Is earthly Jerusalem the "great city" in the Book of Revelation?

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mkgal1

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This is my line of thought in processing this:



Matthew 12:38-42

Then some of the PHARISEES and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”

He answered, “A wicked and ADULTERESS GENERATION ASKS for a sign!

But none will be given it except the SIGN of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was THREE DAYS and THREE DAYS in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in THE HEART of THE EARTH. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now SOMETHING GREATER than Jonah is here.

The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now SOMETHING GREATER than Solomon is here.

Let’s break it down.

1. Who was Jesus speaking to?

Pharisees and teachers of the Law.

2. What did they ask Jesus?

For a sign.

3. What sign would be given?

3 days and 3 nights.

4. Which generation would see this sign?
Obviously the generation which saw Jesus died and rose from the grave.

5. How can we be so sure?
Jesus said “this wicked and adulteress generation asked for a sign”.

Did you ask for a sign? Who asked for a sign?

Matthew 12:38

Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”​

This is Jesus’ reply.

Matthew 12:39
He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign!

So is he referring to our generation or a future generation?
Obviously no!

6. Why?

Cause no other generation ever saw this.

Matthew 12:40

so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

7. So would men from Nineveh and Queen of Sheeba appear on a final judgment day to judge the world TODAY?

Matthew 12:41

The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with THIS generation and condemn it;

Matthew 12:42

The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with THIS generation and condemn it;

NO. THIS WAS ABOUT THEIR GENERATION!

8. So what does it mean by “the Men in Nineveh and the Queen appear?”

Matthew 12:41

now something greater than Jonah is here.

Matthew 12:42

now something greater than Solomon is here.

It’s because that someone greater than Jonah and Solomon is NOW here.

9. So how did the Men from Nineveh and the Queen rise up on that day?

John 11:24-25
Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.”

The resurrection there is Jesus in person! He was greater than Jonah and Solomon!

Now this happened around AD30. A generation is 40 years.

So which generation was Jesus speaking to? When was the period referred as “NOW”, “THIS GENERATION”?

AD70.

As such when was this judgment day?

AD70.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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It is both past, and present, and future.
In Matthew chapter 23 Jesus described Jerusalem as the city that killed the prophets, during His time.

What do we find happening now in the video below?
The "time of the judgment of the dead", found in Revelation 11:18, has not yet occurred. It is future.

.
There are no more Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees or a Temple around, so your argument falls apart....

Part of Revelation 11:18 has indeed happened as Judgement on 70AD Jerusalem as shown in Revelation 18..
[The final resurrection and Judgment happens after the 1000yr period.]

How do you view Luke 21:23, Luke 23:29 and Revelation 6:16

Revelation 11:18 "2nd Woe passed, dead judged, reward the Saints"

Revelation 11:18
And the nations are angered<3710>,
and came Thy wrath<3709>,


After the 1000yr period and Gog Magog war..........

And the time/season<2540> of the dead to be judged<2919>,
And to give the reward/wages<3408> to Thy bondslaves, the Prophets and to the Saints,
and to those fearing<5399> Thy name, to the small and to the great
And to destroy/ruin<1311> those destroying/ruining<1311> the land.”

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath<ὀργῆς<3709>?
Luke 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath<ὀργῆς<3709>?

Luke 21:23 and Luke 23:29 and Revelation 6:16 fulfilled in 70AD
I can practically harmonize ALL of Luke's Jerusalem/Temple discourse to Revelation....

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
Matt 24:19/Mar 13:17 Luk 21:23 "woe to those pregnant and nursing........

Luke 21:

22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath<3709> upon this people


Luke 23:
27 Followed yet to Him a vast multitude of the people and of women were. And grieve<ekoptonto <2875> and wailed<eqrhnoun <2354> over Him.
28 Being-turned yet toward them, the Jesus said: "Daughters of-Jerusalem no be-lamenting/klaiete <2799> upon Me, moreover for yourselves be-lamenting, and upon the children of ye.
29 That behold! Are coming Days in which they shall be declaring 'happy are the barren-ones. and the wombs which not generate, and breasts which not suckle.

30 Then they shall be beginning to be saying to the Mountains: 'Be falling on us'!, and to the Hills 'Cover us'!
31 That if in this, the moist/ugrw <5200> wood/xulw <3586>, they are doing, in the dry/xhrw <3584> what may-be-becoming?
[Isaiah 4:4/Reve 18:19]

Revelation 6:

16 - and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 - “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
==========================
Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

70ad:
A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age
(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days)

Still future:
The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history
 
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mkgal1

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If I understand correctly, I believe BAB views Jerusalem as still future in Revelation,
while the Preterist view is that the great City is 1st century Jerusalem/70ad.

It is both past, and present, and future.

In Matthew chapter 23 Jesus described Jerusalem as the city that killed the prophets, during His time.
Agreed (that that is how Jesus described Jerusalem).

I can't agree that this is directed towards any other generation, though, but the one that Jesus was speaking directly to (that walked this earth along side Him).

In Revelation 6:10-11, there's a promise that He was going to avenge for their blood ("in a little while") that was spilled:


And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed. ~ Revelation 6:10-11
 
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BABerean2

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I can't agree that this is directed towards any other generation, though, but the one that Jesus was speaking directly to (that walked this earth along side Him).

In Revelation 6:10-11, there's a promise that He was going to avenge for their blood ("in a little while") that was spilled:

Did the following happen during 70 AD?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.



2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Did the following happen during 70 AD?

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

.
That happens after the Judgement of 70Ad Jerusalem and the 1000yr period as I explained in this other post:.......

Revelation 11:18 "2nd Woe passed, dead judged, reward the Saints"

Revelation 11:18
And the nations are angered<3710>,
and came Thy wrath<3709>, [JUDGMENT on 70Ad Jerusalem]


Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

70ad:
A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age
(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days)

AFTER THE 1000YR PERIOD.........

Still future:
The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history



There are no more Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees or a Temple around, so your argument falls apart....

Part of Revelation 11:18 has indeed happened as Judgement on 70AD Jerusalem as shown in Revelation 18..
[The final resurrection and Judgment happens after the 1000yr period.]

How do you view Luke 21:23, Luke 23:29 and Revelation 6:16

Revelation 11:18 "2nd Woe passed, dead judged, reward the Saints"

Revelation 11:18
And the nations are angered<3710>,
and came Thy wrath<3709>,


After the 1000yr period and Gog Magog war..........

And the time/season<2540> of the dead to be judged<2919>,
And to give the reward/wages<3408> to Thy bondslaves, the Prophets and to the Saints,
and to those fearing<5399> Thy name, to the small and to the great
And to destroy/ruin<1311> those destroying/ruining<1311> the land.”

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath<ὀργῆς<3709>?
Luke 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath<ὀργῆς<3709>?

Luke 21:23 and Luke 23:29 and Revelation 6:16 fulfilled in 70AD
I can practically harmonize ALL of Luke's Jerusalem/Temple discourse to Revelation....

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
Matt 24:19/Mar 13:17 Luk 21:23 "woe to those pregnant and nursing........

Luke 21:

22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath<3709> upon this people


Luke 23:
27 Followed yet to Him a vast multitude of the people and of women were. And grieve<ekoptonto <2875> and wailed<eqrhnoun <2354> over Him.
28 Being-turned yet toward them, the Jesus said: "Daughters of-Jerusalem no be-lamenting/klaiete <2799> upon Me, moreover for yourselves be-lamenting, and upon the children of ye.
29 That behold! Are coming Days in which they shall be declaring 'happy are the barren-ones. and the wombs which not generate, and breasts which not suckle.

30 Then they shall be beginning to be saying to the Mountains: 'Be falling on us'!, and to the Hills 'Cover us'!
31 That if in this, the moist/ugrw <5200> wood/xulw <3586>, they are doing, in the dry/xhrw <3584> what may-be-becoming?
[Isaiah 4:4/Reve 18:19]

Revelation 6:

16 - and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 - “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
==========================
Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

70ad:
A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age
(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days)

Still future:
The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history
 
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BABerean2

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Meeting this week in the modern "great city", with an animal sacrifice.


It is the globalist's plan to make this city the seat of global government.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.



Wake up Church!




.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Revelation 11:18
And the nations are angered<3710>,
and came Thy wrath<3709>,
[JUDGMENT/WRATH on 70Ad Jerusalem]

Some more verses concerning Revelation and 70AD.......
"Daughters of Jerusalem........weep for yourselves and your children"

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
Matt 24:19


Matthew 24:19
Woe yet to those pregnant,
and to those giving suck in those the days
Mark 13:17

Woe yet to those pregnant,
and to those giving suck in those the days
Luke 21:23
Woe yet to those pregnant, and to those giving suck in those days
for there shall be great distress on the land and wrath on this people;


Luke 23:
27 Followed yet to Him a vast multitude of the people and of women were. And grieve<2875> and wailed<2354> over Him.
28 Being-turned yet toward them Jesus said: "Daughters of-Jerusalem no be-lamenting<2799> upon Me, moreover for yourselves be-lamenting, and upon the children of ye.
29 That behold! Are coming Days in which they shall be declaring 'happy are the barren-ones, and the wombs which not generate, and breasts which not suckle.

30 Then they shall be beginning to be saying to the Mountains: 'Be falling on us'! and to the Hills 'Cover us'!
31 That if in this, the moist/ugrw <5200> wood/xulw <3586>, they are doing, in the dry/xhrw <3584> what may-be-becoming?
[Isaiah 4:4/Revelation 6:16Revelation 18:19]

Luke 23:30 "..Mountains fall on us, hills cover us.."

Revelation 6:16
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks,
“Fall on us and hide us from the Face of Him Who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lambkin!
17For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

===================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted


.........Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ;........

While famine continued thus to spread its destructive rage through the city, the Romans, after many ineffectual attempts, at length succeeded in demolishing part of the inner wall, possessed themselves of the great tower of Antonia, and advanced towards the Temple, which Titus, in a council of war had determined to preserve as an ornament to the empire,
=============================

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "measure of grain/wheat a denari and three measures of barley a denari, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

Revelation 9:6
And in those days the men shall be seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
and shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.

==========================
Hank Hanegraaff

"THE BIBLE ANSWER MAN" - AMILLENNIAL PARTIAL PRETERIST

"But let me just clarify something here. I have a lot of sympathy for the partial preterist point of view. I simply do not call myself a partial preterist because I don't agree with everything that the partial preterists say.
I think that in some cases the partial preterists make the same mistake that the futurist does, only in reverse. The futurist is in essence reading the Bible with one hand and the newspaper with the other, and the partial preterist oftentimes is trying to correlate events in history with what they read in the book of Revelation - oftentimes when that particular allusion in Revelation is symbolically intended as opposed to having some literal correspondence in first century history. "Now that may be a minor point of difference, but it is an important point from my perspective.
Not only that, there are a lot of things that a partial preterist, from my perspective, makes an either/or proposition that I'm not comfortable making an either/or proposition." 11/18/4 - Bible Answer Man show...............

The Early Date of Revelation   |  Study Archive

(On the Early Date of Revelation)
"More and more, people who have embraced the Futurist paradigm, when they recognize.. that the book of Revelation was not written in the mid-nineties, but rather was written in the mid-sixties, ..they have a different view of what the book of Revelation is actually dealing with in terms of substance." (Voice of Reason, 11/21)
 
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BABerean2

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Revelation 11:18
And the nations are angered<3710>,
and came Thy wrath<3709>,
[JUDGMENT/WRATH on 70Ad Jerusalem]

Some more verses concerning Revelation and 70AD.......
"Daughters of Jerusalem........weep for yourselves and your children"

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
Matt 24:19


Matthew 24:19
Woe yet to those pregnant,
and to those giving suck in those the days
Mark 13:17

Woe yet to those pregnant,
and to those giving suck in those the days
Luke 21:23
Woe yet to those pregnant, and to those giving suck in those days
for there shall be great distress on the land and wrath on this people;


Luke 23:
27 Followed yet to Him a vast multitude of the people and of women were. And grieve<2875> and wailed<2354> over Him.
28 Being-turned yet toward them Jesus said: "Daughters of-Jerusalem no be-lamenting<2799> upon Me, moreover for yourselves be-lamenting, and upon the children of ye.
29 That behold! Are coming Days in which they shall be declaring 'happy are the barren-ones, and the wombs which not generate, and breasts which not suckle.

30 Then they shall be beginning to be saying to the Mountains: 'Be falling on us'! and to the Hills 'Cover us'!
31 That if in this, the moist/ugrw <5200> wood/xulw <3586>, they are doing, in the dry/xhrw <3584> what may-be-becoming?
[Isaiah 4:4/Revelation 6:16Revelation 18:19]

Luke 23:30 "..Mountains fall on us, hills cover us.."

Revelation 6:16
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks,
“Fall on us and hide us from the Face of Him Who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lambkin!
17For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

===================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted


.........Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ;........

While famine continued thus to spread its destructive rage through the city, the Romans, after many ineffectual attempts, at length succeeded in demolishing part of the inner wall, possessed themselves of the great tower of Antonia, and advanced towards the Temple, which Titus, in a council of war had determined to preserve as an ornament to the empire,
=============================

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "measure of grain/wheat a denari and three measures of barley a denari, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

Revelation 9:6
And in those days the men shall be seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
and shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.

==========================
Hank Hanegraaff

"THE BIBLE ANSWER MAN" - AMILLENNIAL PARTIAL PRETERIST

"But let me just clarify something here. I have a lot of sympathy for the partial preterist point of view. I simply do not call myself a partial preterist because I don't agree with everything that the partial preterists say.
I think that in some cases the partial preterists make the same mistake that the futurist does, only in reverse. The futurist is in essence reading the Bible with one hand and the newspaper with the other, and the partial preterist oftentimes is trying to correlate events in history with what they read in the book of Revelation - oftentimes when that particular allusion in Revelation is symbolically intended as opposed to having some literal correspondence in first century history. "Now that may be a minor point of difference, but it is an important point from my perspective.
Not only that, there are a lot of things that a partial preterist, from my perspective, makes an either/or proposition that I'm not comfortable making an either/or proposition." 11/18/4 - Bible Answer Man show...............

The Early Date of Revelation | Study Archive

(On the Early Date of Revelation)
"More and more, people who have embraced the Futurist paradigm, when they recognize.. that the book of Revelation was not written in the mid-nineties, but rather was written in the mid-sixties, ..they have a different view of what the book of Revelation is actually dealing with in terms of substance." (Voice of Reason, 11/21)


You may have noticed that the events happening this week in modern Jerusalem are not happening during 70 AD.

Do you have any comments about the meeting this week?


.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Meeting this week in the modern "great city", with an animal sacrifice.


It is the globalist's plan to make this city the seat of global government.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.



Wake up Church!




.
I watched most of the video and can tell you that this guy is wrong on many fronts. There is a verse on not being led into every wind of doctrine and this guy is creating a wind of doctrine and seems to have many other messages that pound the same scenario. If you went through this type of training you are indoctrinated in the philosophy and like a trial where they only let one side present their case you would come to the same conclusions. Read Ezekiel 36 for example it speaks to the mountains of Israel noting God brought the people back for His own sake and promises to give them a new heart in the day He removes the reproach from the nations. God notes this people brought back profaned His name in all the nations where they were scattered and that they will know He is the LORD in that day. This is future. jer 3 Speaks of this day as well.
14 “Return, O backsliding children,” says the LORD; “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion. 15 And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16 “Then it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days,” says the LORD, “that they will say no more, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.
17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
18 “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.

If you read this and try to imagine it coming to pass it says they will no more follow the dictates of their evil hearts. Ezekiel 36 says God give the people He gathers back a new heart and that He will remove the reproach Israel has born as a nation. This makes sense if the prophecies are future. Furthermore Jesus is promised by the Holy Spirit to save Israel from its enemies and from the time they are saved they will worship and serve Him without fear all the days of their lives.
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.
When the LORD comes in Zech 14 he is saving Jerusalem and there is a continuation of life on earth after He comes. This chapter is key as the specifics are this is a single day when it is light at night and dark in the day; where Jerusalem is being overrun when the LORD comes and graphically melts the enemies. This day the LORD is king over all the earth the Mt of Olive splits in two and a new river flows years round and new valleys are formed with specific boundaries. It says the nations which are left must come and keep the feast of tabernacles or they will get no rain. This singles out Egypt for this so for sure in the millennium Egypt will be in a drought and this passages will be shown them in the millennium.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Meeting this week in the modern "great city", with an animal sacrifice.
It is the globalist's plan to make this city the seat of global government.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Wake up Church!


.
LittleLambofJesus said:
Revelation 11:18
And the nations are angered<3710>,
and came Thy wrath<3709>, [JUDGMENT/WRATH on 70Ad Jerusalem]
You may have noticed that the events happening this week in modern Jerusalem are not happening during 70 AD.
Do you have any comments about the meeting this week?

.
Nothing to do with any Bible prophecy.....much like 1948 and 1967 not having anything to do with fulfilling Bible prophecy.........except of course how the Dispies, Futurists and Zionist view it.
All it does is promote more tourism and money for the secular country of Israel.

Did the event of 1948 Israel fulfill any Bible prophecy?

nolidad said:
Lots of answers already so I will just add my training in this and what I teach based on Scripture.
I am convinced we are in the last days because of one major event--May 14, 1948!
That was when Israel was rebirthed as a nation and it was prophesied it would happen in the end times!
June of 1967 added more evidence to this when Israel regained control of their capital city Jerusalem.
Everything else including nations against nation and kingdom ....(WW 1 and WW2 ) are labor pains!
1967 six day war in Israel. Jerusalem back in hands of the Jews

Did the 6 days war of 1967 Israel fulfill any Bible prophecies?
Edit
  1. Yes
    2 vote(s)
    28.6%
  2. *
    No
    4 vote(s)
    57.1%
  3. I am unsure
    1 vote(s)
    14.3%
  4. Other
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
 
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BABerean2

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Nothing to do with any Bible prophecy.....much like 1948 and 1967 not having anything to do with fulfilling Bible prophecy.........except of course how the Dispies, Futurists and Zionist view it.
All it does is promote more tourism and money for the secular country of Israel.


If you have been ignoring the globalists who are planning a world government with its capitol located in modern Jerusalem, throw away all of your 70 AD books and watch the video below.




The Dispensational Futurists tell us we do not need to worry about world government, because the Church will be removed to heaven before it happens, and many of the Preterists tell us all of the Book of Revelation was fulfilled during 70 AD.

Both have left the modern Church totally unprepared for the plans of those found in the video above.

.
 
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BABerean2

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I watched most of the video and can tell you that this guy is wrong on many fronts.


Pastor Chuck Baldwin is a former Dispensationalist who had to finally abandon the doctrine, because it did not agree with his Bible.

He is one of the few pastors willing to preach the ugly truth, that most modern Christians do not want to hear.


.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Pastor Chuck Baldwin is a former Dispensationalist who had to finally abandon the doctrine, because it did not agree with his Bible.

He is one of the few pastors willing to preach the ugly truth, that most modern Christians do not want to hear.


.
you are trapped in your own maze as I can point to people have switched from your camp as well and that is proof of nothing. I pointed out some scriptures that show that Israel does indeed have a destiny. You know the 3rd temple is coming on the near horizon and the futurist view that the abomination of desolation is still to come kind of gets support by this. The book of Hosea lists the return of the kingdom and associates it with the return of the sacrifices after many days without there being one.

4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

The pastor uses covenant theology which has a real truth that there is no more sin sacrifice and dismisses the prophetic significance of the return of the sacrifice. It is decreed to happen and is coming as that is how the man of sin in 2 Thess is revealed who is destroyed by the 2nd coming of Jesus.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[fn] who now restrains will do so until He[fn] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Now futurist see this guy as the same as the beast in Rev 13 who also is destroyed at the coming of the LORD. Funny how Rev 13 gives that beast power for exactly 42 months to reign and persecute before he is toast. You know just like if in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel he puts and end to the sacrifices that Hosea said was the sign to watch for for the return of the kingdom after many days. Well no sacrifice since 70 Ad I think would qulaify as many days. And Hosea just throws in David will be raised up too which is the 3rd place in the OT that David is mentioned as being raised.
 
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BABerean2

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you are trapped in your own maze as I can point to people have switched from your camp as well and that is proof of nothing. I pointed out some scriptures that show that Israel does indeed have a destiny. You know the 3rd temple is coming on the near horizon and the futurist view that the abomination of desolation is still to come kind of gets support by this. The book of Hosea lists the return of the kingdom and associates it with the return of the sacrifices after many days without there being one.

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." (From the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." (From the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.
I am fairly certain that most all Christians and Jews are aware of Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8, unless they have been living in a cave or never read the Bible.....
Not sure why you keep bringing up those passages all the time......fulfilled in the 1st century..........

New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 Hebrew 8
Jan 3, 2009 LLoJ

3772 karath
a primitive root;
to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication, to destroy or consume; specifically, to covenant (i.e. make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces):--be chewed, be con-(feder-)ate, covenant, cut (down, off), destroy, fail, feller, be freed, hew (down), make a league ((covenant)), X lose, perish, X utterly, X want.

4931 sunteleo
from 4862 and 5055;
to complete entirely; generally, to execute (literally or figuratively):--end, finish, fulfil, make.

Jeremiah 31:
31 "Behold! days are coming", a declaration of Yahweh,
"and I Cut<3772> a New Covenant with the house of Yisra'el and with the house of Y@huwdah
32 not according to the Covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh.
33 That this the Covenant which I shall Cut with House of Yisra'el after those days" declaration of Yahweh.
"I give My Law within them and on their heart I shall write it,
and I become to them for an Elohim, and they shall become to Me for a people."

Hebrews 8:
8 'For faulting to them He is saying 'behold! days are coming', is saying LORD,
and I shall be consummating/suntelesw<4931> upon the House of Israel and upon the House of Judah a New Covenant,
9 Not according as the Covenant which I make to their fathers,
in day of taking of Me their hand, to be leading them out of land of Egypt,
that they not remain in My Covenant, and I, I un-care of them', is saying LORD.
10 'That this the Covenant which I shall be Covenanting to the House of Israel after those days, is saying LORD.
Giving My laws into their minds and upon their hearts I shall be engraving them.
And I shall to them into a God, and they shall be to Me into a People.'
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." (From the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


.
you cut and paste just like Barean one this is why your pastor is wrong about Israel and he is starting off with a very true statement that their is no more offering for sin. This true statement can be true along with the idea that the sacrifice returns. Because the sacrifice that returns is the stage for the abomination of desolation and is not an acceptable sin offering.
This is where we can agree and I note that no one was ever saved by an animal sacrifice.
The Bible states Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. So Jesus speaks about Lazarus and the rich man and they are both in the grave along with Abraham.When Jesus died he descended into the earth and led those righteous through faith out after he redeemed them through the blood of the new covenant including Abraham. In Rev 5 we see the redeemed singing to Jesus as he was declared worthy to take the scrolls and open the seals. They sing that He is worthy....and that He has redeemed them by His blood out of every tribe tongue kindred and nation and that they shall rule with Him upon the earth.
So I do understand the new covenant and when you go back to Jer 31 we see two things that are noteworthy. The text says the covenant is replacing the one made when they were taken out of Egypt. It is addressed to the houses of Israel and immediately after promising the new covenant we see this statement placed here by no accident.
35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the LORD:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.
38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

Now if you take the time to think this over God and Jesus both knew Jerusalem would be destroyed and Israel scattered shortly after the new covenant was instituted then the LORD makes two parallel statements about Israel not ceasing to be a nation in God's eyes. The 2nd time the LORD says He will not cast them off for all they have done. And then it jumps to a time the gates in Jerusalem that is specific gates and a valley full of dead bodies that from that time on will be holy to the LORD and not thrown does anymore. So we are given the holy spirit and have Gods laws in our hearts and minds and are in the new covenant. Israel will be grafted back in as Jesus comes as seen in Zech 14 with the saints which will include David and those mentioned in Rev 5 and also those beheaded for refusing the mark who also claim they will rule with Him upon the earth. This is when the LORD is king over all the earth it does not happen until the day the LORD save Jerusalem and Israel. This is repeated in Dan 7 and in Rev. It says in that day they will say the LORD is one. This is Israel confessing Jesus is LORD; this is like Joseph revelaing himself to his brothers and the weeping and Joy of this moment is recorded in Isaiah 61 which speaks of the day of vengeance of the LORD and it is a great accomplishment out of it that is Zion specific and notes distinction between Jew and Gentile after that.
In Luke 1 i posted the prophecy of Jesus come to save Israel from their enemies and to begin a time where they are holy and secure and serving the LORD. This is the 1000 years that Satan in bound nad Jesus takes the throne of David and it is established. The kingdom last forever and when Satan is loosed he gathers an army and surrounds the holy city and fire comes down from heaven and destroys him then the great white throne judgment. The end at armageddon is future then 1000 years later is this last rebellion. You know I have pieced all my scriptures together that are congruent and understood by believing they mean what they say. I maintain you are led into your wind of doctrine and perhaps should consider that the LORD is actually going to keep His word down to the last detail.
 
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BABerean2

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you cut and paste just like Barean one this is why your pastor is wrong about Israel and he is starting off with a very true statement that their is no more offering for sin. This true statement can be true along with the idea that the sacrifice returns. Because the sacrifice that returns is the stage for the abomination of desolation and is not an acceptable sin offering.
This is where we can agree and I note that no one was ever saved by an animal sacrifice.
The Bible states Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. So Jesus speaks about Lazarus and the rich man and they are both in the grave along with Abraham.When Jesus died he descended into the earth and led those righteous through faith out after he redeemed them through the blood of the new covenant including Abraham. In Rev 5 we see the redeemed singing to Jesus as he was declared worthy to take the scrolls and open the seals. They sing that He is worthy....and that He has redeemed them by His blood out of every tribe tongue kindred and nation and that they shall rule with Him upon the earth.
So I do understand the new covenant and when you go back to Jer 31 we see two things that are noteworthy. The text says the covenant is replacing the one made when they were taken out of Egypt. It is addressed to the houses of Israel and immediately after promising the new covenant we see this statement placed here by no accident.
35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the LORD:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.
38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

Now if you take the time to think this over God and Jesus both knew Jerusalem would be destroyed and Israel scattered shortly after the new covenant was instituted then the LORD makes two parallel statements about Israel not ceasing to be a nation in God's eyes. The 2nd time the LORD says He will not cast them off for all they have done. And then it jumps to a time the gates in Jerusalem that is specific gates and a valley full of dead bodies that from that time on will be holy to the LORD and not thrown does anymore. So we are given the holy spirit and have Gods laws in our hearts and minds and are in the new covenant. Israel will be grafted back in as Jesus comes as seen in Zech 14 with the saints which will include David and those mentioned in Rev 5 and also those beheaded for refusing the mark who also claim they will rule with Him upon the earth. This is when the LORD is king over all the earth it does not happen until the day the LORD save Jerusalem and Israel. This is repeated in Dan 7 and in Rev. It says in that day they will say the LORD is one. This is Israel confessing Jesus is LORD; this is like Joseph revelaing himself to his brothers and the weeping and Joy of this moment is recorded in Isaiah 61 which speaks of the day of vengeance of the LORD and it is a great accomplishment out of it that is Zion specific and notes distinction between Jew and Gentile after that.
In Luke 1 i posted the prophecy of Jesus come to save Israel from their enemies and to begin a time where they are holy and secure and serving the LORD. This is the 1000 years that Satan in bound nad Jesus takes the throne of David and it is established. The kingdom last forever and when Satan is loosed he gathers an army and surrounds the holy city and fire comes down from heaven and destroys him then the great white throne judgment. The end at armageddon is future then 1000 years later is this last rebellion. You know I have pieced all my scriptures together that are congruent and understood by believing they mean what they say. I maintain you are led into your wind of doctrine and perhaps should consider that the LORD is actually going to keep His word down to the last detail.

You say you understand the New Covenant.
A person cannot understand the New Covenant and also hold onto the Two Peoples of God doctrine.
Why?
Because the New Covenant was made with Israel, and Judah during the first century, as revealed by the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6-11, and Hebrews 10:16-18.


On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel". Who was Peter talking to on the day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant?


Paul still called himself an "Israelite", even after his conversion in Romans 11:1-5.


James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes" who were his "brethren" in the "faith". Who was James talking to?


The Dispensationalist's claim that the Church and Israel are not connected, fall apart in the New Covenant scriptures.

Diehard Dispensationalists who really understand the New Covenant avoid the New Covenant scriptures like the plague, because they understand the fact that the New Covenant kills their doctrine. A person who understands the New Covenant cannot keep Israel and the Church separated.


As for the "abomination of desolation" in Matthew 24:15, the verses below prove it to be a past event.



Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.



The Jews of Jesus time celebrated the re-dedication of the temple every year during the festival of Hanukkah.
They would have understood the reference to the abomination of the temple during the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, in the years 167 BC.
Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews, and stopped the animal sacrifices.
The same thing would happen during 70 AD.

Luke's Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.

We have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in both Gospels, and that is what the first century Christians did to avoid the siege of Jerusalem during 70 AD.

This same exact warning to flee in both Gospels prove that Matthew 24:15-16, and Luke 21:20-21, are parallel accounts of what happened during 70 AD. Dispensational Futurists must ignore this fact to make their doctrine work.

.
 
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BABerean2

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I am fairly certain that most all Christians and Jews are aware of Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8, unless they have been living in a cave or never read the Bible.....
Not sure why you keep bringing up those passages all the time......fulfilled in the 1st century..........

My wife and I once attended a conservative Bible church which taught Dispensational Theology. During the time we were there, we never heard a sermon, or a Sunday-School lesson on the New Covenant.
Why? Because an understanding of the New Covenant destroys the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology.

I have never seen a sermon on Christian television about the New Covenant. Why not?

Go out and ask modern Christians about the New Covenant and many times all you will get back is a blank stare.

I did not completely understand the connection between the Old Testament and the New Testament, until I understood the New Covenant.

The "suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, and the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel 9, prove that the baby born in a manger is the Messiah promised in the Hebrew scriptures.

I will continue to bring up the New Covenant until my last breath, because it unites all denominations into one Church.
Paul warned against division in 1 Corinthians chapter 1.
The New Testament is a group of 27 books about the New Covenant fulfilled by Christ's blood at Calvary.

Jesus Christ is the New Covenant.


We could ask you why you keep bringing up 70 AD.
Is 70 AD something that unites all of the denominations into one Church?


The video below proves that all Jews do not know about the New Covenant.



.
 
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