said:
Actually, it was. Out of Egypt came Israel AND gentiles.. strangers or foreigners in your translation. The law was given to Israel AND those who attached themselves to the God of Israel but were not Israel by birth. So... yes... it isn't just a Jewish thing.

Genesis 26:5 says Abraham kept all the Law and Commandments. Also, faith comes by hearing the word of God and is dead with works. If your "faith" isn't based on hearing God's word and acting on what you hear, it isn't faith anyway. You brought up Hebrews 11... every example there (please go look) has the man of faith hearing God and ACTING on what he heard.

The law of sin and death is what was introduced into creation from Adam's sin. "Do not steal" (part of the 10 commandments) or "do not lay with a man as you would a woman" (part of the extended Torah/Law) isn't part of "the law of sin and death." Adam sinned, the result was death.. the law of sin and death. God's law, His instructions, were not nailed to the cross.... our guilty verdict was.

Abraham did not have the written law. The written law came through Moses.

Pure speculation as to what laws, what commandments Abraham was following and no one really knows.

These are some possibilities, the eating of meat with the blood still in it. Murder was forbidden. Circumcision was commanded for Abraham's offspring.

You should be more careful about making claims about what the text does and does not say. No one can claim that Abraham had the ten commandments because the text does not say that.

Ken Rank · Sep 26, 2019

klutedavid said:
Abraham did not have the written law. The written law came through Moses.

Yes, I know. I have said this in a post to you recently, I think this proved you don't read what others take the time to share with you. The law, the commandments, the do's and don'ts, were known by those who walked with God. They were placed in writing at Sinai, but known before then. That is why Genesis 26:5 says that Abraham kept God's law and commandments.

klutedavid said:
Pure speculation as to what laws, what commandments Abraham was following and no one really knows.

These are some possibilities, the eating of meat with the blood still in it. Murder was forbidden. Circumcision was commanded for Abraham's offspring.

No... I wrote an article on this almost 20 years ago now. I can list about 25 commandments before Sinai that most Christians would say were created at Sinai. From knowing what was food and what wasn't, to knowing that a woman's period made her unclean for a certain amount of time, to a brother taking his dead brother's wife to keep his name alive (and of course, many more).... it isn't speculation, it is Scripture.

klutedavid said:
You should be more careful about making claims about what the text does and does not say. No one can claim that Abraham had the ten commandments because the text does not say that.

Right, yea, thanks for the warning.

timothyu · Sep 26, 2019

Ken Rank said:
The law of sin and death has nothing to do with the 613 commandments found in Torah... beyond, of course, our inability to follow them to perfection.

Agreed. My point sloppily put is that people get all hung up on the details of commandments, but all those commandments simply mean don't seek gain at the expense of another, serving self before others. This was and always will be God's will. The opposite of self serving. Man disagrees for the most part. But as you say, in the Kingdom, man's ways will be no more because those there willingly gave up that side of our nature, rejecting the world of man for a counter-culture.

pasifika · Sep 26, 2019

Ken Rank said:
Actually, it was. Out of Egypt came Israel AND gentiles.. strangers or foreigners in your translation. The law was given to Israel AND those who attached themselves to the God of Israel but were not Israel by birth. So... yes... it isn't just a Jewish thing.

Genesis 26:5 says Abraham kept all the Law and Commandments. Also, faith comes by hearing the word of God and is dead with works. If your "faith" isn't based on hearing God's word and acting on what you hear, it isn't faith anyway. You brought up Hebrews 11... every example there (please go look) has the man of faith hearing God and ACTING on what he heard.

The law of sin and death is what was introduced into creation from Adam's sin. "Do not steal" (part of the 10 commandments) or "do not lay with a man as you would a woman" (part of the extended Torah/Law) isn't part of "the law of sin and death." Adam sinned, the result was death.. the law of sin and death. God's law, His instructions, were not nailed to the cross.... our guilty verdict was.

Hello, you have to interpret Galatians 3:17....it states that the law was given or introduced 430years after the covenant of the promise...So we're there any people live before 430years and before Abraham??? Yes of course. So what law were they followed?

Remember there is a law that requires faith Romans 3:27 and a law which requires works.. and somehow we mixed them up..

Going back to Genesis 26:5...what law did Abraham follow? If you said is the one that given in Sinai then you will go against Galatians 3:17...

pasifika · Sep 26, 2019

timothyu said:
Agreed. My point sloppily put is that people get all hung up on the details of commandments, but all those commandments simply mean don't seek gain at the expense of another, serving self before others. This was and always will be God's will. The opposite of self serving. Man disagrees for the most part. But as you say, in the Kingdom, man's ways will be no more because those there willingly gave up that side of our nature, rejecting the world of man for a counter-culture.

Hello, that is the law of Christ which requires faith and faith is express through Love (Galatians 5:6) and love doesnot cause harm to a neighbor Romans 13:10
Love is the outward expression of a believing or faithful heart.

klutedavid · Sep 26, 2019

Ken Rank said:
Yes, I know. I have said this in a post to you recently, I think this proved you don't read what others take the time to share with you. The law, the commandments, the do's and don'ts, were known by those who walked with God. They were placed in writing at Sinai, but known before then. That is why Genesis 26:5 says that Abraham kept God's law and commandments.

No... I wrote an article on this almost 20 years ago now. I can list about 25 commandments before Sinai that most Christians would say were created at Sinai. From knowing what was food and what wasn't, to knowing that a woman's period made her unclean for a certain amount of time, to a brother taking his dead brother's wife to keep his name alive (and of course, many more).... it isn't speculation, it is Scripture.

Right, yea, thanks for the warning.

No matter how hard you try Ken the ten commandments are not listed in Genesis.

Anyone who states that the ten commandments existed before Sinai is merely speculating.

Cain killed Abel the text states so has Cain broken the commandment to not kill?

Of course not because Cain never had the ten commandments.

Cain broke the more general law of life.

Romans 2:14-15
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.

Cain was never under the law as you know it.

timothyu · Sep 26, 2019

klutedavid said:
Cain was never under the law as you know it.

But he was under the same law as his parents, not to put their will before the will of God... to seek personal gain at the expense of another.

Ken Rank · Sep 27, 2019

klutedavid said:
No matter how hard you try Ken the ten commandments are not listed in Genesis.

A student of scripture, a person who desires truth over tradition, would have challenged me... asked me to produce commandments (well beyond the 10, by the way, I didn't say only the 10 were known before Sinai) so the information could be considered. Instead... the response from you is to take a position against what I believe without even having weighed out the information that I used to draw my conclusion.

Either we think we already have been perfected and need not learn anything new... or we need to always consider, prayerfully, against Scripture, other possibilities. Your call on that. I will leave you alone now. Have a great weekend.

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Commandments Question

timothyu

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