BACs stay righteous through their obedience

BCsenior said:

Yes, the 12 disciples were born-again in John 20:22.

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Actually Jesus said they are not of this world in John 17.

aiki said:

How, then, is the unbelief of the Israelites and God's judgment upon them made into a threat of lost salvation?

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Those who do not believe are broken off from the “Olive Tree” (God’s Covenant). Notice Paul warns the Gentiles of also being broken off if they are conceited or turn to unbelief.

“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:17-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

BCsenior said:

IMO, justified by faith is initially at the moment of receiving the Spirit.
I don't see that God's grace is guaranteed to last forever.

IMO, the NT's meaning of belief and faith is far different than secular Greek.
Yes, there is no one word that can encompass the true NT meaning of belief and faith.
Hence, the disastrous confusion about what the NT is actually saying!

Not the least bit surprising because Satan in the god of this age, etc.
It's a piece of cake for him to lie to and deceive Christians.
Many spiritual Truths are only learned through spiritual revelation.

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Grace will always be available to anyone who will accept it. There is no point where a person who comes to Christ will be turned away. But coming to Christ is more than a mere profession of faith but a faith that produces evidence thru love and devotion to God.

BCsenior said:

The whole John 15 warning is lost on almost everyone here ...
like all of the other NT warnings about the possibility of losing salvation
... because the N.A. church is FAST ASLEEP.

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John 15 is irrefutable. Trust me I tried lol. It is the passage of scripture that made me reevaluate my entire beliefs and change from reformed theology to Orthodox theology. The only way to interpret John 15 in a way that does not refute reformed theology is to deny what Jesus actually said. I’ve seen people time & time again claim that those who don’t abide in Christ were never in Christ and completely disregard the fact that He just told His faithful 11 apostles to abide in Him for without Him they can do nothing. Jesus is speaking to true believers who are in Christ. If they were incapable of failing to abide there would be no need for Jesus to warn them of the consequences of failing to abide.

BCsenior said:

Here again we have a problem ... are you talking about initially?
Or are you talking about OSAS people who are blindly relying
on God's grace and doing what they feel like doing?

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Romans 11:17-23 the Israelites who were broken off for unbelief will be grafted in if they repent of their unbelief. God will always accept someone back who repents and turns to Him. This is not OSAS because it is conditional and contingent upon their repentance.

BCsenior said:

Here again we have a problem ... are you talking about initially?
Or are you talking about OSAS people who are blindly relying
on God's grace and doing what they feel like doing?

Believers are turned away (they fall from grace),
e.g. when they insist on habitually sinning w/o repentance.
In this condition, they are dead meat on their way to hell.

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Unless they repent and turn back to God. I’m sorry I didn’t notice you said without repentance. Yes without repentance they will not receive eternal life.

BCsenior said:

I was only talking about people in the OT, i.e. before the Spirit replaced Jesus.

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Off topic but how do you Evangelise? How do you win people to Christ?

BNR32FAN said:

John 15 Jesus tells His 11 faithful apostles to abide in Him even explaining the consequences of failing to abide in Him which result in loss of salvation. If what your saying is true then The Father could not cut off branches who are in Christ who do not bear fruit and no one could fail to abide in Christ as He said in John 15:6.

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Well, I don't read the passage through your saved-and-lost lens so I don't have to deal with the meaning-twisting effect of such a lens. I don't think John 15:1-6 teaches anything like a saved-and-lost doctrine. I certainly don't believe God cuts off His adopted children and that this is taught in the passage. Verse 6 is not speaking of one who has been saved and then is lost but of one who was never saved and his final eternal destiny. And the rendering of "airo" in verse 2 as "takes away" (KJV) runs contrary to the much more common rendering of the word in Scripture as "lifts/bears up" as well as to the common viticultural practices of New Testament times where the new branches upon the ground in the spring were lifted up onto trellises, not cut away.

BNR32FAN said:

The word abide means to remain, stay, continue. A person cannot remain or stay somewhere they have never been and they cannot continue something they have not begun. So only a believer can abide in Christ.

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Of course, only a believer can abide in Christ. Abiding in Christ is just another way of describing the saved state. If one is saved, one is necessarily abiding in Christ. And so, when verse 6 describes a man who is not abiding in Christ, it is clear the verse is not talking about a saved person at all, but a lost one.

BNR32FAN said:

The scriptures your quoting explain how we are justified by God. The word justified means to be rendered, counted, shown, or evinced as being right with God. Just because we have been made right with God doesn’t mean we can’t be made wrong with Him afterwards.

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There is no salvation apart from justification. It is in being made righteous before God by being "in Christ," clothed in his imputed, perfect righteousness, that we are acceptable to God and accepted by Him. And it is only on this basis that anyone is accepted by God. Because Christ's righteousness is perfect and never changes, and because it is only on the basis of his righteousness (not our own) that we are accepted by God, we can be confident that our acceptance with God never changes. So, no, I don't believe a person who has been truly born-again can be "made wrong with Him" or be unsaved. My salvation rests in Christ, not in me.

BNR32FAN said:

Those who do not believe are broken off from the “Olive Tree” (God’s Covenant). Notice Paul warns the Gentiles of also being broken off if they are conceited or turn to unbelief.

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This is just a deflection of my point. The Israelites never ceased to be God's Chosen People, though they wandered the wilderness for forty years because of their unbelief.

BCsenior said:

Mostly by giving people really excellent gospel tracts which explain the basics.
Either the Holy Spirit convicts them, leads them, etc. or He does not.
IMO, man is incapable (w/o God's intervention) to believe in Jesus and His gospel.
Many NT verses teach this!

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Alright Just curious.

BCsenior for such a long time I get every morning something from Billy Grahams daughter (devotional). Take a guess on what it was about. "Obedience" Though I might disagree on some things with you about staying righteous. Praise GOD... there is something He wants us to see. I hope really hope you like this. God always confirms His word. And He did here for me.

BCsenior said:

We’re talking about obedience to Jesus’ teachings and commands!
Continuing obedience is what “being faithful” means!

“… only we who believe can enter His rest … but those who first heard this good news
failed to enter because they disobeyed God.” (Hebrews 4:3, 7)

Disobedience proves Unbelief ........ Unbelief causes Disobedience

“And to whom was God speaking when he took an oath that they would never enter His rest?
Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him? So we see that because of their unbelief
they were not able to enter his rest … so we ought to tremble with fear that some of
you might fail to experience it … IF we disobey God … we will fall.” (Hebrews 3:18 - 4:11)

“… make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving,
turning you away from the living God … so that none of you will be
deceived by sin and hardened against God.” (Hebrews 3:12)
If we are deceived by sin (especially habitual sin), this can result in
departing from God with “an evil heart of unbelief” (Hebrews 3:12, NKJV).

“Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as as obedient slaves,
you are slaves of the one wWhom you obey,
either (slaves) of sin which leads to (eternal) death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading too righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)
Slaves of obedience > eternal life ....... Slaves of sin > eternal death

“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God.
But there is no (eternal) life in those who do not keep His commandments.”
(from “The Shepherd of Hermas”, quoted as Scripture by such early Christian leaders
as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen. It was probably the most popular book
in the Christian church during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries a.d.)

“Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised
to those who love Him.” (James 1:12) The “crown of life” means eternal life.

“You are truly my disciples, if you remain faithful to my teachings
… anyone who obeys my teachings will never die!” (John 8:31, 51)

“Therefore, go and make disciples … Teach these new disciples to
obey all the commands I have given you.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

“We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ.” (2 Cor. 10:5)

“To all who are victorious (overcomers) who obey Me to the very end,
to them I will give authority over all the nations.” (Revelation 2:26)

The church: “all who keep God’s commandments and
maintain their testimony for Jesus.” (Revelation 12:17)

“So, you must live as God’s obedient children.” (1 Peter 1:14)

Question: Must one love Jesus (thus obey His commandments) to get to heaven?

“If anyone does not love the Lord, that person is cursed.” (1 Corinthians 16:22)

“If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15)

“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.
… If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word …
He who does not love Me does not keep My words …” (John 14:21-24)

“Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.” (1 John 3:24)

“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as
I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.” (John 15:10)

“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, (just) as
I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” (Revelation 3:21)

“Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments” (1 John 2:3)

“But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.
By this we know that we are in Him.” (1 John 2:5)

“Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)

“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments” (1 John 5:3)

“This is love, that we walk according to His commandments.” (2 John 6)

“… keeping the commandments of God is what matters.” (1 Corinthians 7:19)

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Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” John 6

BCsenior said:

We’re talking about obedience to Jesus’ teachings and commands!
Continuing obedience is what “being faithful” means!

“… only we who believe can enter His rest … but those who first heard this good news
failed to enter because they disobeyed God.” (Hebrews 4:3, 7)

Disobedience proves Unbelief ........ Unbelief causes Disobedience

“And to whom was God speaking when he took an oath that they would never enter His rest?
Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him? So we see that because of their unbelief
they were not able to enter his rest … so we ought to tremble with fear that some of
you might fail to experience it … IF we disobey God … we will fall.” (Hebrews 3:18 - 4:11)

“… make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving,
turning you away from the living God … so that none of you will be
deceived by sin and hardened against God.” (Hebrews 3:12)
If we are deceived by sin (especially habitual sin), this can result in
departing from God with “an evil heart of unbelief” (Hebrews 3:12, NKJV).

“Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as as obedient slaves,
you are slaves of the one wWhom you obey,
either (slaves) of sin which leads to (eternal) death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading too righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)
Slaves of obedience > eternal life ....... Slaves of sin > eternal death

“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God.
But there is no (eternal) life in those who do not keep His commandments.”
(from “The Shepherd of Hermas”, quoted as Scripture by such early Christian leaders
as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen. It was probably the most popular book
in the Christian church during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries a.d.)

“Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised
to those who love Him.” (James 1:12) The “crown of life” means eternal life.

“You are truly my disciples, if you remain faithful to my teachings
… anyone who obeys my teachings will never die!” (John 8:31, 51)

“Therefore, go and make disciples … Teach these new disciples to
obey all the commands I have given you.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

“We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ.” (2 Cor. 10:5)

“To all who are victorious (overcomers) who obey Me to the very end,
to them I will give authority over all the nations.” (Revelation 2:26)

The church: “all who keep God’s commandments and
maintain their testimony for Jesus.” (Revelation 12:17)

“So, you must live as God’s obedient children.” (1 Peter 1:14)

Question: Must one love Jesus (thus obey His commandments) to get to heaven?

“If anyone does not love the Lord, that person is cursed.” (1 Corinthians 16:22)

“If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15)

“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.
… If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word …
He who does not love Me does not keep My words …” (John 14:21-24)

“Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.” (1 John 3:24)

“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as
I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.” (John 15:10)

“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, (just) as
I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” (Revelation 3:21)

“Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments” (1 John 2:3)

“But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.
By this we know that we are in Him.” (1 John 2:5)

“Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)

“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments” (1 John 5:3)

“This is love, that we walk according to His commandments.” (2 John 6)

“… keeping the commandments of God is what matters.” (1 Corinthians 7:19)

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It is the job of the Holy Spirit to guide and direct us to stay righteous:

John 14:15-17

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.