Did we miss our turn somewhere?

BABerean2 said:

Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?


Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.


Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:


Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,


Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


You said, vs. God said...

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God said- that Baptism in the Spirit occurred starting in Pentecost. The OT people could be filled and then have the filling removed and restored. (Samson a great example) or just filled for a specific task!

Being baptized in the Spirit was unheard of in the OT. Filled yes! Baptized no! 2 different things.

As for Nicodemus, He was born again 5 of the 6 ways a Jew could be born again (He missed being King) So He was puzzled.

the experience of being born again started at Pentecost!

See that is what God says- not reinterpreting words!

nolidad said:

the experience of being born again started at Pentecost!

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Remember the men of Yahuweh who were faithful long before this, whose heart was circumcised by Yahuweh (not by human hands)....

jgr said:

Provide any evidence that you can that Luther or any other Reformer espoused a two peoples of God heterodoxy.

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I do not know if I can! I have not read all there words so I cannot quote them with confidence. Like I said recognizing the difference between the church which began at Pentecost and OT saints was written on heavily once major doctrines had been rescued from the dark ages!

But remember Jesus did not say He has been building HIs church, or will keep building HIs church, But He told Peter that He will build HIs church- a future tense!

The Church is specifically called the Body of Christ~! OT saints are not part of teh Body of Christ- nor are they espoused to Christ. Israel is espoused to the Father and Prior to Israel - it doesn't say who the saved are!

Once again whoa re th eguests to celebrate the wedding feast of Jesus to the Church? Is it the unsaved? Angels? Can't be they all have their clean robes! NO it is the OT saints and the trib saints! Why you refuse to recognize th e differences and the promises is a mystery.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Remember the men of Yahuweh who were faithful long before this, whose heart was circumcised by Yahuweh (not by human hands)....

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I do remember them! They are just not part of the Body of Christ if they died before Pentecost! They are the OT saints.

nolidad said:

God said- that Baptism in the Spirit occurred starting in Pentecost. The OT people could be filled and then have the filling removed and restored. (Samson a great example) or just filled for a specific task!

Being baptized in the Spirit was unheard of in the OT. Filled yes! Baptized no! 2 different things.

As for Nicodemus, He was born again 5 of the 6 ways a Jew could be born again (He missed being King) So He was puzzled.

the experience of being born again started at Pentecost!

See that is what God says- not reinterpreting words!

Click to expand...

You are trying to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

Based on what you are saying, and what Christ said below, the Old Testament Saints cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Do your words agree with the words of Christ found below?

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Hebrews 11:15-16 reveals that the inheritance of the Old Testament Saints is the same as ours.

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BABerean2 said:

Mat_11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.


Luk_16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
(Those in the verse above cannot be under the blood of the Lamb, and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.)


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

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Is your last paragraph- an auto thing now? I have seen you do that several times now!

John 3: 29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

John knew He was not part of the Bride- the church!

As for Rev. 12: who said they can't be? Not Scripture! But those that allegorize the words of God and make them say something they don't say to support their agenda!

Once again when th eSon of Man returns in HIs Glory to establish HIs prophesied Kingdom- Israel will judge the World from Jerusalem.

The church as the Bride of Christ co-reigns with Jesus. And the survivors of the 70th week will enter the kingdom and repopulate the earth!

Once these differences are just simply for positionin the millenial kingdom and not some order of how saved people are. IN eternity- we know of nothing.

But OT, NT and Trib saints are all part of the household of God!

nolidad said:

And the survivors of the 70th week will enter the kingdom and repopulate the earth!

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Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.
The only way to see the 70th week of Daniel is with a time machine set to return you to the first century.

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the New Covnenant Messiah, and then the angel forgot to even mention the New Covenant?

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

BABerean2 said: ↑
Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

You said, vs. God said...

Click to expand...

nolidad said: ↑
God said- that Baptism in the Spirit occurred starting in Pentecost. The OT people could be filled and then have the filling removed and restored. (Samson a great example) or just filled for a specific task!

Being baptized in the Spirit was unheard of in the OT. Filled yes! Baptized no! 2 different things.
As for Nicodemus, He was born again 5 of the 6 ways a Jew could be born again (He missed being King) So He was puzzled.
the experience of being born again started at Pentecost!
See that is what God says- not reinterpreting words!

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

You are trying to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.
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2 peoples of God............Judah and Israel...........
Fully consummated on them by Jesus in the 1st century...........Only 1 People now.......AMEN!

Zec 8:13
And it shall come to pass That just as you were a curse among the nations,
O house of Judah and house of Israel, [Old Covenant]
So I will save you [New Covenant], and you shall be a blessing. Do not fear, Let your hands be strong.'

New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 Hebrew 8
Jan 3, 2009 LLoJ

Jeremiah 31:
31 Behold! days are coming, a declaration of Yahweh,
and I Cut a New Covenant with the house of Yisra'el and with the house of Y@huwdah
32 not according to the Covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh.
33 That this the Covenant which I shall Cut with House of Yisra'el after those days, declarations of Yahweh.
I give My Law within them and on their heart I shall write it,
and I become to them for an Elohim, and they shall become to Me for a people.
=============================
Slightly different wording in the Greek........"CUT" vs "CONSUMMATING [Matthew 24:3]"
Hebrews 8:
8 'For faulting to them He is saying 'behold! days are coming', is saying LORD,
and I shall be consummating<4931> upon the House of Israel and upon the House of Judah a New Covenant,
9 Not according as the Covenant which I make to their fathers,
in day of taking of Me their hand, to be leading them out of land of Egypt,
that they not remain in My Covenant, and I, I un-care of them', is saying LORD.
10 'That this the Covenant which I shall be Covenanting to the House of Israel after those days, is saying LORD.
Giving My laws into their minds and upon their hearts I shall be engraving them.
And I shall to them into a God, and they shall be to Me into a People.'

Eze 37:22
“and I will make them one Nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel;
and one King shall be King over them all;
They shall no longer be two Nations,
nor shall they ever be divided into two Kingdoms again.
============
Matt 24:3 "full end/consummation of the age"

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and consummation<4930> of the Age?

Mark 13
3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives over against the Temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him according to own
4 Tell us! when these shall be?
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be consummated<4931>

nolidad said:

Is your last paragraph- an auto thing now? I have seen you do that several times now!

Click to expand...

There are a few clubs (as in golf clubs - for a metaphor) that are Bab's favorites. You just pointed out one of them.

nolidad said:

Is your last paragraph- an auto thing now? I have seen you do that several times now!

Click to expand...

Brother BAB2 has succinctly encapsulated the essential truths of the New Covenant.

They will not and cannot be disproven.

BABerean2 said:

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.
The only way to see the 70th week of Daniel is with a time machine set to return you to the first century.

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the New Covnenant Messiah, and then the angel forgot to even mention the New Covenant?

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

Click to expand...

Wow when you allegorize, you can twist the Bible to make it say anything you want!

But you forget all the important matters!
LIke when did all the 70week events take place?

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Show from history (not form spiritualizing things) that these happened to the Jews and Jerusalem as told!

So when did this 7 year covenant take place? And when did Jesus (Iassume you think it is Jesus who made the 7 year covenant as other allagorists do) break that covenant half way through?

So about 7 years is good enough for you? Is that what teh 70th week meanss. That the gospel was taken to Jews only for ABOUT 7 years before Paul started to the Gentiles?

So when did the sacrifice and oblation stop around 36-37 A.D. ?

jgr said:

Brother BAB2 has succinctly encapsulated the essential truths of the New Covenant.

They will not and cannot be disproven.

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Well then, Now that we have had an ex-cathedra declaration from Pope jgr we should ask the mods to close all eschatological threads!

But no, unless of course you agree with his allegorical opinions. And no one has shown me why his allegories have more authority than the JW's, Mormons< Presbyterian, Romsih, etc..

BABerean2 said:

You are trying to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

Based on what you are saying, and what Christ said below, the Old Testament Saints cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Do your words agree with the words of Christ found below?

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Hebrews 11:15-16 reveals that the inheritance of the Old Testament Saints is the same as ours.

.

Click to expand...

As a matter of fact they do!

But do your words agree with Jesus words found here:

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus clearly said (unless He was speaking in code of course) that He hadn't started building HIs church- so why do you replacement theology people think different?????

As for Hebrews? Well of
Course those are the pre Jewish patriarchs. they were never promised a kingdom and rule over the world like Israel has been by God through His prophets!

But after the millennial kingdom we all enter eternity and that is not well known what takes place!

Once again because you say god is through with Israel as a nation, that there will no longer be a kingdom given to them, and that the 1000 years is not a 1000 years you have to reinterpret all these and somehow make them apply to the church. IOW To you, God is an indian giver! He said He will, I believe He will!

But I know that Jesus will return in the flesh, judge the sheep and the goats, send the goats into the place of torment, establsih the much written about kingdom, which will last 1,000 years, fulfill all th epromises He and the Father made in teh OT that are not conditioned. At the end Satan will tempt the repopulated inhabitants of the earth, God smashes it, sets up HIs Great White Throne judgment and casts all unbelievers into teh lake of fire forever, and sets up eternity where the city of God comes down on the recreated earth! All according to the Scriptures.

nolidad said:

Well I have listened to many covenant theologians roar against dispensationalism. But they have yet to hit on any real biblical reason why it is wrong!

Covenant theologians use an allegorical interpretation and replacement theology approach to Scripture so that anything God promised to Israel now belongs to teh church. Many even try to prove that OT saints are somehow part of the church or body of Christ which is grammatically, doctrinal, and exegetically impossible.

But if you want to do a little history, most believers in covenant theology do not realize that it was popularized by Augustine and made church policy by Rome right befoe the "Christianized " world entered into the dark ages and the ministers of Christ became more politicians and mass murderers than ambassadors of the gospel.

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jgr said:

But Scripturally unmistakable.

Ephesians 2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

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nolidad said:

Love those verses!
But that doesn't make the OT saints members of the Body of Christ! To be a member of the Body one has to be Baptized by the Holy Spirit and that didn't start until Pentecost!

See that is why Jesus said this:

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Will build is the future active indicative meaning Jesus hadn't started building HIs church yet. If He said, I will continue building my church, I would be on your side!

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said: ↑
Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

Click to expand...

nolidad said: ↑
I didn't know this was going to end up being a large tutorial.

Being filled with the Spirit is not the same as being baptized by the Spirit! David was filled with the Spirit, Saul was filled with Spirit and they could have it taken away! That is why David pleaded in Psalm 51.

But John the Baptist recognized He was not part of the bride!

John 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

And who are the guests invited to the bridegrooms wedding feast? Why the OT saints and the trib saints!

the church is the bride and the wedding feast takes place when Jesus returns! Jesus weds His bride in heaven as declared in REv. 19! So all other saints outside of teh church are invited to the wedding feast! Which happens in the millenial kingdom!

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BABerean2 said: ↑
Mat_11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Luk_16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Click to expand...

nolidad said: ↑
Is your last paragraph- an auto thing now? I have seen you do that several times now!

Click to expand...

jgr said:

Brother BAB2 has succinctly encapsulated the essential truths of the New Covenant.
They will not and cannot be disproven.

Click to expand...

Dave L said:

I believe we are in the last 1/2 of Revelation 20 with Satan loosed and Christ's return immanent.

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So what happened to your shortly must come to pass 2000 years ago theory? Isn't that what you were initially arguing?

Dave L said:

If you look for the symbols of Revelation to appear, they never will. If you look for what they represent, they have been in fulfillment since the beginning of the New Covenant era.

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They have been fulfilled, are continually being fulfilled, and will continue to be continually being fulfilled...

The have passed, are continually coming to pass, and will continue coming to pass...

Past, Present, and Future...

What has happened, and been happening, and will continue to happen...

At least "here" anyway...

The book is spiritual, and is what is happening in and with the spirit, and spirits, and the spiritual realm that is connected to "here"...

It is not Heaven though...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

They have been fulfilled, are continually being fulfilled, and will continue to be continually being fulfilled...

The have passed, are continually coming to pass, and will continue coming to pass...

Past, Present, and Future...

What has happened, and been happening, and will continue to happen...

At least "here" anyway...

The book is spiritual, and is what is happening in and with the spirit, and spirits, and the spiritual realm that is connected to "here"...

It is not Heaven though...

God Bless!

Click to expand...

The end of it is about to repeated once again... will that be the final end of it...? I don't know, maybe, but also maybe not...

God Bless!

nolidad said:

As a matter of fact they do!

But do your words agree with Jesus words found here:

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus clearly said (unless He was speaking in code of course) that He hadn't started building HIs church- so why do you replacement theology people think different?????

As for Hebrews? Well of
Course those are the pre Jewish patriarchs. they were never promised a kingdom and rule over the world like Israel has been by God through His prophets!

But after the millennial kingdom we all enter eternity and that is not well known what takes place!

Once again because you say god is through with Israel as a nation, that there will no longer be a kingdom given to them, and that the 1000 years is not a 1000 years you have to reinterpret all these and somehow make them apply to the church. IOW To you, God is an indian giver! He said He will, I believe He will!

But I know that Jesus will return in the flesh, judge the sheep and the goats, send the goats into the place of torment, establsih the much written about kingdom, which will last 1,000 years, fulfill all th epromises He and the Father made in teh OT that are not conditioned. At the end Satan will tempt the repopulated inhabitants of the earth, God smashes it, sets up HIs Great White Throne judgment and casts all unbelievers into teh lake of fire forever, and sets up eternity where the city of God comes down on the recreated earth! All according to the Scriptures.

Click to expand...

You are wasting your time with those two, they see what they see.

Think of it like this, when trying to explain to these types. God never changes, Abraham was counted as Righteous because he BELIEVED God, we BELIEVE on Jesus thus that is our righteousness. The Jews have been blinded because of unbelief, but Romans 11 tells us they will one day be grafted back in, when they BELIEVE. What is that ? God tells us.

Zechariah 13:8-9 tells us 1/3 repent and 2/3 do not repent, but perish. Malachi 4:5-6 tells us God sends Elijah back BEFORE the Day of the Lord {1260 starts the DOTL} to turn Israel back unto God. So its quite evident that Israel repents, and thus they come unto God like all men must, by FAITH ALONE. Thus all men are the same, we all must come to God by FAITH ALONE.

They confuse the timing. There are Gentiles AND Jews in the Rapture {Paul, Peter and all Messianic Jews will join the Gentile Church Members via the Rapture} There are Gentiles {Remnant Church of Rev. 12:17 and those under the Altar at the 5th Seal} who come to Christ after the Rapture, during the 70th week AND Jews, the 1/3 who turn to Jesus when the Two-witnesses show up. So all men who come to Christ ON EITHER SIDE of the Rapture must do so by Faith Alone !!

They never get that.

Revealing Times said:

You are wasting your time with those two, they see what they see.

Think of it like this, when trying to explain to these types. God never changes, Abraham was counted as Righteous because he BELIEVED God, we BELIEVE on Jesus thus that is our righteousness. The Jews have been blinded because of unbelief, but Romans 11 tells us they will one day be grafted back in, when they BELIEVE. What is that ? God tells us.

Zechariah 13:8-9 tells us 1/3 repent and 2/3 do not repent, but perish. Malachi 4:5-6 tells us God sends Elijah back BEFORE the Day of the Lord {1260 starts the DOTL} to turn Israel back unto God. So its quite evident that Israel repents, and thus they come unto God like all men must, by FAITH ALONE. Thus all men are the same, we all must come to God by FAITH ALONE.

They confuse the timing. There are Gentiles AND Jews in the Rapture {Paul, Peter and all Messianic Jews will join the Gentile Church Members via the Rapture} There are Gentiles {Remnant Church of Rev. 12:17 and those under the Altar at the 5th Seal} who come to Christ after the Rapture, during the 70th week AND Jews, the 1/3 who turn to Jesus when the Two-witnesses show up. So all men who come to Christ ON EITHER SIDE of the Rapture must do so by Faith Alone !!

They never get that.

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Well we still have to try! That is the call of Jesus .