Climate change, is it christian/unchristian like to say "You can't change it at this point!"

Is it christian/unchristian like to say you can't change the future of earth?

  • It's christian like.

    Votes: 5 35.7%
  • It's unchristian like.

    Votes: 5 35.7%
  • Unsure.

    Votes: 4 28.6%

  • Total voters
    14

Jonathan Walkerin

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It's fanciful humanism to believe that mankind somehow controls climate.

Nobody is saying that mankind controls climate. The scientific research shows that mankind is altering the climate without control and certain approaches should be take to lessen the impact of rapid heating of the planet.

The problem with this whole issue is that when Christians get worked up about it they act like God isn't sovereign over climate.

You could stick that justification on not doing anything on everything because God is sovereign over everything. Right ?

Perhaps God would like us to address at least some of the problems we create for ourselves without this inherent fatalism ?
 
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Redwingfan9

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Nobody is saying that mankind controls climate. The scientific research shows that mankind is altering the climate without control and certain approaches should be take to lessen the impact of rapid heating of the planet.



You could stick that justification on not doing anything on everything because God is sovereign over everything. Right ?

Perhaps God would like us to address at least some of the problems we create for ourselves without this inherent fatalism ?
The science does not say that mankind is altering climate. That is a political conclusion reached without any real facts. It's just like evolution, just because a scientist says something is true doesn't make it so.
 
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NothingIsImpossible

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You could stick that justification on not doing anything on everything because God is sovereign over everything. Right ?

Absolutely it is unchristlike to say we cannot change the climate. When Christ said if we have the faith of a mustard seed we can move mountains, He meant it.

Problem is the bible already talks about the issue. So are you saying we can change what happens in Revelations?
 
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Redwingfan9

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Absolutely it is unchristlike to say we cannot change the climate. When Christ said if we have the faith of a mustard seed we can move mountains, He meant it.
That passage isn't meant to be taken literally.
 
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LoricaLady

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Problem is the bible already talks about the issue. So are you saying we can change what happens in Revelations?
I agree with you and see nothing in those verses that indicates that the passage is anything but literal. Interestingly, at the time of the writing of Revelation science did not know about things like sun flares or meteors - or whatever kind of hunk of rock Wormwood is - that could destroy different portions of the earth.

The Bible warns us very sternly not to add to, or subtract from, what it teaches.
 
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LoricaLady

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Absolutely it is unchristlike to say we cannot change the climate. When Christ said if we have the faith of a mustard seed we can move mountains, He meant it.
We can't change what He has prophesied though. We can't ask for world peace. The Bible makes it clear that will never happen until the Millenium. We can stand in belief and receive if our belief is in the Bible - and certain events in the Bible are gonna happen no matter what we pray, and are not gonna happen no matter what we pray. "If we ask anything according to HIS will, He hears us."
 
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renniks

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First let's avoid any conspiracy stuff on here like "Climate change is a lie!".

So with so many protesting and name calling because they want to "Save the planet" from what climate change is doing, do you think a good christian should be realistic and say we can't change it. Or do you think its unchristian like to say that?

I personally feel as a christian we need to be honest. I feel we are already past the point of no return with trying to save the planet from climate change. It will take far to long, to much money...etc to change anything. I also believe, and more importantly, the bible already says the fate of the earth. Things will get worse.

It's why I don't understand christians who pray about it as if it's going to change Revelations. I guess I am more of a realist. If the bible says what the future will be, I feel its calling God a lair to try and pray for a future that will not happen.
I'll take option number 4, none of the above.
"as long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease."
 
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LoricaLady

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I'll take option number 4, none of the above.
"as long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease."
Yes, but the Bible also, in Revelations, shows great portions of the earth being horrifically impacted by acts of nature. How much of the earth will have seedtime and harvest, etc? Even today, in areas of famine, those are missing.
 
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renniks

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Yes, but the Bible also, in Revelations, shows great portions of the earth being horrifically impacted by acts of nature. How much of the earth will have seedtime and harvest, etc? Even today, in areas of famine, those are missing.
Just as it has always been... There were famines going on Joseph's day too.
 
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LoricaLady

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100,000 Ninevites would beg to differ.
Jonah was sent to warn the Ninevites so that they would repent. Jonah understood this completely, which is why he resisted going to the land of Israel's enemies to speak of the Father's potential wrath. He was obviously giving a warning not a hard and fast prophecy. What the Lord told Jonah to do does not fall into the category of prophecies like the crucifixion, the millenium and so on.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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The science does not say that mankind is altering climate. That is a political conclusion reached without any real facts. It's just like evolution

Agree on this one. Climate change is just as much scientific fact as evolution. If you have scientific facts to say otherwise feel free to get them published and get your nobel prize.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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Problem is the bible already talks about the issue. So are you saying we can change what happens in Revelations?

Really ? So what do you think will happen to our other colonies in the solar system ? Or you figure it must happen before we get that far ? Or revelations is cancelled when Earth is not the whole of humanity anymore and we just move the goal post to end of the universe or something ?

Revelations can be interpreted in multiple different ways and will be when it becomes apparent when the end of the world is delayed again and again.

Funny that the Bible never mentions Moon or Mars colonies.
 
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Willing-heart

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Just yesterday, I posted this on facebook:

The term “climate change” is true... The climate has and always WILL change. The earth's climate has been going through changes from hot to cold for its entire existence. The only thing constant about climate is change. One thing is for sure, everything changes but God changes not. God tells us through the Bible (Genesis 8:22) that, while the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease. The whole earth and all of humanity will last exactly as long as God wills it, and not a moment more.

To be frank, God will one day give this passing earth more climate change than it can handle when the day of the Lord comes. The Bible says (2 Peter 3:10) that on that great day, both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. We do live in a beautiful world, but more importantly, we should take time out from this passing and disappearing world and contemplate the day we will all pierce that veil into the spiritual world.

The Bible makes it clear (Romans 8:22-24) that creation groans with all the earthquake, volcano eruptions, and the rest of it, this is nature’s way of groaning. Why? Because nature and planet earth came under curse after Adam’s fall, because of sin. With all the beauty that we see in nature, all the magnificent things that we see on this earth, it is still groaning. Why? Because it’s like a woman in labour delivering a baby. This earth is groaning in readiness to deliver a new earth that is coming down from Heaven...

People who think man controls the fate of the earth, don’t think much of God. In the end, this "wisdom" of men will prove to be foolishness. Man-made climate change in my opinion tries to hide God. God is still very much in control and sovereign over all and above all. The Bible says (Isaiah 66:1) that the earth is His footstool. Satan is the prince of this world but he can only do what God allows....

Having said all that, I must also say that we should and we ought to still take care of God's earth and respect it. It is simply common sense that we should do everything we can to protect nature and reduce pollution. In fact, the real problem we should discuss is pollution, not climate change. Taking care of the earth and the environment is still important as it affects our lives in one way or the other. Just look at China for example, and how polluted it is, and how many people need to wear masks because they rather not breathe in the polluted air. Also taking care of the animals in the ecosystem of the earth is a reasonable thing we should do to respect God's creation of the earth.
 
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LoricaLady

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Agree on this one. Climate change is just as much scientific fact as evolution. If you have scientific facts to say otherwise feel free to get them published and get your nobel prize.
Could you name one person on the Nobel Prize Committee or tell of their credentials, much less their integrity? Do you think that just maybe scientists and Nobel Prize Committee members could ever, just possibly, want to be politically correct, and that some might even be hostile to the message of the Gospel?
I'm not that up on climate change, but let's look at what some scientists, who have worked in the secular realm, have had to say that disagrees with evolutionism. (This is a very small sampling. For a more extensive list see: These Quotes Reveal The Credulity Of Evolutionists)

We are told that beneficial mutations are an essential mechanism for evolution to occur, but H. J. Mueller, who won a Nobel Prize for his work on mutations, said....

"It is entirely in line with the accidental nature of mutations that extensive tests have agreed in showing the vast majority of them detrimental to the organism in its job of surviving and reproducing -- good ones are so rare we can consider them all bad." H.J. Mueller, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists 11:331.

Now I hasten to add that in the next sentence he says "Nevertheless we can infer...." that evolution is true. This is ultra typical of evolutionary thinking. If the actual, hard fought for, data conflicts with the theory (which it always does if you look at all the data) then you just ignore it and go for "inferences" instead. You have to give a nod to evolution in the fiercely self protective, politically correct, highly lucrative world of Neo Darwinism if you want to get ahead in secular science dealing with origins.

Anyway, mutations are isolated, random, events that do not build on one another like Legos, and certainly have no ability to create totally new DNA as, for ex., would be needed to turn a leg into a wing.

As for natural selection, it does not lead to evolution, either. What does NS select from? What is already in the genome. It shuffles pre existing information or may cause a loss of information, not the new info you would need to turn a fin into, say, a foot. That is why no matter what it selects from in a fish or bird or lizard or bacteria or monkey or tree or flower you will still have a fish, bird, lizard, bacteria, etc.

But, if you can, give data - not just theories presented as facts in the conveniently invisible past - that a Life Form A turned into Life Form B as the result of NS. In other words show that a species went to the next level in the Animal Kingdom (ditto for plants) a new taxonomic family. There are trillions of life forms on this planet. We're told it happened in the unverifiable past. Why don't we see any species transitioning to a new family, order, class or phylum today?

Let's see what some other secular scientists have to say about evolution.

Bowler, Peter J., Review of In Search of Deep Time by Henry Gee (Free Press, 1999), American Scientist (vol. 88, March/April 2000), p. 169.
"We cannot identify ancestors or 'missing links,' and we cannot devise testable theories to explain how particular episodes of evolution came about. Gee is adamant that all the popular stories about how the first amphibians conquered the dry land, how the birds developed wings and feathers for flying, how the dinosaurs went extinct, and how humans evolved from apes are just products of our imagination, driven by prejudices and preconceptions."

"There are only two possibilities as to how life arose. One is spontaneous generation arising to evolution; the other is a supernatural creative act of God. There is no third possibility. Spontaneous generation, that life arose from non-living matter was scientifically disproved 120 years ago by Louis Pasteur and others. That leaves us with the only possible conclusion that life arose as a supernatural creative act of God. I will not accept that philosophically because I do not want to believe in God. Therefore, I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible; spontaneous generation arising to evolution." (Nobel Prize winner Wald, George, "Innovation and Biology," Scientific American, Vol. 199, Sept. 1958, p. 100)

"The pathetic thing about it is that many scientists are trying to prove the doctrine of evolution, which no science can do." (Dr. Robert A. Milikan, physicist and Nobel Prize winner, speech before the American Chemical Society.)

"Hypothesis [evolution] based on no evidence and irreconcilable with the facts....These classical evolutionary theories are a gross over-simplification of an immensely complex and intricate mass of facts, and it amazes me that they are swallowed so uncritically and readily, and for such a long time, by so many scientists without a murmur of protest."
(Sir Ernst Chan, Nobel Prize winner for developing penicillin)

"Most important, it should be made clear in the classroom that science, including evolution, has not disproved God’s existence because it cannot be allowed to consider it (presumably). Even if all the data [!] point to an intelligent designer, such a hypothesis is excluded from science because it is not naturalistic."
Dr. Scott Todd, Nature Magazine 401(6752):423, 30 Sept. 1999.

Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed shows the politics of Neo Darwinism which harasses and expels those in academia and the media who even hint that there MIGHT be evidence for a Creator.

So, we see that there is no scientific consensus in evolution. There is no scientific consensus on climate change either. What the scientists say today is very likely to be changed tomorrow in such areas. And, again, there is zero reason to just assume they aren't being politically correct, motivated by financial gain or publicity, or are even honest. Scientists are human just like everyone else, and don't have halos.

(On evolution, if you ever want to look outside the box, I suggest Wazoloo vids, starting with SEX or maybe So Ya Think Yer a Chimp, on You Tube. After almost 200 years, and all kinds of advances in science, evolution is still considered just a theory. I'd say a pseudo science theory.)
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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"It is entirely in line with the accidental nature of mutations that extensive tests have agreed in showing the vast majority of them detrimental to the organism in its job of surviving and reproducing -- good ones are so rare we can consider them all bad." H.J. Mueller, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists 11:331.

Now I hasten to add that in the next sentence he says "Nevertheless we can infer...."

Yes, I hear quote mining and taking things out of context is all rage on creationist circles. Not like they have anything else and whatever they mine they have to twist anyway. Like the that example only thing guy said was that it was incredible rare to get beneficial mutations which poor creationist have to twist to meaning that evolution is impossible.

Anyway, mutations are isolated, random, events that do not build on one another like Legos, and certainly have no ability to create totally new DNA as, for ex., would be needed to turn a leg into a wing.

So you think that cat having better claws by mutation A and surviving better having offsprings with better claws that happen to get mutation B of getting better fur patterns that match the new environment better will suddenly lose their claw mutation A ?

Interesting. I can see why this is hard for you.

What the scientists say today is very likely to be changed tomorrow in such areas. And, again, there is zero reason to just assume they aren't being politically correct, or even honest.

Well if realizing that we are always adding to our knowledge of the universe and that it sometimes changes things we have accepted before is another problem for you then trusting on totally unverifiably creation myth certainly feels safer bet.

Of course there is gazillion different ones out there, but the good thing I guess is that none of those can be disproven scientifically.

List of creation myths - Wikipedia

So just pick one to get cozy and warm feeling and no scientist can ever take that from you.
 
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LoricaLady

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Yes, I hear quote mining and taking things out of context is all rage on creationist circles. Not like they have anything else and whatever they mine they have to twist anyway. Like the that example only thing guy said was that it was incredible rare to get beneficial mutations which poor creationist have to twist to meaning that evolution is impossible.



So you think that cat having better claws by mutation A and surviving better having offsprings with better claws that happen to get mutation B of getting better fur patterns that match the new environment better will suddenly lose their claw mutation A ?

Interesting. I can see why this is hard for you.



Well if realizing that we are always adding to our knowledge of the universe and that it sometimes changes things we have accepted before is another problem for you then trusting on totally unverifiably creation myth certainly feels safer bet.

Of course there is gazillion different ones out there, but the good thing I guess is that none of those can be disproven scientifically.

List of creation myths - Wikipedia

So just pick one to get cozy and warm feeling and no scientist can ever take that from you.

When people claim "Quote mine" they are making an accusation that what has been said is taken out of context, but they don't really then go on to demonstrate how that is so.

Your example of a cat having different claws is a perfect example of how evolutionism thinking goes on. Actually the cat is showing the exact opposite of evolution. It's still a cat! Cats, dogs, bacteria, beetles, trees, bees, people, all life forms change. All the time. But that change is always to a very limited extent. The fossil record and living examples show that animals stay in their taxonomic families. So a cat is going to stay in the family felidae and not transition to a different class, order or phylum. Those changes only occur in the fictional so called Tree of Life and evolutionary peer reviews, not in real life. In your case the cat hasn't even turned into a new species. Again, it was a cat and it is a cat now. No evolution whatsoever is being seen.

Notice that I asked for examples of natural selection and mutations which could be demonstrated to lead to evolution, but got no answer. I have gotten answers to that question before, though. I have been told about nylon eating bacteria...that are still bacteria. Russian foxes with certain mutations...that are still foxes. People with lactose intolerance...that are still people. Guppies and snow flake yeast, or whatever that are still guppies and snowflake yeast. On and on. Always the same story. Never any change beyond a new species, if that, and no change ever to a new family, order, class, phylum or kingdom.

You got insulting and sarcastic to me more than once. That is a pattern I have observed over and over with evolution defenders. When challenged with scientific data, why do they switch to personally demeaning comments? Rhetorical Q.

I could give a long list of ways in which the "creation myth" is backed up by science, real science with real observable data. If anyone is interested they can go to Answersingenesis, the aforementioned Wazooloo You Tube channel, and many other places. But this is not a debate forum. Also, if you don't see what I have said, and what all those scientists have said, you are not likely at this time to see anything else I type.

It's between you and the Lord. Bye!
 
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usexpat97

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Jonah was sent to warn the Ninevites so that they would repent. Jonah understood this completely, which is why he resisted going to the land of Israel's enemies to speak of the Father's potential wrath. He was obviously giving a warning not a hard and fast prophecy. What the Lord told Jonah to do does not fall into the category of prophecies like the crucifixion, the millenium and so on.

Why do you think prophecies are given at all?

Jonah 3:4:
Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.



That's as specific a prophecy as it gets. Nowhere in Revelation will you ever see a prophecy that global warming will destroy the planet, in the 21st century. Let alone an exact day. You are shoehorning YOUR ideas onto what the Bible says, and you can't do that. Jonah had a hard time with that. If you did as well (albeit a slightly different situation), that would not surprise me. It happens.
 
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LoricaLady

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Why do you think prophecies are given at all?

Jonah 3:4:
Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.



That's as specific a prophecy as it gets. Nowhere in Revelation will you ever see a prophecy that global warming will destroy the planet, in the 21st century. Let alone an exact day. You are shoehorning YOUR ideas onto what the Bible says, and you can't do that. Jonah had a hard time with that. If you did as well (albeit a slightly different situation), that would not surprise me. It happens.
What point are you trying to make? That the Almighty contradicts Himself? I am not able to read Hebrew and don't have the time to check it out, but I suspect that the word "prophecy" in our language is not always interpreted the same way, and may not even be the same word, in Hebrew as we see in English. There are many mistranslations from Hebrew, and Greek, to English, in our standard Bibles.

For just one of thousands of examples, every time you see "The Lord" the original text actually says YHWH, which is composed of the consonants in the Name the Creator gave for Himself to Moses at the burning bush. Nowhere did He ever call Himself God. Also there is no J in Hebrew, and the One called Jesus was actually named Yahushuah. I'm just telling you these things to say that you shouldn't jump to conclusions about this or that based on our English translations. You can research, though, and see what the original texts actually say.

To me the whole story, as I said, makes it obvious that the Lord wants to scare Nineveh into repentance. Didn't he send Jonah to warn them? Didn't he show mercy to them when they repented? You think He didn't know how things would turn out in that city after Jonah arrived?

This is not a salvation issue. I suggest you take it up with the Lord, and/or research the meanings of the actual Hebrew words used in the text. In our own language one word can have more than one meaning. Happens all the time. How do we decide which meaning is intended? By the context.

All I have time for. Sorry.
 
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