Orthodox Churches and Crucifixes ?

All4Christ said:

I was wondering where my post went looks like it posted...albeit in the wrong forum

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I'm just glad to see I'm not alone doing things like that around the forums lol !

David Cabrera said:

For someone who usually criticizes Catholicism is kind of ironic that you come to accuse Orthodoxy of "Crypto-Nestorianism" because Orthodox deny Roman Catholic concepts.

Christ gave Himself voluntarily to His death, that does not mean He didn't suffer but He is the King who gave His life for His people to bring them salvation not like a Western kind of "martyr" who talked about injustice and was executed.

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Again, I ask the question, why is He incapable of being both?

ArmyMatt said:

that's not pop-apologetics and saying that suffering isn't good is not the same as saying it should be ignored.

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So suffering has no benefit.

TheLostCoin said:

Again, I ask the question, why is He incapable of being both?

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TheLostCoin said:

So suffering has no benefit.

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Where are you getting this from?

TheLostCoin said:

Again, I ask the question, why is He incapable of being both?

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And I find the idea that Christ's Crucifixion and death isn't THE role-model, for those called to be martyrs, to be completely ahistorical and absurd, considering that not only Jesus makes this connection Himself ("If the world hates you, know that it hated Me first"; "If they persecute me, they will persecute you"; "Your own parents will turn you over because of me, those who love their parents more than Me are not worthy of Me," etc.), and the fact that the lives of martyrs (including the Apostles who were martyred) more often than not, in their lives, emulate Christ to some degree when He was going through His passion. Saint Peter's and Saint Andrew's martyrdoms are the most pertinent example; Saint Stephen asked for the forgiveness of their murderer's sin, Saint Juvenaly and Saint Vasily Martysz did not resist their death knowing their demise, etc.

prodromos said:

Where are you getting this from?

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Surely, if suffering is not "good for the Orthodox," it can't be beneficial, correct?

My ideas don't come from exclusively Orthodox pop-apologetics, but my own experiences and studies through various denominations and my own studies.

Surely one has to leave pop-apologetics to some degree to know historical facts.

TheLostCoin said:

So suffering has no benefit.

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no, it certainly can and often does, but that doesn't mean it's good.

TheLostCoin said:

Surely, if suffering is not "good for the Orthodox," it can't be beneficial, correct?

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God can and does turn evil to His purposes, and His Saints are often proven through their response to suffering. None of that makes suffering good, only the right response to suffering can be good.

The Orthodox Church is very well acquainted with suffering, and many in the Church have been revealed as Saints through their suffering. We still don't consider suffering as good.

TheLostCoin said:

Again, I ask the question, why is He incapable of being both?

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It is but his suffering is not the main point.

ArmyMatt said:

no, it certainly can and often does, but that doesn't mean it's good.

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Anthony Bloom has a talk on this that I posted a few weeks ago. the interviewer kept pressing him on the question of whether suffering was good, whether God wants it, and he kept saying: “God wants us to love, and in this sinful world love is often suffering”

He really emphasized and repeated that point when the guy kept asking him about suffering.

AMM said:

Anthony Bloom has a talk on this that I posted a few weeks ago. the interviewer kept pressing him on the question of whether suffering was good, whether God wants it, and he kept saying: “God wants us to love, and in this sinful world love is often suffering”

He really emphasized and repeated that point when the guy kept asking him about suffering.

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yep, love can transfigure anything, even suffering.

Okay, thanks guys. I get it now.

We suffer as a result of sin, and Christ entered into our suffering. As a result, suffering can now be salvific if experienced in faith and thanksgiving. As with many other things, Satan meant it for evil, but God uses it for good.

TheLostCoin said:

Again, I ask the question, why is He incapable of being both?

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In the Great Friday services, this verse is read which contrasts both

A dread and marvelous mystery we see come to pass this day. He whom none may touch is seized; He who looses Adam from the curse is bound. He who tries the hearts and inner thoughts of man is unjustly brought to trial. He who closed the abyss is shut in prison. He before whom the powers of heaven stand with trembling, stands before Pilate; the Creator is struck by the hand of His creature. He who comes to judge the living and the dead is condemned to the Cross; the Destroyer of hell is enclosed in a tomb. O Thou who dost endure all these things in Thy tender love, who hast saved all men from the curse, O long-suffering Lord, glory to Thee.

GreekOrthodox said:

In the Great Friday services, this verse is read which contrasts both

A dread and marvelous mystery we see come to pass this day. He whom none may touch is seized; He who looses Adam from the curse is bound. He who tries the hearts and inner thoughts of man is unjustly brought to trial. He who closed the abyss is shut in prison. He before whom the powers of heaven stand with trembling, stands before Pilate; the Creator is struck by the hand of His creature. He who comes to judge the living and the dead is condemned to the Cross; the Destroyer of hell is enclosed in a tomb. O Thou who dost endure all these things in Thy tender love, who hast saved all men from the curse, O long-suffering Lord, glory to Thee.

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And on Holy Thursday there's this which, in addition to being incredibly beautiful in lyrics and "performance" (if we can call that), expresses a similar thing


Today is hung upon the Cross, He who suspended the Earth amid the waters.
A crown of thorns crowns Him, Who is the King of Angels.
He Who wrapped the Heavens in clouds, is clothed with the purple of mockery.
He who freed Adam in the Jordan, is slapped in the face.
He was transfixed with nails, Who is the Bridegroom of the Church.
He was pierced with a spear, Who is the Son of the Virgin
We venerate Your Passion, O Christ. Show us also Your glorious Resurrection

(and I'm reading from Hopko's "The Winter Pascha" and I see that there is an analogous hymn for the Nativity: http://dce.oca.org/assets/files/resources/91.pdf)

TheLostCoin said:

Okay, thanks guys. I get it now.

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I hope you got it sorted out.

Forgive me, I'm so little on the forums these days I miss a lot. But the impression I got from your question is similar to a number of questions that have come up for me over the past several years (especially the first few years).

It seems there are a number of points we hold in contrast within Orthodox Christianity. So there are already contrasts and tensions of beliefs.

But when you throw in a comparison - to "the west" or Catholicism or Protestantism - then there is an additional point along the spectrum that upsets the balance of our particularly held tension, and some amount of writing goes into trying to balance that out. It has the result of making it a bit harder to determine exactly what is the Orthodox mindset.

Many of my questions were slowly resolved in being exposed in Church, especially, and sometimes through writings, etc. I still have those kinds of questions come up. I suspect it takes a lifetime (at least whatever I've got left) to really reach an understanding that still won't be complete.

At least it's not boring.

(I remember I could be VERY competent in theology and practice within two years of most any denomination I became a part of in the past. Orthodoxy on the other hand I think it's impossible I could ever say that. )

~Anastasia~ said:

(I remember I could be VERY competent in theology and practice within two years of most any denomination I became a part of in the past. Orthodoxy on the other hand I think it's impossible I could ever say that. )

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I can agree with that for sure!

I considered myself quite knowledgeable about Lutheran theology back in those days, and competent/familiar enough with Catholicism and the various protestant branches to be able to explain them, understand them, etc. And now with Orthodoxy -- every time someone asks me a question I realize I know so little. (Part of this is also that I've only been in the Church for not even a year, whereas my deep study into Lutheranism began about 6 years ago, but I don't foresee myself being nearly as confident (or arrogant, to be more precise) as I was with Lutheranism)

Orthodoxy is like the ocean, and I've barely stepped on the beach.

AMM said:

I can agree with that for sure!

I considered myself quite knowledgeable about Lutheran theology back in those days, and competent/familiar enough with Catholicism and the various protestant branches to be able to explain them, understand them, etc. And now with Orthodoxy -- every time someone asks me a question I realize I know so little. (Part of this is also that I've only been in the Church for not even a year, whereas my deep study into Lutheranism began about 6 years ago, but I don't foresee myself being nearly as confident (or arrogant, to be more precise) as I was with Lutheranism)

Orthodoxy is like the ocean, and I've barely stepped on the beach.

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Our backgrounds in terms of time and former denominations may be different (I'd say Lutheranism and Catholicism are the two with the most extensive theology) ... but I still completely agree in principle!

Barely scratched the surface. Any my priest assures me that I know "a lot" (this is not bragging, it was just permission to share info and a little recruiting to serve in a small way) ... yet in reality I feel like Orthodoxy could be represented by the ocean, and everything I know is no more than one wave maybe.

The richness delights me. And it's humbling too. I still desire to learn, but my motivation and goal are different since mastery is no longer a possibility.

~Anastasia~ said:

Our backgrounds in terms of time and former denominations may be different (I'd say Lutheranism and Catholicism are the two with the most extensive theology) ... but I still completely agree in principle!

Barely scratched the surface. Any my priest assures me that I know "a lot" (this is not bragging, it was just permission to share info and a little recruiting to serve in a small way) ... yet in reality I feel like Orthodoxy could be represented by the ocean, and everything I know is no more than one wave maybe.

The richness delights me. And it's humbling too. I still desire to learn, but my motivation and goal are different since mastery is no longer a possibility.

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It might be because some ideas of our Western Christian background comes to mind but then we realise Orthodoxy can be different. For example, some prayers can sound like worshipping because of our Protestant background even when that is not the case.