What is required ....

devin553344

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Back to front. Be filled with the Spirit, then you will be led by the Spirit and good fruit will result.

Sure I can do nothing good save God supplied it. But I don't think we should take freedom of choice out of the equation either. I can choose to do good works, and I think God notices that. That I desire to follow his teachings. Will he then turn me away being a good master? I doubt it ;)

I think those he turns away are probably preaching the word without doing the good works. That's my opinion. Getting tithe and therefore paid, drawing near to him in their words and their hearts are far from him.
 
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Carl Emerson

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My family lived in Tauranga for some years. My sister used to go to that church. She loved it. It's good to talk to someone who knows the difference between being "saved" and entering the kingdom of God. Look me up if you ever get to Melbourne!
may be there later this year...
 
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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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Such works as unbelievers carry out do not impress God one bit. Neither do the works that Christians can do in their own natural abilities. It is only what is of Christ that pleases God. If we could do what God requires of us, we would not need Jesus. Many Christians are going to get a rude shock when they see their works go up in flames.

For starters:

Compare Matthew 25:21, with Matthew 25:30.
Compare Matthew 7:23 with Matthew 7:26-27, and Matthew 7:21.
Compare 1 John 2:3-4 with 1 John 3:15, and Luke 10:25-28.

Yes, we cannot obey without accepting Christ, and the gospel (God's grace). But the idea that one is saved by believing in the finished work of the Christ is not taught in the Bible. 1 John 1:7 is the true imputation of Christ's sacrifice to our life. In short, 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. To walk in the light is to love your brother according to 1 John 2:9-11.

Where people get tripped up is with Paul's condemnation of the Law and or works. They think Paul was referring to all Law or all forms of works after we are saved by God's grace (When this is not the case). Paul was referring to a person trying to be justified (saved) by Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace via by the 613 laws given to us by Moses. Paul was not referring to the commandments given to us by Jesus and His followers. Remember, Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4). One example that Paul was referring to Old Testament Law and not New Testament Law is in Galatians 5:2. He says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Then in Galatians 5:4, he then says if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace. Circumcision is a part of the Old Law and not the New Law. In other words, during the time, some believers were falsely thinking they had to be circumcised in order to be saved instead of first believing in Christ as their Savior. This false belief was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24).
 
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Sure I can do nothing good save God supplied it. But I don't think we should take freedom of choice out of the equation either. I can choose to do good works, and I think God notices that. That I desire to follow his teachings. Will he then turn me away being a good master? I doubt it ;)

I think those he turns away are probably preaching the word without doing the good works. That's my opinion. Getting tithe and therefore paid, drawing near to him in word and their hearts are far from him.

Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
 
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I believe we are justified by grace through faith, which is a one time event where God reckons us as righteous on account of Jesus Christ.

I believe we are sanctified by the by the work of the Holy Spirit. Sanctification is a process where we become what God reckons us to be, i.e. righteous.

This is salvation: justification and sanctification. It is both a one time event and a process wholly dependant on the grace given to us in Jesus Christ.

I agree for the most part. However, I also believe Justification continues on into the life of the believer. Meaning, a believer continues to trust in Christ as their Savior. They also would confess of sin (to Jesus) so as to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1). This is again is God's grace or Justification. Granted, we also do need to live holy. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). So I agree that we also have to enter into the Sanctification Process by the Spirit as a part of the salvation process, as well. The Bible says salvation is both a belief in the truth, and Sanctification by the Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13). God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).
 
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The fact of the matter is that a person cannot live a holy life if they are teaching to others that they can sin and still be saved on some level because they are leading others to think God's grace is a license for immorality in some way. So if one says all future sin is paid for, it gives a person a license to sin (Whether that person wants that to happen for the other person or not).

George Sodini thought his future sin of mass murder, and suicide was paid for; But that does not mean that such a thing is true.

George Sodini.
 
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eleos1954

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Wrong. Sorry, you are missing the point. You want to talk about works? John 6:29 "Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.""

The Law simply proves to us that we cannot keep it, no matter how hard we try. The righteous did not know that they were being righteous, because what they did was from the new life within them. When we are born again, we have a new nature. We do not become righteous by good works. We do good because Lord Jesus within inspires and empowers us.

"We do good because Lord Jesus within inspires and empowers us."

Yes ... Of which falls under what Shrewd Manager Posted

Inspires and empowers us to do what? Keep His Law & teaches us what true love is.

Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

The power of the Holy Spirit, Jesus working in the believer ... loving Him with ALL our soul and mind, being conformed to His image, He changes us, His work ... helping us to keep His Law and teaching us what true love is ... we respond out of Love and for no other reasons.

1 John 4

We love Him because He first loved us.

He helps us to overcome our sin (over the course of our lifetime here on earth). What is sin? Transgression of the Law. Without the Law, we would not know what sin is.

Anything good in us is Him working in us and not of ourselves. It's His works ... not ours.

Glory to the Lord! Thank you Jesus. AMEN!
 
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BCsenior

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Hi Gracia!
The NT clearly teaches ...
endurance until death is required.

True saving belief/faith includes:
love for Jesus results in obedience
sincere repenting of sin
practicing righteousness
good works proves salvation
and more
 
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timothyu

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Exactly. Are you from Tauranga? I know of a church there calls themselves "Jesus plus nothing". That's a good saying. I ran out of time to go there last time I was in NZ.
That phrase was started by a group working mainly out of DC for 80 years called the Family. Their concept is use Jesus' name to represent power and forget about His commandments.
 
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Neostarwcc

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for our salvation?

What must we do?

Is our salvation a one-time event, or a process / journey?

How would you describe the salvation process or event theologically, or practically?

I considered doing a survey, but realized that the sheer diversity of possible answers does not lend itself very well to a handfull of answers. I am genuinely interested to know what people have to say on this.

Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Protestant, non-denom, just a Christian Christians, everyone is welcome to weigh in.

God bless all of you.

resurrection1.jpg


I think part of our salvation is actually Christ choosing us to become one of his disciples. Before people come out with an "But, that's unfair!" comment I do not mean the calvanist/reformed doctrine of Unconditional Election but rather, I am saying the belief of Conditional Election. I.E. God from before he formed the world foreknew who would truly believe in Christ and he predestined and chose them for salvation. However, when Christ died, he died for the sins of the entire world as John says in 1 John 2:2 even though he foreknew most of the world would reject him (1 Peter 1:1-2, & Romans 8:29-30).

So essentially to be saved you have to be chosen by Christ by completely surrendering your life over to him. He will then give you the HS who will keep you in the faith for forever by the power of God. If you don't believe for eternity than, you obviously weren't chosen by Christ it's that simple. Christ likes to give the HS to those who he knows has a pure heart and is willing to serve him for the rest of their lives throughout eternity.

Or who knows unconditional election could be true. I just think the other doctrine sounds likely. Not to mention more fair. The fact that God just handpicks those he likes and wants to save is kind of... unfair.
 
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mothcorrupteth

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Saving faith comes from one's whole being. It is not merely an act of the mind--"I intellectually assent to Christ's sacrifice." It is also an act of the body. One must do one's faith.

But if you ever divert from the question of "what" to "how much," you'll have trouble getting "what" right. You will either settle for a minimum and thus never live your faith, or you will guilt yourself for not living up to the quantity of the Saints. Strictly speaking, "how much" you are required to do is whatever is in front of you. Salvation is a process, not an event.
 
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Tempura

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I generally stay away from theology forums, I do not debate, as I am not a man of knowledge and that much is about to become clear to those who might be, but I was kindly invited.

My answer is Jesus Christ. Just Him. I cannot in good conscience take anything away from Him, and I cannot add anything to Him either. I don't know the details. I can't pinpoint the pieces or mechanisms. Whenever I have thought I understand the entire blueprint, the next day has made a fool out of me. I have seen people of strong faith, I have seen people of weak faith but who love with the love of Christ, I have seen and heard a lot from people of knowledge, and in each one - in their understanding, there are differences. Not just differences in personality and denomination, but in how they seem to live their faith and think of their God. I can't say one is with or without Christ more than the other.

The more I try to understand, the more I venture into the labyrinths of dogma, the less I seem to know, and I always come back to the cross. So I just stare at the cross, I don't want to leave anymore. What I don't know, He surely does. I leave my lack of understanding to Him with everything else. Something this important is better off in His hands entirely, instead of even a speck of it falling in mine.
 
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dzheremi

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There are many different ways to look at this sort of question. St. Anthony counseled that we are to control our eyes, our mouths, and our stomachs, and that is one answer. The canonical rules may specify a number of councils to hold to (or not, depending on whose canons we're talking about ), and that's another answer, insofar as holding to the faith of the Church is concerned. I will say I am a firm believer in what you may call 'collective salvation', in the sense that I've heard EO put it that we are "saved together", yet "damned alone".

With that in mind, I observe as the faith of the Church the following, from the Agpeya:

One is God the Father of everyone.

One is His Son, Jesus Christ the Word, Who took flesh and died; and rose from the dead on the third day, and raised us with Him.

One is the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, one in His Hypostasis, proceeding from the Father, purifying the whole creation, and teaching us to worship the Holy Trinity, one in divinity and one in essence. We praise Him and bless Him forever. Amen.


+++

This has all the theological necessities (the oneness of God, Trinitarian monotheism, the direct guidance and teaching of the Holy Spirit, etc.), such that if one holds to it they cannot be led astray into other theologies or religions.

The question of what we are to do...well, I would think the answer to that is more varied. Consider the fourth chapter of our father and master St. Paul's epistle to the Ephesians, where he observes the following (verses 11-16):

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

+++

So God gives to each one according to His will for us, till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God. This we have already in the Orthodox Church (as surely Catholics and others would say of their own churches), and also more generally with all Christians who confess the holy faith of Nicaea and Constantinople as outlined in the Orthodox creed given by the Holy Spirit to our fathers there.

This is the "saved together" aspect, that we should all confess the same truth of Him Who is Truth. As to the "damned alone" aspect, there is likewise -- without leaving the first part undone -- a real watchfulness required so as to be in constant repentance and supplication. I've been wrong lately in my specific attributions, so I will just that it was one of the desert fathers who said that if he could see all of his sins, there would not be enough monks even in all the deserts of Egypt to cry over them. I believe that is the reality for all of us, each in our own way having consistently fallen short of the glory of God. Here again, the Agpeya provides a prayer in the litanies for the Compline (retiring hour) that expresses things much better than I ever could:

Behold, I am about to stand before the Just Judge terrified and trembling because of my many sins. For a life spent in pleasures deserves condemnation. But repent, O my soul, so long as you dwell on this earth, for inside the grave, dust does not praise. And among the dead, no one remembers, neither in Hades, does anyone give thanks. Therefore arise from the slumber of laziness, and entreat the Savior, repenting and saying, “God, have mercy on me and save me.”

(Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit +)

If life were everlasting, and this world ever-existing, you would have an excuse, O my soul. But if your wicked deeds and ugly evils were exposed before the Just Judge, what answer would you give while you are lying on the bed of sins, negligent in disciplining the flesh!? O Christ our God, before Your awesome seat of judgement I am terrified, and before Your council of judgement I submit, and from the Light of Your divine radiance I tremble, I, the wretched and defiled, who lies on my bed, negligent in my life. But I take example of the Publican, beating my chest and saying, “O God, forgive me and have mercy on me, a sinner.”

(Now and forever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.)

+++

To say such prayers every day and all days in complete sincerity, engaging all of your senses by it and thus bringing the body under the control of the soul that is sincerely supplicating God, is the way that we have individually been given. (Though we do pray the Agpeya collectively in church, as part of the raising of the incense.) The same is the thought behind rigorous fasting, abstinence, and all other disciplines we keep to, and why fasting for instance may be modified according to individual circumstances, in consultation with your spiritual father. Your way is yours just as everyone else's is everyone else's, but we are all striving towards salvation in and through Jesus Christ, Who rose from the dead and will raise us with Him. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come.
 
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bcbsr

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for our salvation?
What must we do?
Is our salvation a one-time event, or a process / journey?
If you're talking about "salvation" in terms of a guarantee of our fate, escaping from the wrath of God, that's settled upon coming to faith in Christ, as Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24, which is consistent with the fact that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:1,2

"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined" Eph 1:11 "He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son" Rom 8:29 "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." Eph 1:13,14

But while one's destiny is a settled matter, there is the ongoing issue of experiencing salvation. For example, upon coming to faith in Christ one is born of God, which impacts their characteristic behavior such that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 Along with that experience comes the experience of the perseverance of the saints such that "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us" 1John 2:19 These are due to being born of God, a changed nature such that as Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." John 10:27 This hearing his voice includes understanding scripture as Paul describes in 1Corinthians 2 "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us." and "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." And "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ." Likewise John says of the Apostle's teachings "We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us." 1John 4:6

But many claiming to be "Christian" don't believe the gospel. They believe a different gospel, putting their faith in a different Christ, and no surprise that they don't experience the effects of salvation and don't hear what the Bible is actually saying on these matters, not having the mind of Christ. Consequently they read the Bible in a much different manner than those born of God.
 
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public hermit

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*optimistic bump*

I see what you did there. I like it! I may use that at some future point.

I stand by my earlier comment. It is justification and sanctification, which is both a one time event and a process.
 
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fhansen

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But if you ever divert from the question of "what" to "how much," you'll have trouble getting "what" right. You will either settle for a minimum and thus never live your faith, or you will guilt yourself for not living up to the quantity of the Saints. Strictly speaking, "how much" you are required to do is whatever is in front of you. Salvation is a process, not an event.
Yes, and I think the Parable of the Talents sheds light on this. We don't need to know how much we're supposed to return by investing our talents; but we're expected to return something for the kingdom of God, producing fruit by doing the best we can with whatever we've been given, more demanded from those given more. (Luke 12:48)
 
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