BACs stay righteous through their obedience

BCsenior said:

We’re talking about obedience to Jesus’ teachings and commands!
Continuing obedience is what “being faithful” means!

“… only we who believe can enter His rest … but those who first heard this good news
failed to enter because they disobeyed God.” (Hebrews 4:3, 7)

Disobedience proves Unbelief ........ Unbelief causes Disobedience

“And to whom was God speaking when he took an oath that they would never enter His rest?
Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him? So we see that because of their unbelief
they were not able to enter his rest … so we ought to tremble with fear that some of
you might fail to experience it … IF we disobey God … we will fall.” (Hebrews 3:18 - 4:11)

“… make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving,
turning you away from the living God … so that none of you will be
deceived by sin and hardened against God.” (Hebrews 3:12)
If we are deceived by sin (especially habitual sin), this can result in
departing from God with “an evil heart of unbelief” (Hebrews 3:12, NKJV).

“Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as as obedient slaves,
you are slaves of the one wWhom you obey,
either (slaves) of sin which leads to (eternal) death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading too righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)
Slaves of obedience > eternal life ....... Slaves of sin > eternal death

“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God.
But there is no (eternal) life in those who do not keep His commandments.”
(from “The Shepherd of Hermas”, quoted as Scripture by such early Christian leaders
as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen. It was probably the most popular book
in the Christian church during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries a.d.)

“Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised
to those who love Him.” (James 1:12) The “crown of life” means eternal life.

“You are truly my disciples, if you remain faithful to my teachings
… anyone who obeys my teachings will never die!” (John 8:31, 51)

“Therefore, go and make disciples … Teach these new disciples to
obey all the commands I have given you.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

“We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ.” (2 Cor. 10:5)

“To all who are victorious (overcomers) who obey Me to the very end,
to them I will give authority over all the nations.” (Revelation 2:26)

The church: “all who keep God’s commandments and
maintain their testimony for Jesus.” (Revelation 12:17)

“So, you must live as God’s obedient children.” (1 Peter 1:14)

Question: Must one love Jesus (thus obey His commandments) to get to heaven?

“If anyone does not love the Lord, that person is cursed.” (1 Corinthians 16:22)

“If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15)

“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.
… If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word …
He who does not love Me does not keep My words …” (John 14:21-24)

“Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.” (1 John 3:24)

“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as
I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.” (John 15:10)

“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, (just) as
I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” (Revelation 3:21)

“Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments” (1 John 2:3)

“But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.
By this we know that we are in Him.” (1 John 2:5)

“Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)

“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments” (1 John 5:3)

“This is love, that we walk according to His commandments.” (2 John 6)

“… keeping the commandments of God is what matters.” (1 Corinthians 7:19)

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Ok you speak about Jesus' teachings and move into this ''Disobedience proves Unbelief ........ Unbelief causes Disobedience''

So I would ask did Jesus ever teach Salvation could be lost once a person is saved?

BCsenior said:

We’re talking about obedience to Jesus’ teachings and commands!
Continuing obedience is what “being faithful” means!

“… only we who believe can enter His rest … but those who first heard this good news
failed to enter because they disobeyed God.” (Hebrews 4:3, 7)

Disobedience proves Unbelief ........ Unbelief causes Disobedience

“And to whom was God speaking when he took an oath that they would never enter His rest?
Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him? So we see that because of their unbelief
they were not able to enter his rest … so we ought to tremble with fear that some of
you might fail to experience it … IF we disobey God … we will fall.” (Hebrews 3:18 - 4:11)

“… make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving,
turning you away from the living God … so that none of you will be
deceived by sin and hardened against God.” (Hebrews 3:12)
If we are deceived by sin (especially habitual sin), this can result in
departing from God with “an evil heart of unbelief” (Hebrews 3:12, NKJV).

“Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as as obedient slaves,
you are slaves of the one wWhom you obey,
either (slaves) of sin which leads to (eternal) death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading too righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)
Slaves of obedience > eternal life ....... Slaves of sin > eternal death

“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God.
But there is no (eternal) life in those who do not keep His commandments.”
(from “The Shepherd of Hermas”, quoted as Scripture by such early Christian leaders
as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen. It was probably the most popular book
in the Christian church during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries a.d.)

“Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised
to those who love Him.” (James 1:12) The “crown of life” means eternal life.

“You are truly my disciples, if you remain faithful to my teachings
… anyone who obeys my teachings will never die!” (John 8:31, 51)

“Therefore, go and make disciples … Teach these new disciples to
obey all the commands I have given you.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

“We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ.” (2 Cor. 10:5)

“To all who are victorious (overcomers) who obey Me to the very end,
to them I will give authority over all the nations.” (Revelation 2:26)

The church: “all who keep God’s commandments and
maintain their testimony for Jesus.” (Revelation 12:17)

“So, you must live as God’s obedient children.” (1 Peter 1:14)

Question: Must one love Jesus (thus obey His commandments) to get to heaven?

“If anyone does not love the Lord, that person is cursed.” (1 Corinthians 16:22)

“If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15)

“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.
… If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word …
He who does not love Me does not keep My words …” (John 14:21-24)

“Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.” (1 John 3:24)

“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as
I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.” (John 15:10)

“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, (just) as
I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” (Revelation 3:21)

“Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments” (1 John 2:3)

“But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.
By this we know that we are in Him.” (1 John 2:5)

“Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)

“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments” (1 John 5:3)

“This is love, that we walk according to His commandments.” (2 John 6)

“… keeping the commandments of God is what matters.” (1 Corinthians 7:19)

Click to expand...

True righteousness does not exist through obedience. Not stealing when you want to is not righteousness. True righteousness comes from walking in the Spirit where love frames our thoughts and actions and obedience is the natural outworking.

BCsenior said:

We’re talking about obedience to Jesus’ teachings and commands!
Continuing obedience is what “being faithful” means!

“… only we who believe can enter His rest … but those who first heard this good news
failed to enter because they disobeyed God.” (Hebrews 4:3, 7)

Disobedience proves Unbelief ........ Unbelief causes Disobedience

“And to whom was God speaking when he took an oath that they would never enter His rest?
Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him? So we see that because of their unbelief
they were not able to enter his rest … so we ought to tremble with fear that some of
you might fail to experience it … IF we disobey God … we will fall.” (Hebrews 3:18 - 4:11)

“… make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving,
turning you away from the living God … so that none of you will be
deceived by sin and hardened against God.” (Hebrews 3:12)
If we are deceived by sin (especially habitual sin), this can result in
departing from God with “an evil heart of unbelief” (Hebrews 3:12, NKJV).

Click to expand...

More works-salvation stuff, eh? Just can't keep from preaching this false doctrine. It's amazing how eager those caught in falsehood are to bind others in it, too.

Were the Israelites abandoned by God in the wilderness? No. Did God cut off the unbelieving Israelites from Himself? No. Although the Chosen People did not enter Canaan, they were still protected and supplied for by God in the wilderness. How, then, is the unbelief of the Israelites and God's judgment upon them made into a threat of lost salvation? God remained their God even when they were wandering in unbelief beyond the borders of the Promised Land.

BCsenior said:

“Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as as obedient slaves,
you are slaves of the one wWhom you obey,
either (slaves) of sin which leads to (eternal) death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading too righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)
Slaves of obedience > eternal life ....... Slaves of sin > eternal death

Click to expand...

One should always be very wary of the person who adds directly to the words of Scripture, as you have here.

Romans 6:16 (NKJV)
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

There is no "eternal death" nor "eternal life" mentioned in verse 16. These are your extrapolations, meaning you are forcing into the passage rather than drawing out of it.

BCsenior said:

“Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised
to those who love Him.” (James 1:12) The “crown of life” means eternal life.

Click to expand...

James 1:12
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

Are you suggesting that James meant in this verse that a man saves himself by enduring temptation and that he will lose his salvation if he doesn't? Such a reading doesn't square at all with Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5. These verse explicitly rule out works as necessary to salvation. Whatever James is saying, then, he cannot mean that one could work to earn or retain one's salvation.

Why would a man endure temptation in the first place? Why wouldn't he simply yield to it as the unbeliever usually does? It seems obvious to me that he endures temptation because he is already saved. So, James is not describing someone acting to earn their salvation but acting in reflection of the fact of their being saved. Such a man, saved as he is, can expect to receive the "crown of life."

It is worth noting, too, that the "crown of life" is not promised to those who obey him out of fear of lost salvation, but to those who love Him. It is this love, not fear, that is the only motivation for our obedience God will accept. (See 1 Corinthians 13:1-3; 1 John 4:16-19 ) The fear motive is an ultimately self-serving rather than God-serving motive, which is why God rejects it.

BCsenior said:

“You are truly my disciples, if you remain faithful to my teachings
… anyone who obeys my teachings will never die!” (John 8:31, 51)

Click to expand...

John 8:31
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

Here Jesus indicated that a true disciple of his will abide in his word. Jesus was describing the fruit of genuine discipleship, however, not the means of it. He was not saying that as a result of abiding in his word one is, and continues to be, his disciple. No, he is saying that because one is his disciple, one will abide in his word.

BCsenior said:

Question: Must one love Jesus (thus obey His commandments) to get to heaven?

Click to expand...

The premise of this question seems to be that love and obedience are synonymous. But this is a mistaken premise. Obedience is the manifestation of a love of God but obedience is not that love itself. One who loves God dearly can be lying immobile in a coma, unable to obey God at all. A person may be bed-ridden, dying of cancer, unable even to lift a finger in service to God, but may still love God with their whole heart. Obedience, then, manifests love but it is not love - or, at least, not the core of love - itself. So, no, one does not have to obey to get to heaven. Such an idea is denied explicitly and repeatedly in Scripture (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) Here is what Paul says is required to be saved:

Romans 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

BCsenior said:

“If anyone does not love the Lord, that person is cursed.” (1 Corinthians 16:22)

“If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15)

“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.
… If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word …
He who does not love Me does not keep My words …” (John 14:21-24)

“Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.” (1 John 3:24)

“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as
I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.” (John 15:10)

“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, (just) as
I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” (Revelation 3:21)

“Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments” (1 John 2:3)

“But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.
By this we know that we are in Him.” (1 John 2:5)

“Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.” (John 8:51)

“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments” (1 John 5:3)

“This is love, that we walk according to His commandments.” (2 John 6)

“… keeping the commandments of God is what matters.” (1 Corinthians 7:19)

Click to expand...

Again, you appear to be confusing the fruit of salvation with the means of it. All of the verses you've offered above describe what a believer or non-believer is like or what the consequences of their spiritual condition will be; the verses don't indicate the means of salvation, however. An apple tree does not bear apples in order to be an apple tree. No, it bears apples because it is an apple tree.

BCsenior said:

Jesus never talked about anyone being saved.
He talked about people needing to be born again (from above) ...
... but no one was until the Holy Spirit replaced Him (except for John 20:22).
He did talk about how we should live, or end up in hell.
Woudn't that apply to everyone?
Why do believers think they can get away with sins that unbelievers cannot get away with?
That's insanity, IMO.

Teaching about the possibility of LOSING salvation started with the epistles to the churches.
Please remember: people w/o the Holy Spirit cannot really understand anything spiritually!
So, in the Gospels, those people couldn't understand much, if anything.
The Gospels were recorded for the millions who would read the words and receive the Spirit.

Click to expand...

All believers in the OT were born again (Circumcised in heart). Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit pertained to some in those times, but became common for all believers at Pentecost.

BCsenior said:

Jesus never talked about anyone being saved.
. . .

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So what do you make of this conversation then?


Matthew 19:24-26
''And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.''

I see a clear conversation between the Apostles and Jesus about entering into the kingdom of heaven or ''being saved''. Do you agree?

BCsenior said:

John says often ... practicing righteousness PROVES that you're righteous before God!
One has to be obedient to practice righteousness.

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But love motivates righteousness. Legalism only mimics it.

BCsenior said:

Probably all Spirit-filled believers know that this is a huge pile of hogwash!
Congratulations are in order.

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Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

BCsenior said:

I agree ... and I forgot about that passage.
But again, no one had the Holy Spirit, so really didn't understand much at all.

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That's not the point I was making and actually isn't what your thread is about.

You were talking about Obedience through Christ, or something like that. I asked you if Christ taught a saved person can lose salvation.

Now we have established Christ did speak on being saved I think it's in everyone's interest to go deeper and see if he taught a saved person can lose their salvation.

Did he?

BCsenior said:

This is an absolutely fair and honest question for anyone to contemplate.
But, I did explain why He did not.

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Why do think the Apostles didn't have the spirit?

Something was going on or else they wouldn't have had the power to heal and cast out demons.

SPF said:

Do you think you still sin?

Salvation comes to us by way of grace, through faith. It's not of our own doing, but it's the gift of God. You believe that, right? Salvation comes not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. You believe that, right?

Once we are forgiven, we begin upon a lifelong process of becoming more like Christ, or better known as sanctification. We will spend our entire lives striving to become more like Christ - to love like Him, to forgive like Him, to be selfless like Him - but we won't be perfect. We'll never be perfect until He returns. We will still sin, we will still mess up. But what matters is that we repent when we do.

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But our salvation is contingent upon our striving to become more like Christ or striving to serve God. The scriptures say we are justified by faith. The word justified mean to be rendered, counted, shown, or evinced as being right with God. Of course we all know James said faith without works is dead. Jesus addresses the 7 churches in Asia in Revelation 2-3 and applauds their faith and yet still He warns them that they must repent, come back to their first love, they have become lukewarm, etc. He says to them I will spit you out of my mouth, I will come quickly to you, I will remove your lamp stand. Paul says if I have faith as to move mountains but I have not love I am nothing. The Greek words pistis (faith) pisteuo (believe) and pistos (believer) are all three forms of the word pistis which is translated to faith. All three of these words imply a level of faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty. The English language doesn’t have a single word that fully encompasses the definitions of these Greek words. So translators chose the words faith, believe, and believer. Notice the definitions of these words below.

believe

G4100


Lemma:

πιστεύω


Transliteration:

pisteúō


Pronounce:

pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing


believers

G4103


Lemma:

πιστός


Transliteration:

pistós


Pronounce:

pis-tos'


Part of Speech:

Adjective


Language:

greek


Description:

1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on

2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises

1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead

2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation


faith

G4102


Lemma:

πίστις


Transliteration:

pístis


Pronounce:

pis'-tis


Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine


Language:

greek


Description:

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on

BCsenior said:

Jesus never talked about anyone being saved.
He talked about people needing to be born again (from above) ...
... but no one was until the Holy Spirit replaced Him (except for John 20:22).
He did talk about how we should live, or end up in hell.
Woudn't that apply to everyone?
Why do believers think they can get away with sins that unbelievers cannot get away with?
That's insanity, IMO.
All of a believer's sins (past, present, future) are NOT forgiven automatically!
That's insanity also, IMO.
Repentance must be continued on into the future.

Teaching about the possibility of LOSING salvation started with the epistles to the churches.
Please remember: people w/o the Holy Spirit cannot really understand anything spiritually!
So, in the Gospels, those people couldn't understand much, if anything.
The Gospels were recorded for the millions who would read the words and receive the Spirit.

Click to expand...

I believe the apostles were born again before Pentecost. Jesus said they are not of this world and do not belong to this world. He also said that He kept them by His power. I believe they received the Holy Spirit because Jesus wasn’t going to be present with them to give them guidance like He had been before

aiki said:

There is no "eternal death" nor "eternal life" mentioned in verse 16. These are your extrapolations, meaning you are forcing into the passage rather than drawing out of it.

Click to expand...

Do you believe Paul is referring to temporary life and temporary death?

aiki said:

Here Jesus indicated that a true disciple of his will abide in his word. Jesus was describing the fruit of genuine discipleship, however, not the means of it. He was not saying that as a result of abiding in his word one is, and continues to be, his disciple. No, he is saying that because one is his disciple, one will abide in his word.

Click to expand...

John 15 Jesus tells His 11 faithful apostles to abide in Him even explaining the consequences of failing to abide in Him which result in loss of salvation. If what your saying is true then The Father could not cut off branches who are in Christ who do not bear fruit and no one could fail to abide in Christ as He said in John 15:6. The word abide means to remain, stay, continue. A person cannot remain or stay somewhere they have never been and they cannot continue something they have not begun. So only a believer can abide in Christ. The scriptures your quoting explain how we are justified by God. The word justified means to be rendered, counted, shown, or evinced as being right with God. Just because we have been made right with God doesn’t mean we can’t be made wrong with Him afterwards. He does have expectations of His children.