Do you believe if Christ came today you'll be saved?

Daniel C

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Eternal Security is not biblical not only because it cannot be supported by the Bible (Note: Anyone can easily refute this belief simply by looking at the surrounding verses in most cases) but because it leads to immorality (Whether that person wants that to happen or not). For if you tell a child or new believer (that you will never see again) that all their future sin is forgiven them, they can easily be led to think that you are teaching the same belief that George Sodini taught. George Sodini believed all his future sins were paid for. He even stated this in his own suicide letter and his own confession to his future crime of committing mass murder. The crazy thing is. One of the deacons said he was still saved despite what he did.

George Sodini - Eternal Security Proponent - Mass Murderer and Suicide Victim.

Of course, they take believing in Jesus alone for salvation very seriously. This is something the rest of you don't do. You believe that works need to be there to show a true faith. You need something else besides a belief in Jesus alone in order to be saved. Call it regneration that leads to works and holiness or whatever you like, but you must admit that there has to be some level of morality within God's Kingdom because God is good and holy. But if one believes one is saved saved by a belief alone in Jesus, then it does not matter what you do. Jesus says we will know a tree by its fruit. If a particular belief leads to wrong thinking then it is not true.



Right, because it is not biblical.



Everyone has a different understanding on what Legalism means. Surely a man can wrongfully say to a woman that they do not need to be married officially on paper because that would be legalism. A person can justify speeding in a school zone (despite the children) because that would be legalism to obey the letter of the traffic laws. When folks say things like "Legalism" usually they are promoting some form of lawlessness or wrong activity or sin. Anyways, if you were to re-read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7), you will notice that Jesus was teaching righteous instruction and or in doing good vs. what popular Christianity teaches (Which is believe in the finished work of Christ alone).

In fact, when you read Matthew 7:14 (narrow is the way that leads unto life), this is in context to Jesus also saying, that not everyone who says unto Him "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of Heaven but he that does the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21). Matthew 7:14 is in context to Jesus saying to those believers who did wonderful works in his name to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (or sin). Matthew 7:14 is in context to Jesus saying that if anyone does not do what He says, they are like a fool who built their house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

If God commands you to do something, that is not legalism. Legalism is when we decide to make up our own rules that is outside of God's commands. Legalism would also be something that does not involve God's grace or attempts to minimize His grace in some way. Surely believers can confess of their sins and be forgiven of them (1 John 1:9). But in Eternal Security there is no real need to confess of sin to be forgiven. One is already saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. So one can kick back on a beach and step over the poor guy and live life to the fullest because they have a belief alone on Jesus.

Titus 2:11-12 says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. So God's grace teaches legalism? Is that what Paul is saying? No. God's grace leads to obedience to His commands. For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Many are trying to justify the idea that they can break God's commands in some way with the thinking they are saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. But Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). I ask the Eternal Security Proponent: Do you love Jesus enough to keep His commandments? Many who are of the OSAS belief that I have talked with say that they can not overcome grievous sin in this life and that they will always sin in some way.

Main points here:

1)Eternal security is Biblical both scriptural and logically.

2)Eternal security leads onto sinful lifestyle-in your opinion only!


Whenever I present this to people who believe in conditional salvation they tap dance around it,will you address this directly?


''For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.''

''For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.''

Most members just try to redefine words or try other sneaky tactics,so what you say to this?


God cannot be in debt to the creation,so the only way salvation can happen is the transaction of a gift. If you earn it God is in debt to the workers,then you are boasting and self righteous. Not to mention God loses divinity. Salvation is defined as eternal and we are saved when we are born again hence we receive the eternal free gift of salvation.

You gave one example of a guy who did bad things professing eternal salvation,he said it,did he believe it?

You have no evidence of this blanket statement that eternal security leads onto a sinful lifestyle and in my opinion I think people who believe in eternal security generally have the highest standards. Because the denominations that follow this doctrine are Bible believing Christians and take the Bible as their final authority.

You trust in works but some of the denominations who are advocates of work salvation have been racked with pedophilia and degeneracy over recent years,so....

I will trust Gods word not my works.
 
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Main points here:

1)Eternal security is Biblical both scriptural and logically.

2)Eternal security leads onto sinful lifestyle-in your opinion only!


Whenever I present this to people who believe in conditional salvation they tap dance around it,will you address this directly?


''For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.''

''For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.''

Most members just try to redefine words or try other sneaky tactics,so what you say to this?


God cannot be in debt to the creation,so the only way salvation can happen is the transaction of a gift. If you earn it God is in debt to the workers,then you are boasting and self righteous. Not mention God loses divinity. Salvation is defined as eternal and we are saved when we are born hence we recive the eternal free gift of salvation.

You gave one example of a guy who did bad things professing eternal salvation,he said it,did he believe it?

You have no evidence of this blanket statement that eternal security leads onto a sinful lifestyle and in my opinion I think people who believe in eternal security generally have the highest standards. Because the denominations that follow this doctrine are Bible believing Christians and take the Bible as their final authority.

You trust in works but some of the denominations who are advocates of work salvation have been racked with pedophilia and degeneracy over recent years,so....

I will trust Gods word not my works.

I cannot address all your points here because I am limited on time. I did not come to believe what I do based on any particular church teaching. In fact, Eternal Security is a teaching that is what the majority of churches teach these days here in America. I can call around all the churches in my area and they pretty much all believe in OSAS or some form of Belief Alone-ism for salvation. But Jesus says narrow is the way and FEW be that find it. Oh, and again, Matthew 7:14 is in context to righteous instruction and not in reference to Eternal Security or Belief Alone-ism.

As for Ephesians 2:8-9 that talks about how God's grace is a gift through faith:

Well, Paul was talking about "Initial Salvation," and or "Works Alone Salvation" (that did not include God's grace) in Ephesians 2:8-9. In regards to Initial Salvation: Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened. Being quickened is regeneration and it is a one time event (i.e. "Initial Salvation"). Ephesians 2:8 says that God's grace is a gift. Gifts are received one time, and not multiple times (Hence, why Paul is referring to "Initial Salvation"). In regards to the point on Works Alone Salvationism: In verse 9, it refers to the kind of work that a person would boast in doing themselves. Verse 10 (Ephesians 2:10) refers to a completely different kind of work. It is the kind of work that God does through the believer because they are the works that believers are created to do in Christ Jesus. Verse 9 is a man directed work because they boast in themselves by doing them. A believer who allows God to do the good work through them will boast in God and not in themselves.

But a believer does need works as a part of salvation. Paul says a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). This why we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

Side Note:

Oh, and if you tell a person that they are saved by a belief alone in Jesus and their future sin is paid for: It can lead people to think that God's grace is a license for immorality. This is not just my opinion, but it is cold hard fact. I have talked with a guy who thought he could mow down a crowd of people with a machine gun and he would still be saved while doing so (Because he has a belief alone on Jesus). George Sodini is another such example, as well. I can provide testimonies of those who were caught up into sin because of the teaching of Eternal Security; But it will have to be at a later time (Because I am short on time).

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you this fine day.
 
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Daniel C

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I cannot address all your points here because I am limited on time. I did not come to believe what I do based on any particular church teaching. In fact, Eternal Security is a teaching that is what the majority of churches teach these days here in America. I can call around all the churches in my area and they pretty much all believe in OSAS or some form of Belief Alone-ism for salvation. But Jesus says narrow is the way and FEW be that find it. Oh, and again, Matthew 7:14 is in context to righteous instruction and not in reference to Eternal Security or Belief Alone-ism.

As for Ephesians 2:8-9 that talks about how God's grace is a gift through faith:

Well, Paul was talking about "Initial Salvation," and or "Works Alone Salvation" (that did not include God's grace) in Ephesians 2:8-9. In regards to Initial Salvation: Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened. Being quickened is regeneration and it is a one time event (i.e. "Initial Salvation"). Ephesians 2:8 says that God's grace is a gift. Gifts are received one time, and not multiple times (Hence, why Paul is referring to "Initial Salvation"). In regards to the point on Works Alone Salvationism: In verse 9, it refers to the kind of work that a person would boast in doing themselves. Verse 10 (Ephesians 2:10) refers to a completely different kind of work. It is the kind of work that God does through the believer because they are the works that believers are created to do in Christ Jesus. Verse 9 is a man directed work because they boast in themselves by doing them. A believer who allows God to do the good work through them will boast in God and not in themselves.

But a believer does need works as a part of salvation. Paul says a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). This why we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

Side Note:

Oh, and if you tell a person that they are saved by a belief alone in Jesus and their future sin is paid for: It can lead people to think that God's grace is a license for immorality. This is not just my opinion, but it is cold hard fact. I have talked with a guy who thought he could mow down a crowd of people with a machine gun and he would still be saved while doing so (Because he has a belief alone on Jesus). George Sodini is another such example, as well. I can provide testimonies of those who were caught up into sin because of the teaching of Eternal Security; But it will have to be at a later time (Because I am short on time).

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you this fine day.


You say:

''Well, Paul was talking about "Initial Salvation," and or "Works Alone Salvation" (that did not include God's grace) in Ephesians 2:8-9.''

Well what's this then?

Ephesians 2:8-9
''For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.''


More gymnastics by the works salvation team (sighs)

The free gift of salvation which is Gods Grace is eternal.

You say eternal security encourages sin and I disagree,well I know the idea of a confession booth which can absolve a person of their sins must create a mindset of sin now fix later. Why worry about sin if the guy sitting next to me can sanctify me?

Yeah have a good evening buddy. :wave:
 
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What do you think God desires from his saved and sealed people? What is the work of God?

I say the main duty is soul winning through Evangelism,the unsaved cannot save themselves and the greatest love for our fellow man is to show them God, so they receive the free eternal gift of salvation.

I don't believe spending our entire physical lives ''perfecting'' our spirituality is what God wants from us. We are fallen by our nature and nothing we can do will ever change that until the final trumpet.I think the work he commanded is to save his children:

''And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to
every creature.''
The Scripture answers your first question directly: "This is the work of God, that we believe on Him whom He has sent."

The standards of holiness have never changed. We are saved because Jesus kept the Law perfectly and was our perfect sacrifice for sin.

But we have to allow the Holy Spirit to work within us to develop holiness so that we live to glorify Jesus and present a reliable testimony of the gospel to the world. If we say we care converted to Christ and conduct ourselves just like any unconverted person, anyone could say that conversion to Christ has no benefit because there is no difference between us and the unconverted.

How can we present evidence of a changed life, if there is no change? Paul asked, "Shall we continue in sin? God forbid!"
 
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Daniel C

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The Scripture answers your first question directly: "This is the work of God, that we believe on Him whom He has sent."

The standards of holiness have never changed. We are saved because Jesus kept the Law perfectly and was our perfect sacrifice for sin.

But we have to allow the Holy Spirit to work within us to develop holiness so that we live to glorify Jesus and present a reliable testimony of the gospel to the world. If we say we care converted to Christ and conduct ourselves just like any unconverted person, anyone could say that conversion to Christ has no benefit because there is no difference between us and the unconverted.

How can we present evidence of a changed life, if there is no change? Paul asked, "Shall we continue in sin? God forbid!"


The change would be the desire to soul win,is that not evident.........:scratch:

Do you believe all saved people in the kingdom of God will be at the same level or will there be a status system?

Will the criminal on cross who Jesus saved have the same level of reward as the Apostle Paul?
 
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You say:

''Well, Paul was talking about "Initial Salvation," and or "Works Alone Salvation" (that did not include God's grace) in Ephesians 2:8-9.''

Well what's this then?

Ephesians 2:8-9
''For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.''

Your not getting what I said.
Yes, I am aware of what Ephesians 2:8-9 says.
It does say by grace are you saved by faith and not of works.
What was Paul trying to say in this passage? He is trying to make it clear to the Christians at Ephesus that they are saved by God's grace through faith and it is not of works. Why would Paul say that? It is because Paul had to correct some believers wrong thinking that they could save themselves without God's grace through faith and they could save themselves based on works alone that they would boast in doing themselves. If this was not the case, then Paul would not need to correct them with Ephesians 2:8-9.

You said:
More gymnastics by the works salvation team (sighs)

Right. Then maybe you can explain just a few of the tons of verses that teach that we are not only saved by God's grace through faith, but in the Sanctification process, as well.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16).

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

You said:
The free gift of salvation which is Gods Grace is eternal.

Salvation is a person and it is not a super power. For 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. The way we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord is if we find that we are keeping His commandments (See: 1 John 2:3). However, the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth (i.e. Jesus is the truth) is not in them (See: 1 John 2:4).

Also, life teaches us that gifts come with responsibilties. If somebody gave Rick a car that was a free gift, that does not mean Rick can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit predestrians. Rick would not have his gift for very long if he did that. Another example would be a wife. Imagine if Bob prayed to have a wife for many years and God answered his prayers. He could consider his wife as a gift from God because he prayed for her. But does that mean Bob can cheat on his wife and expect her to stay with him? No. See, gifts come with responsibilities.

You said:
You say eternal security encourages sin and I disagree,

But what of the many people who have turned God's grace into a license to sin because of Eternal Security?
Do you just ignore that kind of thing?
Also, is a believer saved if they lie, or look upon a woman in lust?
Do you believe the a believer will overcome sins like these in this life time?
Many I have talked with who are for Eternal Security say that no believer can overcome grievous sin. They think they will always struggle with some kind of sin in this life and yet they no doubt think they are saved by having a belief on Jesus. So yes. I do think Eternal Security encourages sin. Are you saying you believe that a saint must overcome grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) in this life or they are not truly saved or born again?

You said:
well I know the idea of a confession booth...

Okay. Stop right here. I am not Catholic. I never was a Catholic, and I never will be one. I am strongly against Catholicism. As I said before, I learned what I did from what the Bible says and not from anyone church so please knock off the false slander, friend. They do not believe in following the New Testament Commandments from the Bible alone (like I do) but they add many church traditions as a part of those works (of which I strongly disagree with). I believe that a Christian can only confess sins only to the Lord Jesus Christ or to the Father in Jesus' name. For Jesus is the only mediator between God the Father and man.
 
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Daniel C

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Your not getting what I said.
Yes, I am aware of what Ephesians 2:8-9 says.
It does say by grace are you saved by faith and not of works.
What was Paul trying to say in this passage? He is trying to make it clear to the Christians at Ephesus that they are saved by God's grace through faith and it is not of works. Why would Paul say that? It is because Paul had to correct some believers wrong thinking that they could save themselves without God's grace through faith and they could save themselves based on works alone that they would boast in doing themselves. If this was not the case, then Paul would not need to correct them with Ephesians 2:8-9.



Right. Then maybe you can explain just a few of the tons of verses that teach that we are not only saved by God's grace through faith, but in the Sanctification process, as well.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16).

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).



Salvation is a person and it is not a super power. For 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. The way we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord is if we find that we are keeping His commandments (See: 1 John 2:3). However, the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth (i.e. Jesus is the truth) is not in them (See: 1 John 2:4).

Also, life teaches us that gifts come with responsibilties. If somebody gave Rick a car that was a free gift, that does not mean Rick can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit predestrians. Rick would not have his gift for very long if he did that. Another example would be a wife. Imagine if Bob prayed to have a wife for many years and God answered his prayers. He could consider his wife as a gift from God because he prayed for her. But does that mean Bob can cheat on his wife and expect her to stay with him? No. See, gifts come with responsibilities.



But what of the many people who have turned God's grace into a license to sin because of Eternal Security?
Do you just ignore that kind of thing?
Also, is a believer saved if they lie, or look upon a woman in lust?
Do you believe the a believer will overcome sins like these in this life time?
Many I have talked with who are for Eternal Security say that no believer can overcome grievous sin. They think they will always struggle with some kind of sin in this life and yet they no doubt think they are saved by having a belief on Jesus. So yes. I do think Eternal Security encourages sin. Are you saying you believe that a saint must overcome grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) in this life or they are not truly saved or born again?



Okay. Stop right here. I am not Catholic. I never was a Catholic, and I never will be one. I am strongly against Catholicism. As I said before, I learned what I did from what the Bible says and not from anyone church so please knock off the false slander, friend. They do not believe in following the New Testament Commandments from the Bible alone (like I do) but they add many church traditions as a part of those works (of which I strongly disagree with). I believe that a Christian can only confess sins only to the Lord Jesus Christ or to the Father in Jesus' name. For Jesus is the only mediator between God the Father and man.


I really think you are being disrespectful to God when you keep comparing the eternal gift of salvation to earthly perishable junk. I think you should stop cheapening Mankinds only means of redemption,just admit that's a bad analogy and stop doing it please.

Moving on. Do you sin at all?
 
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I really think you are being disrespectful to God when you keep comparing the eternal gift of salvation to earthly perishable junk. I think you should stop cheapening Mankinds only means of redemption,just admit that's a bad analogy and stop doing it please.

Moving on. Do you sin at all?

Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by using real world examples. In fact, even a Canaanite woman had expounded upon Christ’s parable with a Parable of her own and Jesus commended her faith because of it (See Matthew 15:21-28).
 
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.......I believe that deep down you don't believe in salvation by faith alone (I am not knocking on those who don't affirm that). Just a food for thought what do you think?...
Your question is similar to the tact I always take with the cults when they show up at my door.

I seldom argue about issues like the deity of Jesus and the like - as important as that is. I want to know exactly what they are depending on to get them into Heaven vs. Hell. I.e. - what must I do to be saved?

Their answer is invariably something like - I don't know - I hope I'll be saved if - we'll see ...........

I tell them that that's the difference between their religion and mine. I have faith that Jesus paid the price for my sin and the fact that I have rested in that after communicating that faith to God is all I need for assurance that I am saved this very moment and will be if lightning should strike my front porch while we are talking.

It's the difference between saving faith in the simple gospel and something else - which is in reality no gospel at all.

In my view - you don't have to be a member of some cult to fail the test. If you are depending on anything (ANYTHING) other than faith in the work of Jesus Christ at Calvary to commend you to God on the day you meet Him face to face - you do not have saving faith. You will not be justified in the eyes of God.

It doesn't matter how "righteous" your life is. You will fall short of justification if you are depending on it for your salvation.

I remember someone asking Mother Theresa why she lived the life she did and her answer was something like "God has placed many good works on earth for us so that we can earn our way to Heaven".

That is not only a false gospel. It's the direct opposite of the gospel. She might as well have been a Hindu, or a Muslim, or an atheist rather than a supposed Christian for all the good her righteous life did her.

The gospel is very simple. Jesus Christ paid the price for your sins and those who rest in that work will be saved. You either believe it or you don't.

It's not spiritual rocket science.

Our ongoing sanctification after being born again - however - takes a lot of work as I have experienced it.

Two steps forward and one step back it seems. But none of those backward steps takes me off the throne of God where I have been seated with Jesus Christ since the day I was born again so many years ago.
 
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Your question is similar to the tact I always take with the cults when they show up at my door.

I seldom argue about issues like the deity of Jesus and the like - as important as that is. I want to know exactly what they are depending on to get them into Heaven vs. Hell. I.e. - what must I do to be saved?

Their answer is invariably something like - I don't know - I hope I'll be saved if - we'll see ...........

I tell them that that's the difference between their religion and mine. I have faith that Jesus paid the price for my sin and the fact that I have rested in that after communicating that faith to God is all I need for assurance that I am saved this very moment and will be if lightning should strike my front porch while we are talking.

It's the difference between saving faith in the simple gospel and something else - which is in reality no gospel at all.

In my view - you don't have to be a member of some cult to fail the test. If you are depending on anything (ANYTHING) other than faith in the work of Jesus Christ at Calvary to commend you to God on the day you meet Him face to face - you do not have saving faith. You will not be justified in the eyes of God.

It doesn't matter how "righteous" your life is. You will fall short of justification if you are depending on it for your salvation.

I remember someone asking Mother Theresa why she lived the life she did and her answer was something like "God has placed many good works on earth for us so that we can earn our way to Heaven".

That is not only a false gospel. It's the direct opposite of the gospel. She might as well have been a Hindu, or a Muslim, or an atheist rather than a supposed Christian for all the good her righteous life did her.

The gospel is very simple. Jesus Christ paid the price for your sins and those who rest in that work will be saved. You either believe it or you don't.

It's not spiritual rocket science.

Our ongoing sanctification after being born again - however - takes a lot of work as I have experienced it.

Two steps forward and one step back it seems. But none of those backward steps takes me off the throne of God where I have been seated with Jesus Christ since the day I was born again so many years ago.

No. 1 John 1:7 gives us the true imputation of Christ’s sacrifice. It says if we walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us of all sin. Walking in the light is loving your brother according to the use of other words within 1 John 2:9-11. For whoever hates his brother is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (See 1 John 3:15). These passages of Scripture are simple to understand.
 
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Do you sin at all?
So Eternal Security is a license to sin. For you are implying that the believer sins and yet you no doubt think they are still saved. So a believer can lie, hate, lust and they can get hit by a bus and still be saved as long as they believed in Jesus as their Savior, right?
If so, then why is George Sodini excluded? Or do you think George Sodini is saved?
 
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Your question is similar to the tact I always take with the cults when they show up at my door.

I seldom argue about issues like the deity of Jesus and the like - as important as that is. I want to know exactly what they are depending on to get them into Heaven vs. Hell. I.e. - what must I do to be saved?

Their answer is invariably something like - I don't know - I hope I'll be saved if - we'll see ...........

I tell them that that's the difference between their religion and mine. I have faith that Jesus paid the price for my sin and the fact that I have rested in that after communicating that faith to God is all I need for assurance that I am saved this very moment and will be if lightning should strike my front porch while we are talking.

It's the difference between saving faith in the simple gospel and something else - which is in reality no gospel at all.

In my view - you don't have to be a member of some cult to fail the test. If you are depending on anything (ANYTHING) other than faith in the work of Jesus Christ at Calvary to commend you to God on the day you meet Him face to face - you do not have saving faith. You will not be justified in the eyes of God.

It doesn't matter how "righteous" your life is. You will fall short of justification if you are depending on it for your salvation.

I remember someone asking Mother Theresa why she lived the life she did and her answer was something like "God has placed many good works on earth for us so that we can earn our way to Heaven".

That is not only a false gospel. It's the direct opposite of the gospel. She might as well have been a Hindu, or a Muslim, or an atheist rather than a supposed Christian for all the good her righteous life did her.

The gospel is very simple. Jesus Christ paid the price for your sins and those who rest in that work will be saved. You either believe it or you don't.

It's not spiritual rocket science.

Our ongoing sanctification after being born again - however - takes a lot of work as I have experienced it.

Two steps forward and one step back it seems. But none of those backward steps takes me off the throne of God where I have been seated with Jesus Christ since the day I was born again so many years ago.

If Jesus paid for your future sin, then it would be impossible to confess sins so as to be forgiven of them according to 1 John 1:9.
 
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His student

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No. 1 John 1:7 gives us the true imputation of Christ’s sacrifice. It says if we walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us of all sin. Walking in the light is loving your brother according to the use of other words within 1 John 2:9-11. For whoever hates his brother is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (See 1 John 3:15). These passages of Scripture are simple to understand.
It sounds like you don't think God is able to do that through me. Or, perhaps, you don't think I'm a Godly person.

Either way I have His promise that He will complete the good work He began in me.

Or perhaps you don't believe that it was Him Who began the good work in me?

I know Whom I have believed and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed to Him against that day.

I'll tell you what is "simple to understand".

""Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." John 5:24

I did that very thing on a very personal level in 1957.

I believed what He said then and I believe Him now. So sue me.:)
 
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Your question is similar to the tact I always take with the cults when they show up at my door.

I seldom argue about issues like the deity of Jesus and the like - as important as that is. I want to know exactly what they are depending on to get them into Heaven vs. Hell. I.e. - what must I do to be saved?

Their answer is invariably something like - I don't know - I hope I'll be saved if - we'll see ...........

I tell them that that's the difference between their religion and mine. I have faith that Jesus paid the price for my sin and the fact that I have rested in that after communicating that faith to God is all I need for assurance that I am saved this very moment and will be if lightning should strike my front porch while we are talking.

It's the difference between saving faith in the simple gospel and something else - which is in reality no gospel at all.

In my view - you don't have to be a member of some cult to fail the test. If you are depending on anything (ANYTHING) other than faith in the work of Jesus Christ at Calvary to commend you to God on the day you meet Him face to face - you do not have saving faith. You will not be justified in the eyes of God.

It doesn't matter how "righteous" your life is. You will fall short of justification if you are depending on it for your salvation.

I remember someone asking Mother Theresa why she lived the life she did and her answer was something like "God has placed many good works on earth for us so that we can earn our way to Heaven".

That is not only a false gospel. It's the direct opposite of the gospel. She might as well have been a Hindu, or a Muslim, or an atheist rather than a supposed Christian for all the good her righteous life did her.

The gospel is very simple. Jesus Christ paid the price for your sins and those who rest in that work will be saved. You either believe it or you don't.

It's not spiritual rocket science.

Our ongoing sanctification after being born again - however - takes a lot of work as I have experienced it.

Two steps forward and one step back it seems. But none of those backward steps takes me off the throne of God where I have been seated with Jesus Christ since the day I was born again so many years ago.

Also, if future sin is paid for it would give believers a safety net to sin on some level or to treat sin as not that big of a deal. In addition, 1 Corinthians 2:16 says we have the mind of Christ. Jesus never justified sin or thought that He could do wrong and still be in God’s Kingdom. So that means if we have the mind of Christ, we cannot justify sin either or give ourselves a safety net to sin. Jesus warned about how committing certain sins could cause a loss of salvation (See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, and Matthew 25:31-46).
 
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It sounds like you don't think God is able to do that through me. Or, perhaps, you don't think I'm a Godly person.

Either way I have His promise that He will complete the good work He began in me.

Or perhaps you don't believe that it was Him Who began the good work in me?

I know Whom I have believed and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed to Him against that day.

I'll tell you what is "simple to understand".

""Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." John 5:24

I did that very thing on a very personal level in 1957.

I believed what He said then and I believe Him now. So sue me.:)

Please explain 1 John 1:7 and 1 John 3:15. How do they work with your belief. I just don’t see how it is possible.
 
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If Jesus paid for your future sin, then it would be impossible to confess sins so as to be forgiven of them according to 1 John 1:9.
No more so than the sins of yesterday you or I committed some 1900+ years after He paid the price. Or for that matter the sins of some future person who gives their life to Christ. Your logic is flawed to say the least.
Also, if future sin is paid for it would give believers a safety net to sin on some level or to treat sin as not that big of a deal.
Excuse me - could you please tell me what "not that big a deal" means to you?

At any rate - when have you ever heard a born again believer say such a thing?

I, and every believer in eternal security I have ever met and talked with, believes and teaches that everyone of us will give an account for every word and deed done in the flesh - whether before being born again or afterward.
 
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Daniel C

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Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by using real world examples. In fact, even a Canaanite woman had expounded upon Christ’s parable with a Parable of her own and Jesus commended her faith because of it (See Matthew 15:21-28).


Pride. As in you.

That was not diminishing the eternal gift of salvation like you've been doing,that was discussing who should be the recipients of it,first.

That's ok keep going,salvation to you probably is worth as much as a beat up ford.
 
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Daniel C

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So Eternal Security is a license to sin. For you are implying that the believer sins and yet you no doubt think they are still saved. So a believer can lie, hate, lust and they can get hit by a bus and still be saved as long as they believed in Jesus as their Savior, right?
If so, then why is George Sodini excluded? Or do you think George Sodini is saved?


This is why I reject works salvation. You are an advocate saying how important it is not to sin and keep commandments and yet you clearly sin,so why should we take what you say seriously?
 
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I’m in my mid 70’s now and I became born again around a little campfire at a Baptist youth camp out when I was just 13 years old.

As a young boy just entering puberty, I struggled with sins from the jump – even though there was and is no doubt that I had truly been born again on that special evening in the summer of 1959,

I don’t remember many sermons I listened to in church after that. But somehow I got the idea that every time I did or entertained thoughts about certain things I was lost until I confessed and I got saved again through repentance. That struggle to supposedly “stay saved” was the most difficult time of my life until then. Then my Father died and I became bitter toward the Lord.

I suppose that played a part in my leaving the faith and eventually becoming agnostic. But mostly it was the struggle to stay saved by refraining from sin and or confessing and coming to salvation again and again that convince me that this was no way to live my life and I would do it no longer.

I lived a life of profound sin until I was 30 or so when the Lord drug me back into a life in the Kingdom of God after I kicked against the goads for quite some time leading up to that.

The first thing I determined to understand about Christianity was what the scriptures taught about “how one stay’s saved” and makes it to Heaven. I embarked on the most important theological quest I have entered into in the last 6 decades of study of the Bible and teaching God’s Word to others.

I have revisited that subject many times since then – particularly when challenged in debates such as this one. But I have not changed my opinion concerning how one gets saved, stays saved, and finally makes it to Heaven one bit.

It has been my experience that not only does a belief in eternal security not lead to a life of sin – the opposite belief often leads to a life far away from a supposedly vengeful God who places a person on the throne with His Son in the Kingdom of God, kicks him off when He fails to live up to some standard, and places him back on when and if he is contrite enough and trying hard enough to be saved – again and again and again and again and again and again until the day he dies (hopefully in a state of grace when he passes over to the other side).

I have had many victories over sin in my life. But, I have to admit that there is one particular sin that has troubled me since that first day I was saved. It has troubled me less and less as I age – but it’s still lurking there ready to raise its ugly head when I let my guard down.

Nothing would make me happier than not to sin again in any way – ever in my life.

But the day I sin no more in any way I kind of think that the Lord will take me home because I will likely grow no more. I will have maxed out In the sanctification process and He will have no more to use me for in my old age .

But I pray with all my heart that the day I sin no more and I feel personal pride because I have finally arrived at being worthy of Heaven -- and most particularly if I feel that my victory over committed sin has somehow contributed to the work of my Savior God when He suffered and shed His blood at Calvary for my sins – that God will strike me dead because I will have sinned once more and that sin will have been more grievous than all my other many sins combined.

P.S.
if anyone here has had more victory over sin that I have or has managed to not sin at all - I'm very happy for them.

But if anyone here preaches salvation by works - I am afraid of them. They are preaching another gospel, which is no gospel at all.

They have fallen from grace.
 
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