THE NATURE AND TIMING OF THE RESURRECTION IN BIBLE

BABerean2

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Luke 21:34-36 = 1Thessalonians4:15-18. That resurrection coinciding with the rapture.

There are addtional group resurrections that follow. Revelation 20, resurrection of the martyred tribulation saints. Revelation 20, resurrection of all the remaining dead for the Great White Throne judgment. Stick with Jesus. Look up! your redemption draws near.

You cannot have a "time of the judgment of the dead" in the passage below, without a bodily resurrection of the dead, as found in John 5:27-30.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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LittleLambofJesus

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It is difficult to find much on the timing and nature of the resurrection from a Futurist view, so if any members here know of some, please post.
I am Partial Preterist/Idealist/Amill so I lean toward Preterist studies [and no, I do not ascribe to Full/Hyper preterism, as least not for now, as there is still the final resurrection and white throne judgement]
All 3 of these views are considered orthodox on CF:
Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose
  • Idealism: (also called the spiritual approach, the allegorical approach, the nonliteral approach, and many other names) in Christian eschatology is an interpretation of the Book of Revelation that sees all of the imagery of the book as symbols.
  • Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.
  • Amillennialism: "no millennium", rejects the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth. The amillennial viewpoint holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age.
Another commentary:

Is Preterism's Timing of the Resurrection in Eschatology Important?

Many would like to make the subject of the resurrection a matter of the nature of the resurrection body only. While it is valid to address and identify the nature of the resurrection body, it is also valid to address Preterism’s timing of the resurrection in eschatology
if futurists and other rapture ready advocates expect to build a convincing case.

“When Shall These Things Be” edited by Keith A. Mathison a book that
sought to address the major issues of the preterit view with the hope
of convincingly refuting them, Robert Strimple had these comments
on the issue of time and resurrection.

“Obviously an orthodox Christian response to hyper-preterism must
address the prophetic “time texts” of the New Testament…” , p 290.

Strimple however passes on that attempt, trusting that the editor has
done an adequate job. However, it seems that this impressive line up of
authors did not take the time to read and fully understand the
implications and ramifications of what they had written previously
on the subject of time.

Now for just a moment, imagine you are Peter, James John and
Andrew listening to Christ utter the words in chapter 23:36.
Later, you ask him what he meant by those words and he offers
the wording in Matthew 24:34 .

Would you come away with the understanding that “this generation”
in the former chapter is emphatically a reference to the overthrow of
the temple in A.D. 70, while “this generation in chapter 24, is not?

Mathison realized he could not escape the force of the text. He has
no confidence in the floundering “double-fulfillment prophetic
telescoping arguments offered by dispensationalists though he
does not categorically dismiss them.

He timidly offers the linguistic argument on “ginetai” as an
ingressive aorist, (signifying action in its beginning or entrance
in a state or condition). In other words he would not take a firm
position on this speculative argument that “ginetai” means to
“begin to come to pass,” versus a completed action.

Mathison notes that dispensationalists believe the coming of the
Son of Man (Matthew 24:30 ) refers to the second coming but they
disagree that this generation means the first century Jews.

He also acknowledges that Preterists believe the coming of the
Son of Man is the second coming but accept the consistency of
“this generation” to mean the Jews of the first century in both
Mathew 23:36, and 24:34.

What is his solution? Acknowledging that both views above accept
the coming of the Son of Man as the second coming, he denies
exegetically and linguistically that “this generation” refers to
a future generation.

In this he agrees with Preterists on the time of the text. However,
he opts for a totally different view of the coming of the Son of Man,
namely that it is not Christ’s coming in A.D. 70.

But in the words of Amos, Mathison has “fled from a lion and a bear
met him! He went into the house, leaned his hand on the wall and a
serpent bit him,” as far as this exegetical “new twist” is concerned.

One of Mathison’s contributors, Kenneth Gentry, Jr. offers arguments
on the very text in question that the coming of the Son of Man,
is the A.D. 70 coming of Christ in judgment upon Jerusalem, defending
a preterist interpretation of the chapter against dispensationalist
Dr. Thomas Ice, “The Great Tribulation, Past or Future?, pp. 53-61,
Kregel Publications.

For an excellent resource to help in understanding the time texts related
to eschatology, see Don Preston’s “Can God Tell Time?”
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Resurrection of the 2 witnesses........past, ongoing, future, other?

Luke 22:30
that ye may eat and may drink at my table, in my kingdom, and may sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'
Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

WHAT ABOUT EZEKIEL 37 "VALLEY OF BONES"
Ezekiel 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
Revelation 11:
11 And after the three days and half days, a breath of life out of the God entered in them and they stand upon their feet and fear great fall upon the ones observing them.
12 And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!" And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud....


Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series


THE RESURRECTION OF THE TWO WITNESSES

“And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them” (Rev. 11:11).

The two witnesses continue in that condition of death for three and a half days, according to prophetic time. This is half the perfect time of seven, or half the fullness of time, indicating a temporary state that cannot last nor be victorious. They will not remain “dead” forever! Truth crushed will rise again! It is a prophetic time, the spiritual meaning is found in the significance of the number, not a literal period of three and a half days or three and a half years, as some count it.

The spirit of life from God entering into the fallen witnesses so that they stand upon their feet once more to the terror of those who had been rejoicing in their death, has an obvious connection with the prophecy of Ezekiel 37 — the resurrection of the dry bones of the house of Israel after the Babylonian captivity: “Come from the four winds O breath, and breathe upon these slain that they may live…” The word used for “breath” here is the same as for “Spirit” in Genesis 1:2, “The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters…” As Ezekiel prophesied to the dry bones “the breath came into them and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.” Compare these words with those in our text: “And the spirit of life from God entered into them and they stood upon their feet.”
The word for “spirit” is zoe. It is not the normal life of all animals and even of the insensate creation, but the very divine life of God which enters them. Though the witness of the Spirit and the Word through God’s anointed prophetic company may seem to be dead, it shall be breathed upon by the very breath of God and it shall live again, and stand up in the earth again — raised up to an even higher realm of spiritual revelation, heavenly reality, and divine purpose, glory, and power. Hallelujah!

We have all experienced a personal, individual, inward aspect of this great truth. The word of truth that we formerly heard, the word of revelation that once was spirit and life, but which became to us just a fading hope as the demands and struggles of life pressed in upon us and beat us down and we found ourselves in our own wilderness experience, dry, parched, barren, and dead, suddenly begins to vibrate, coming to life again with quickening power by the sovereign moving of the Spirit of the Lord! O glad day! Within us the two witnesses stand up again! They were lying in the street of our soul, but now they are standing up in the power of God!

ASCENDING IN THE CLOUD

“And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them” (Rev. 11:12),

While the King James Bible says that the witnesses ascended up to heaven in “a” cloud, it is significant to note that the Greek text reads, “And they ascended up to heaven in THE cloud.” On that momentous occasion when the Lord Jesus took Peter, James, and John up into the mount and was transfigured before them, suddenly there appeared A BRIGHT CLOUD — a cloud with a light in it! And out of that bright cloud the voice of the Father spake concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, “This is my beloved Son: hear Him!” It is more than coincidence that, as Peter spoke, a CLOUD overshadowed them and a Voice came out of the cloud. One of the significant facts in connection with the glory cloud of God’s presence which manifested at various times throughout the Old Testament, is that God always spoke from the cloud. This began first on mount Sinai. “And the Lord said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee…and the Lord came down upon mount Sinai…and the Lord called Moses…” (Ex. 19:9,20). At a later time God spoke from the same cloud after that it had descended upon the tabernacle. “And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the CLOUDY PILLAR descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses” (Ex. 33:9).

What was that bright cloud with the light in it from which the voice of God spake? It was none other than the pillar of cloud housing the glory fire, the Shekinah glory of God that had led the children of Israel in their exodus out of Egypt and guided them for forty years! As Jesus prayed on the mount, He was transfigured before His chosen disciples. At that moment of transfiguration the glory cloud enveloped Him and God spoke from the midst of the radiance of glory.

Here I wish to point out a most significant fact of scripture which has entirely been overlooked by the average Bible student and almost all preachers and teachers in the church systems. All the way through the scriptures, from the crossing of the Red Sea by the children of Israel to the ascension of Christ from the mount of Olives, God consistently manifested Himself in ONE GLORY CLOUD. There was always only ONE SINGLE CLOUD. One cloud over mount Sinai. One cloud guiding the children of Israel through the wilderness. One cloud resting upon the tabernacle in the wilderness. One cloud shining in the most holy place. One cloud filling Solomon’s temple. One cloud overshadowing the virgin, implanting the seed of the Christ. One cloud shimmering over the summit of the mount of Transfiguration. And finally, we read, “And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and A CLOUD (only one!) received Him out of their sight” (Acts 1:9). Christ ascended in ONE SOLITARY CLOUD of God’s Shekinah glory — the very same cloud in which He had manifested His presence throughout the long ages of time.

It is when we come to the return of the Lord that we notice a distinct difference in the circumstances surrounding that coming. For suddenly, the one single cloud disappears and we are introduced to a great plurality of CLOUDS! Let us see! Christ departed this earth in one cloud. He comes again in many clouds! “Behold, He cometh with clouds: and every eye shall see Him” (Rev. 1:7). Daniel in vision beheld Him thus: “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like a Son of man came with the clouds of heaven…and there was given unto Him dominion” (Dan. 7:13-14). Jesus Himself said, “And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” (Mat. 24:30). And again, “Hereafter ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven” (Mat. 26:64). Finally, the apostle Paul relates this dramatic experience: “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord…” (I Thes. 4:17). In the C-L-O-U-D-S! More than one cloud. Many clouds. A great company of clouds!

The question follows: Why are there many clouds attending Christ’s coming again, and what are these clouds? To aid our understanding of this truth, let us not for one moment forget that we are dealing with the cloud of God’s glory and presence. The Shekinah. When Jesus, the firstborn Son of God, was in the world John said of Him, “And we beheld His glory” (Jn. 1:14). When did they behold His glory? You may reply that they beheld His glory when He went about doing good, healing the sick, cleansing the lepers, raising the dead, forgiving sins, and teaching the glorious truths of the kingdom of God. I do not deny that in all those things they beheld His glory, but the apostle Peter pinpoints for us what is really meant by them beholding the glory of the Son. “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty (glory). For He received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to Him from the excellent glory (the glory cloud), saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with Him in the holy mount” (II Pet. 1:16-18).

How very significant that at the end of Jesus’ earthly ministry He said, “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us…and the glory which Thou gavest me I have given them…I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one…Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory which Thou hast given me” (Jn. 17:20-24). And this is the crux of the whole matter! From the dawn of creation’s light until Jesus stepped upon this planet, our heavenly Father manifested to creation in a singular way His own glory. He, the one eternal God, exhibited His presence in the form of one glory cloud. But as Jesus approached the cross and the glorious events to unfold shortly thereafter, He disclosed the grand truth that God purposed from eternity to share His glory with His vast family of sons…that glorious body which is the fullness of Him that filleth all in all! Oh, the wonder of it!

Let us see then what great encouragement God has given us concerning His glory. “And ye know how we exhorted you, as a father does his children, that ye should walk worthy of God, who hath called you to His kingdom and glory” I Thes. 2:11-12). Peter asserts, “I…also am…a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed” (I Pet. 5:1). “Whereunto He called you…to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” (II Thes. 2:14). “For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in us” (Rom. 8:18). The writer to the Hebrews adds this significant testimony: “For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings” (Heb. 2:10). That there is to be a mighty and universal revelation of the glory of God in and through His many sons, that very same glory which was revealed in the cloud of old, is evident!

When Jesus ascended two thousand years ago, He ascended glorified in that singular glory cloud in which He had dwelt from eternity. He was the One God manifested in all fullness in one Man, the Son. But, blessed be God! when He comes again He comes to be “GLORIFIED I-N H-I-S S-A-I-N-T-S, and to be admired I-N T-H-E-M that believe in that day” (II Thes. 1:10). The glory is shared, so the cloud which represents that glory is shared. Each elect son becomes a manifestation of His glory — of the cloud — of the Shekinah. Each is as a cloud, but none manifest in individuality, for it is written, “And if (we are) children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be GLORIFIED TOGETHER” (Rom. 8:17).

But now we find that the two witnesses ascend up to heaven in THE CLOUD. Now, can you not see that this signifies an ascension into a higher heaven of the Spirit of the Lord, into the glory of our glorious Head and Lord? There is nothing wrong with desiring to ascend higher into the spiritual heavens of our Father! It is an honorable goal, the aim of every saint of God with a holy passion to apprehend that for which we also have been apprehended in Christ Jesus. But remember, there is a proper way of ascending, and that proper way is in THE CLOUD — that is, IN CHRIST JESUS! It is always in oneness and union in Him! Ascending by any other means makes one a thief and a robber (Jn. 10:1). No one, not even one person, can ascend into heaven by his own volition or efforts, or by his own worth or merits. Trying to flap your own wings to get there is futile! There is no formula, no easy seven point program, no method or technique apart from oneness and union in Jesus! Our Lord Jesus Christ is THE CLOUD! We will ascend IN THE CLOUD or our feet, spiritually, will never get off the ground! Jesus ascended far above all heavens, which would be above all other exalted positions, above all other ruling factions, above every other glory of men and of angels!

The witnesses ascend up to heaven in the cloud — raised up into the perfection, fullness, and glory of our Lord Jesus Christ! This is the highest dimension of the Spirit and the Word — the full measure of the Spirit of Him who was filled with the Spirit without measure, and the absolute purity and omnipotent power of the Word as it is in Christ who is the Word. This is not the expression of the Spirit and the Word in the lower heavens of prophetic anointing — all that is past — this is the fullest move of the Spirit and the ultimate revelation of the Word that will produce the manchild! Let all who would ascend into this high and holy place loose their grip on all the old things belonging to the natural realm and the traditions of men. All the old things and all the old orders are passing away and we are entering a new era, a higher plane, a brighter day, and a greater glory! Let the old things go! Do not set your heart on any old realm you have passed through, including the present “two-witness” prophetic ministry announcing the imminent appearing of the fullness of God’s Christ — the manchild. Our heavenly Father will allow even this ministry to die in the street of the city. Set your heart on the heavens above! Make Christ Himself your life and your very existence. HE is the resurrected, ascended, exalted One! We all have set our faces to ascend up to the spiritual heaven where He dwells, and we shall ascend IN THE CLOUD. Isn’t it wonderful!
 
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DavidPT

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You cannot have a "time of the judgment of the dead" in the passage below, without a bodily resurrection of the dead, as found in John 5:27-30.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.


I agree, one can't have the time of the dead, that they be judged, without it involving a bodily resurrection. What is in question though, who are the dead meaning in this context? All of the dead or just some of the dead? If we read on in that chapter, there are obviously some unsaved folks on earth not even physically dead yet, meaning at the time of the intial sounding of the 7th trumpet. Why should we not take that into account? How can it be the time for them to be judged as well if they are not even physically dead yet when it initially becomes the time of the dead, that they be judged?
 
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BABerean2

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I agree, one can't have the time of the dead, that they be judged, without it involving a bodily resurrection. What is in question though, who are the dead meaning in this context? All of the dead or just some of the dead? If we read on in that chapter, there are obviously some unsaved folks on earth not even physically dead yet, meaning at the time of the intial sounding of the 7th trumpet. Why should we not take that into account? How can it be the time for them to be judged as well if they are not even physically dead yet when it initially becomes the time of the dead, that they be judged?

It is good to see you back David.

What do we find in Revelation 11:15-18?

With the sounding of the 7th trumpet we have the kingdoms of this planet becoming the kingdoms of God and Christ, "forever".

How long is forever?

In verse 18 we find the living "nations", and "wrath", and "the time of the judgment of the dead", and "reward" for the people of God, and destruction for others.


That description is not necessarily in chronological order, but is more of a list of things which happen at the Second Coming of Christ.

THE END.

Chapter 12 begins with a review of history including the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ.


I love you, Brother.


.
 
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keras

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And in Psalms and in one of the letters of St. Peter (in the context of the return of the Lord, no less), the Bible actually says that we are not to necessarily take 1000 years literally.

And while the Bible actually says that Lazarus and the boy were dead, it NEVER actually says that they were resurrected the way we will all rise on the Last Day.

That's why it was merely a temporary resuscitation for them.

Or is it just to YOU that the Word of the Lord has come?
The 2 verses you refer to; Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8, both just inform us that to God one day in Heaven is equivalent to a thousand earth years. They do not say the 1000 years isn't literal at all.
Revelation 20 very plainly states that Jesus will reign on earth for a thousand years.
Why not believe this?

Lazarus and the boy were dead. But they were not raised to eternal life at that time. Just 'came alive' again, as the martyrs will, too; when Jesus Returns. Rev 20:4
They died again, naturally and the martyrs may die too before the 1000 years is over. But when everyone who has ever lived stand before God at the GWT Judgment, the names of Lazarus, the boy and all the faithful martyrs will be found in the Book of Life, then they will receive Eternal life.
 
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keras

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I don't know which false teachers you think I am listening to, the fact I am basing my conclusions on my own reading of the texts involved.

There is no last trump taking place a thousand years or so after the return of Christ. The last trump is the return of Christ, as in His 2nd and final coming. That is when saints put on immortality, in the twinkling of an eye according to the text. If they already do that at the 2nd coming, put on immortality, then do that again at the great white throne judgment, how is one to make sense out of any of that? That equals putting on immortality twice.

There is no way around it, regardless when one thinks the thousand years are, the events concerning the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15:50-57, this precedes the event of the great white throne judgment.


1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

In context----afterward they that are Christ's at his coming---this is referring to those in 1 Corinthians 15:50-57. And verse 23 clearly indicates the resurrection of the dead involving those that are Christ's, IOW the saved dead, that this takes place at His coming, IOW at His 2nd and final coming. Therefore 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 should be interpreted with 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 in mind---like such.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ
.
1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about the final Judgment, at the end of the Millennium. Proved by the sequence of 1 Corinthians 15:23-24; First Christ resurrected, then the martyrs at His Return, Rev 20:4, then comes the final end, when the Last Trumpet will sound and all who have ever lived will stand before God on His Great White Throne. Revelation 20:11-15. Those whose names are in the Book of Life will receive immortality, those who are not will go to the Lake of Fire.
Then Jesus will hand the Kingdom back to God and only then, will Death be no more.
 
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Douggg

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You cannot have a "time of the judgment of the dead" in the passage below, without a bodily resurrection of the dead, as found in John 5:27-30.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.
Bab2, you are not paying attention to the first part of the verse. "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come". The judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18 is not the Great White Throne judgement in Revelation 20.

The judgement of the dead in Revelation 11:18, is the judgment of them who have died in Christ for rewards, for what they have done for the cause of Christ. To take place in heaven, while the earth goes through the Great Tribulation, as God's wrath is taken out on the nations.

2Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
_________________________________________________________

Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

So the servants, who are the bride, which are the prophets and the saints; them who fear God, both small and great are heaven. It is the same ones in Revelation 11:18 below, who will be judged for rewards in heaven - while the wrath of God is poured out on the nations (the vials are the wrath of God).

The first part of the verse indicates when the judgment seat of Christ in heaven is to take place - which will be during the time that God's vials of wrath are poured out on the nations on earth.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The seventh trumpet sounds as shown on my chart.

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DavidPT

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The judgement of the dead in Revelation 11:18, is the judgment of them who have died in Christ for rewards, for what they have done for the cause of Christ. To take place in heaven, while the earth goes through the Great Tribulation, as God's wrath is taken out on the nations.

What I have underlined above you and I would be pretty much on the same page about. The rest of that paragraph I would have to disagree with you about some of it. The timing of the 7th trumpet would have to be post trib. IMO it would be during the vials of wrath, where I tend to take to be meaning after the GT. I tend to think the vials of wrath occur during the 6th seal. When comparing the 6th seal events with that of the events recorded in the Discourse in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, those accounts place the 6th seal events after the GT, yet just prior to the 2nd coming.
 
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DavidPT

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1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about the final Judgment, at the end of the Millennium. Proved by the sequence of 1 Corinthians 15:23-24; First Christ resurrected, then the martyrs at His Return, Rev 20:4, then comes the final end, when the Last Trumpet will sound and all who have ever lived will stand before God on His Great White Throne. Revelation 20:11-15. Those whose names are in the Book of Life will receive immortality, those who are not will go to the Lake of Fire.
Then Jesus will hand the Kingdom back to God and only then, will Death be no more.


I can understand why you might conclude this, yet this interpretation doesn't make sense if you are placing the thousand years post the 2nd coming. I don't even see it making much sense if one places the thousand years prior to the 2nd coming, such as Amils do. Either way, the events of the last trump precede the events of the GWTJ. And if saints already put on immortality at the last trump, why do they need to put on immortality at the GWTJ as well? Unless one can prove the last trump and the GWTJ are the exact same event, until then I will continue to reason it like I have been all along, that the last trump events occur first, chronologically speaking, followed by the events of the GWTJ at a later time, thus these are not the exact same event.
 
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Douggg

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The timing of the 7th trumpet would have to be post trib. I
David, the last three trumpets signify three woes.

trumpet 5 - the flesh torment locust.
trumpet 6 - the killing of a third of makind.

So that leaves the third woe.

When the seventh trumpet sounds, the kingdoms of the world "are become" the kingdoms of God and His Christ. So the question is what does that mean? As already have taken place and after Jesus has returned?

Or the process of taking the kingdoms of this world, the nations, away from Satan's control?

So, we have to look for the third woe (as being attached to the seventh trumpet). That woe to the inhabiters of the earth (13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

In Revelation 12, we find that when Satan is cast down to the earth, having but a time, times, half time left,
it is said in the text.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So that is the time of the 7th trumpet, in the middle of the 7 years.
________________________________________________________________
futhermore.....

Revelation 9 is a segment. That is the way we have to consider all end times prophecies in the bible - as
segments.

The Revelation 9 segment begins with a star falling from heaven having the key to open the bottomless pit. It is somewhat counter intuitive because Satan cast down is the third woe, and it would seem irrational that the third woe precedes the first and second woes.

But we have to consider that the prophecies are presented in segments. So the star falling from heaven is Satan cast down to earth, having a time, times, half time left. His being cast down precedes the segment of Revelation 9.

Cast down he has great wrath. So the woes begin with Satan cast down. Followed by the flesh tormenting locust. And the killing of a third of mankind.

_________________________________________________________________

Get back to the sounding of the 7th trumpet. It begins the process of dismantling Satan's kingdom called Babylon the Great. Which when completed, the nations of this world will be under the Kingdom of God when Jesus returns with the saints to reign and rule on earth.
 
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BABerean2

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Bab2, you are not paying attention to the first part of the verse. "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come". The judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18 is not the Great White Throne judgement in Revelation 20.

The judgement of the dead in Revelation 11:18, is the judgment of them who have died in Christ for rewards, for what they have done for the cause of Christ. To take place in heaven, while the earth goes through the Great Tribulation, as God's wrath is taken out on the nations.

You are not paying attention to Christ's words in John 5:27-30, or Paul's words in 2 Timothy 4:1, if you think there are multiple judgments of the dead.

Keep pretending the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, if you want to make your chart work.


.
 
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Douggg

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You are not paying attention to Christ's words in John 5:27-30, or Paul's words in 2 Timothy 4:1, if you think there are multiple judgments of the dead.
You are misapplying what is said in those passages. Revelation 11:18 is timed to begin when the vials of God's wrath are poured out on the nations.

Keep pretending the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, if you want to make your chart work.

For what seems to be like the millionth time, I don't say that the book of Revelation is in direct chronological order. Segments are in chronological order, though.

All end times bible prophecy has been presented to man in segments.

My chart is built on those segments.
 
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Douggg

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I tend to think the vials of wrath occur during the 6th seal. When comparing the 6th seal events with that of the events recorded in the Discourse in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, those accounts place the 6th seal events after the GT, yet just prior to the 2nd coming.
Well, the 7th vial will take place after the sixth seal event takes place. The other vials lead up to the sixth seal event. I show the 7th vial on my chart. You mouse over the chart, any particular part, click to zoom in.

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keras

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Unless one can prove the last trump and the GWTJ are the exact same event,
The Last Trumpet sound happens at the last event of God's decreed time for mankind as humans on earth. Thinking otherwise is illogical and actually impossible. Will there be no trumpets during the Millennium?
I stand by the truth that Paul was prophesying about the final Judgment AFTER the Mill, in 1 Cor 15:50-56. ONLY then is Death done away with. Proved by how there will be death during the Mill. Isaiah 65:20

Your determination to have immortality before the GWT, when the Book of Life will be opened, is a false teaching upon the lie of the 'rapture' and all who fondly imagine they will be immortalized when Jesus Returns.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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What is the nature and timing of the Resurrection in the NT?
The entire premise is wrong. No such thing as "timing" on this issue. No such thing as a one or two time event called "The Resurrection."

The aim of this article is to show what resurrection is through its contextual usage in scripture.
That fact that there is resurrection is not controversial among professing Christians. The what, when, where, and how's, are controversial. There will be five main points in this article to show that the word resurrection is used to describe different things; and that the meaning of those things are shown in the context of that particular scripture. This as opposed to the idea or "hermeneutic" that seeks to make resurrection a one time future event based on a small number of the scriptures on the subject. There is also no need to go into the Greek words for resurrection, arose, rise, raised ect ect. These are used interchangeably so often to describe the same events it renders it unnecessary. The five points in order will be:
1. That depending on the context of the verses the word resurrection is used to convey the idea that there is immediate life after death that includes a physical body. (Not physical as we know physical, but a physical body none the less.)
2. Again, depending on the context of those scriptures the word resurrection is used to convey the idea of a flesh and bone body dying and that same body miraculously restored to life as in the case of Lazarus.
3. Or, as the context dictates, that resurrection can mean a flesh and bone body dying and that same body being restored to life; but then also becoming a "glorified" body like Jesus. This would also include the case of one never dying first but being caught up or "raptured" like Elijah.
4. Then resurrection depending on the context is used illustratively to describe those who are "dead" in sin yet physically alive, becoming "alive" to God or resurrected. In other words a "spiritual" resurrection that occurs while still in our body.
5. Finally, as the context dictates, a word or a vision of resurrection is used to teach the realities of points #1, #2, #3 or #4. Unfortunately though, like all words or visions from God; there is a natural tendency to interpret them as an event; rather than the use of illustrative language or pictures to describe basic truth.



1. That depending on the context of the verses the word resurrection is used to convey the idea that there is immediate life after death that includes a physical body. (Not physical as we know physical, but a physical body none the less.)


Matthew 22: 23-32. The same day the Sadducees came to him (Jesus), which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him………… 29. Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living 33. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine. Jesus directly used the term “the resurrection” to describe the fact that the patriarchs were alive, not dead and the multitude was astonished by this statement. Why would that be? The belief that there was life after death was held by the vast majority of the multitude. They were certainly not astonished that Jesus would say the Patriarchs were alive anymore than Christians today would not be astonished; it is something they already believe. One can only assume they were astonished because they understood Jesus to say the Patriarchs were already resurrected, something that they understood to be a one time future event at the end of the world. As Martha states here: John 11: 23. Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again. 24. Martha said to him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25. Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: It was not unusual for Christ to differ with the culturally accepted beliefs of his day. What is strange, is that this scripture messes with consensus views of Christians today; as if nothing has ever changed in what believers hold to be true.
Here's an example to bring the significance of this scripture to light. Say there was a funeral of a child who from a family where they were all professing Christians. How often would their fellow Christians seek to comfort them with the words, "your child is in a better place , he is with Jesus now alive and happy and will be in heaven waiting for you." It's comforting and true! Yet if someone said the same words like this: "He is with Jesus now resurrected and happy and will be in heaven waiting for you." There would be looks of puzzlement, people may be offended, in fact the person in question may get a call from the pastor. Yet this is exactly how Jesus used the word resurrection, to describe the fact of immediate life after death that has nothing to do with dead bodies made alive, graves opening or future events.
There is something further to notice about Jesus’ answer in Matthew 22:30 concerning the physical nature of the simple life after death resurrected body: For in the resurrection they ….. are as the angels of God in heaven. The Bible calls angels spirits in Hebrews 1:14. Are they not all ministering spirits..... Yet angels throughout the scripture have physical bodies. They may not be physical as we understand physical, but in the scriptures they eat, drink, appear, disappear, walk through walls, are constantly mistaken for men, and take on different form, walk in fire, etc. etc. The point being is that our "inward" man is a spirit, just like the angels are spirits. We are not a cloud or a mist that floats around when these bodies die. When we step out of these bodies we step out on feet, we have legs, we have a body. It is physical, just not flesh and bone as we know physical right now. This can be seen in great detail in the scriptures below.
Here are three Bible stories that demonstrate point #1 again but also point #3 where a mans earthy physical body was changed into a heavenly physical body. Deuteronomy 34: 5. So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab , according to the word of the Lord. 6. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knows of his tomb unto this day. 2 Kings 2:11. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Luke 9: 28. About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up to a mountain to pray. 29. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30. Two men, Moses and Elijah, 31.Appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.: We have two men. One of them, Moses; died, buried, his body still in the ground. The other Elijah, caught away to heaven. Yet here they are, both speaking to Jesus with the same bodies: they are alive, resurrected, and they have the appearance of angels. If resurrection is a one time future event how did this make it into the Bible? Moses has the same body as Elijah, Moses dead and buried and Elijah "raptured." See how this fits into the narrative of Jesus that in the resurrection they are physically. like the angels?
In another example of point #1 we have a story that includes someone who did not go to heaven but hell: Luke 16: 19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day. 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there. 27. Then he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brothers; that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment. 29. Abraham answered him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. This is not the end of the world; the rich man still has unbelieving kinfolk on earth, and Jesus said there "was" a certain rich man, indicating this happened in the past, before Christ and the NT. Also these individuals have physical bodies that are recognizable; the rich man recognizes both Lazarus and Abraham. Then there is the use of this language: he lifted up his eyes and saw; he is thirsty and wants a drop of water on his tongue because he is tormented in fire, clearly indicating a body. Plus he still cares for the welfare of his family even though he is in hell. These are not awaiting resurrection, they are already resurrected and it is the past. So how can it be said that the Bible teaches a one time future event called the resurrection when we have these examples of people already resurrected?

The rest of the article: Resurrection
 
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Douggg

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Your determination to have immortality before the GWT, when the Book of Life will be opened, is a false teaching upon the lie of the 'rapture' and all who fondly imagine they will be immortalized when Jesus Returns.
The rapture is only half of the event. The other half is the resurrection of them who's bodies are asleep in Christ. So all of the bodies will be alive when they meet Jesus in the air. "Come up hither" not "stay on the earth".

The soul receives eternal life when a person receives Jesus.

The redemption of the body to life, it's immortality, incorruptible, of Christians whether asleep or alive at the time, is by the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

Followed by the redemption of the bodies of the martyred tribulation saints.

Followed by them at the Great White Throne Judgment, who's name are found in the book of life.
 
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DavidPT

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The Last Trumpet sound happens at the last event of God's decreed time for mankind as humans on earth. Thinking otherwise is illogical and actually impossible. Will there be no trumpets during the Millennium?
I stand by the truth that Paul was prophesying about the final Judgment AFTER the Mill, in 1 Cor 15:50-56. ONLY then is Death done away with. Proved by how there will be death during the Mill. Isaiah 65:20

How many trumpets are there in the book of Revelation? 7, right? Not 8 or 9 or 10, etc, 7. What does that tell us about trumpets in Revelation? That the 7th trumpet is obviously the last trumpet, the fact there is no mention of an 8th trumpet, etc, in that book.

Let's look at what takes place during the 7th trumpet then.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Does not verse 18 say this----and the time of the dead, that they should be judged---and does not that happen at the last trumpet? Keeping in mind that there is no mention of an 8th trumpet, etc, in that book. Therefore, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 is obviously referring to the 7th trumpet when it is then the time of the dead, that they should be judged(Revelation 11:18), and that the Lord shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great.

In context, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 only has saved saints in mind, and for certain not the lost as well. Verse 57 clearly proves that point----But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Corinthians 15:57).

That should mean, in context as well, in Revelation 11:18, it too only has saved saints in mind, and not the lost as well.


Your determination to have immortality before the GWT, when the Book of Life will be opened, is a false teaching upon the lie of the 'rapture' and all who fondly imagine they will be immortalized when Jesus Returns.


You would do better to quit assuming things about what others allegedly do or don't do. Why not just ask instead, rather than assume you are correct why this person does or does not do this or that, etc? This strawman argument of yours about the rapture doesn't apply to me, so why wrongly assume it does?
 
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DavidPT

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The rapture is only half of the event. The other half is the resurrection of them who's bodies are asleep in Christ. So all of the bodies will be alive when they meet Jesus in the air. "Come up hither" not "stay on the earth".

The soul receives eternal life when a person receives Jesus.

The redemption of the body to life, it's immortality, incorruptible, of Christians whether asleep or alive at the time, is by the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

Followed by the redemption of the bodies of the martyred tribulation saints.

Followed by them at the Great White Throne Judgment, who's name are found in the book of life.



So what and when do you think the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15 is referring to? Do you connect it to 1Thessalonians 4:15-18, as I do?
 
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