LDS LDS Jesus Could Have Lost His Godhood

Phoebe Ann said:

Mormons love false gods, false teachings, false commandents and even if you live Mormonism completely, you are not obeying Christ.

The commandments are in the Bible, not in the Doctrine and Covenants that Joseph Smith wrote.

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What I said was true. I do indeed understand the Bible. The true God is LOVE. I understand the teachings of Jesus Christ and the promises that were made by Him. I know that those who LOVE Him will keep the commandments and those who don't LOVE Him will not keep them. I also know that Those who live by and keep the two great commandments will know God and have eternal life. It is a promise made by Jesus Christ Himself and is to all people. However those who do not repent and thereafter keep the commandments have NO promise.

(New Testament | Hebrews 6:4 - 15)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Phoebe Ann said:

No, your claim is unsubstantiated. Your religion is an affront to God.

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(Book of Mormon | Moroni 7:12 - 17)

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

Phoebe Ann said:

Mormons love false gods, false teachings, false commandents and even if you live Mormonism completely, you are not obeying Christ.

The commandments are in the Bible, not in the Doctrine and Covenants that Joseph Smith wrote.

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Yes, Phoebe Ann, we Mormons love false gods and false teachings and false commandments, anything that is true is boring, so let us have all the false we can get.

Phoebe Ann said:

The Mormon supreme god is an exalted human.

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Translation: It is a false god.

Phoebe Ann said:

Mormonism:

The time to fulfill the requirements for [eternal life] exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32–34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and the understanding of the truth; and ‘live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God’” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

1. We must be baptized.
2. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
3. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.
4. We must receive the temple endowment.
5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to:

Love God and our neighbors.

Keep the commandments.

Repent of our wrongdoings.

Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.

Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.

Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.

Have family and individual prayers every day.

Teach the gospel to others by word and example.

Study the scriptures.

Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.


Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow His direction in our individual lives.
Chapter 47: Exaltation

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I'm sure you've more than once posted this … still good for people to read \ reread!

Meanings matter. That's why it's very important to understand where the LDS is coming from when quoting certain passages (i.e. Galatians 6:2) or parrot the same concept over and over due to a favorite passage D&C 130:20-21

In other words the Mormon god decrees … there's no free given of anything buddy.

What a difference the Mormon Heavenly Father is to what Biblical Christian God revealed:

Phoebe Ann said:

Mormonism:

The time to fulfill the requirements for [eternal life] exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32–34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and the understanding of the truth; and ‘live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God’” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

1. We must be baptized.
2. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
3. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.
4. We must receive the temple endowment.
5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to:

Love God and our neighbors.

Keep the commandments.

Repent of our wrongdoings.

Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.

Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.

Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.

Have family and individual prayers every day.

Teach the gospel to others by word and example.

Study the scriptures.

Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.


Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow His direction in our individual lives.
Chapter 47: Exaltation

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So why is it wrong to do what God wants us to do? It is never wrong to do the right thing. It is never wrong to be righteous. It is never wrong to LOVE one another, even our enemy and pray for them. It is never wrong to come unto Christ. It is never wrong to keep the commandments of LOVE. It is never wrong to glorify God. It is never wrong to show our LOVE for God.

twin.spin said:

I'm sure you've more than once posted this … still good for people to read \ reread!

Meanings matter. That's why it's very important to understand where the LDS is coming from when quoting certain passages (i.e. Galatians 6:2) or parrot the same concept over and over due to a favorite passage D&C 130:20-21

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.​

In other words the Mormon god decrees … there's no free given of anything buddy.

What a difference the Mormon Heavenly Father is to what Biblical Christian God revealed:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"And he [Jesus] said to the woman, 'Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace' " Luke 7:50

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:10
​

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It is good to have high standards:

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:10 - 13)

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Phoebe Ann said:

The Mormon supreme god is an exalted human.

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Jesus is also an exalted human, who is said to be 'the express or exact image' of God's own person. So God's own person must be an exact image of Jesus's human person. Does that make sense?

Peter1000 said:

Jesus is also an exalted human, who is said to be 'the express or exact image' of God's own person. So God's own person must be an exact image of Jesus's human person. Does that make sense?

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No, it doesn't. Jesus is not an 'exalted human'. That's some kind of weird adoptionism. Jesus is the incarnate Word of God. Rather it is humanity that is 'exalted', if you will, by His having voluntarily taken not just our form, but our nature, in a true and living human body with a rational soul (that is the entire point of the incarnation). He united this human nature with His divinity without mixture, without change, and without confusion. This is not comparable to Mormonism's 'progression to godhood' or whatever, because Christ was never not God -- He never became God; He always was God, always is God, and always will be God. He became human at/with/through the incarnation, which as I've suggested before seems to not even be a thing in Mormonism, since in Mormonism your 'gods' all already have flesh and blood bodies.

dzheremi said:

No, it doesn't. Jesus is not an 'exalted human'. That's some kind of weird adoptionism. Jesus is the incarnate Word of God. Rather it is humanity that is 'exalted', if you will, by His having voluntarily taken not just our form, but our nature, in a true and living human body with a rational soul (that is the entire point of the incarnation). He united this human nature with His divinity without mixture, without change, and without confusion. This is not comparable to Mormonism's 'progression to godhood' or whatever, because Christ was never not God -- He never became God; He always was God, always is God, and always will be God. He became human at/with/through the incarnation, which as I've suggested before seems to not even be a thing in Mormonism, since in Mormonism your 'gods' all already have flesh and blood bodies.

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(New Testament | John 10:34 - 35)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:13 - 16)

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

(New Testament | 2 Peter 1:3 - 10)

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 6)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

(Old Testament | Psalms 82:6)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

He is the way said:

(New Testament | John 10:34 - 35)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:13 - 16)

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

(New Testament | 2 Peter 1:3 - 10)

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 6)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

(Old Testament | Psalms 82:6)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

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Not found: "Jesus is an exalted human."

You also horribly misunderstand all of these verses in your attempt to link them to the Mormon doctrine of 'god as an exalted man', but that's to be expected since they of course do not support that in the slightest. (Nothing from God does.)

dzheremi said:

Not found: "Jesus is an exalted human."

You also horribly misunderstand all of these verses in your attempt to link them to the Mormon doctrine of 'god as an exalted man', but that's to be expected since they of course do not support that in the slightest. (Nothing from God does.)

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Some people do not understand those verses. What is not to understand?

dzheremi said:

No, it doesn't. Jesus is not an 'exalted human'. That's some kind of weird adoptionism. Jesus is the incarnate Word of God. Rather it is humanity that is 'exalted', if you will, by His having voluntarily taken not just our form, but our nature, in a true and living human body with a rational soul (that is the entire point of the incarnation).

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The entire point of the incarnation was very simple: to establish his spirit body into his human flesh body. That process was, partially described by Gabriel to Mary in Luke 1, especially
verse 35:
Luke 1:31-35 King James Version (KJV)
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

This gave Jesus his human flesh body (which made Jesus the only begotten Son of God - since no other human has God as their earthly Father - Of course Joseph was not his real earthly father, but Mary was his mother). And the spirit and the body make up the soul of man. Jesus did the same natural birth process as the rest of us. He was conceived in the womb by the Holy Ghost and the power of the Highest (God the Father), he grew in the womb until he was 9 months and then was born as a baby in Bethleham on Christmas day 0BC/AD
Philippians 2:5-9 King James Version (KJV)
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

He united this human nature with His divinity without mixture, without change, and without confusion.

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I would like a 3 paragraph, (including bible scriptures) explanation of how Jesus did that?

This is not comparable to Mormonism's 'progression to godhood' or whatever, because Christ was never not God -- He never became God; He always was God, always is God, and always will be God.

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Paul actually calls Jesus a 'creature' in Colossians 1: See especially vs 15
Colossians 1:12-15 King James Version (KJV)
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

And Jesus calls himself the "beginning of all creation" in Revelations 3
Revelation 3:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

So we believe there was a progression, but there was never a time that Jesus did not exist (like Arius believed) but there was a time that he was sat on the right hand of God and was God himself.
Psalm 110:1 King James Version (KJV)
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

And God the Father now called his Son Jesus God:
Psalm 45:6-7 King James Version (KJV)
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


Jesus still needed fulfill his role as our Savior, which was established before the world was.
It was during this earthly ministry that he learned obedience through the things that he suffered (Hebrews 5:8)
It was during this earthly ministry that he overcame the world (Revelations 3:21)
It was during this earthly ministry that he finished his work so that he could be perfected or exalted
(Luke 13:32)
And now could ascend to his Father and his God (John 20:17)
And take upon him the same glory that he had with God the Father before his incarnation and be exalted and sit on the right hand of the Father again. (Acts 2:33)

The interesting thing about Jesus is that he made it possible for all of us to be just like him and to also be exalted and sit with him in his throne. (Revelations 3:21)

What a great future we hope for if we will keep our eyes on Jesus and endure to the end and claim our crowns in his kingdom. So trust in Christ and keep doing well and it will be good for us.

He is the way said:

Some people do not understand those verses. What is not to understand?

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You tell me. You're the one thinking that they are preaching that God is an exalted man, an idea which no one else (no non-Mormon, anyway) has ever found in these verses or any others!

Phoebe Ann said:

Do you think you're righteous? If so, on what basis is your righteousness?

I did not say it is right to disobey God.



Who is righteous?



It is wrong to follow false gods, false prophets, false commandments, false teachings.

The founder of Mormonism was evil:

“Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization anyhow. All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster.”
-Joseph Smith, Jr.
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372; History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476)

He taught so many lies which I'm not going to list again in this post.

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Indeed who are the righteous?

(New Testament | Luke 1:5 - 7)

5 ¶ THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judæa, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.

(New Testament | Luke 5:32)

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

(Old Testament | Psalms 37:16 - 21)

16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
21 The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.

(Old Testament | Psalms 58:10 - 11)

10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

(Old Testament | Proverbs 10:28 - 32)

28 The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.
31 The mouth of the just bringeth forth wisdom: but the froward tongue shall be cut out.
32 The lips of the righteous know what is acceptable: but the mouth of the wicked speaketh frowardness.

(New Testament | Matthew 23:31 - 35)

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Joseph Smith was not evil. He taught us the truth. Though there are many Gods for us there is one God, the Father, the God of Jesus Christ.

Phoebe Ann said:

God is not one of several gods, He is not married, He is not a human who earned that position. He was never a Boy Scout.

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There are many Gods and many Lords. Women do have a place in heaven. The Father has a spiritual resurrected body of flesh and bone like the Son.