We Sure Are Good At Messing Up The Trinity

SPF · Sep 24, 2019

I couldn't help but notice that a certain poster in the recently closed thread concerning OSAS, made this comment that nobody else seemed to notice:

"Technically, Jesus was not God ... not in the same league as Father God
because He was part human ... Jesus was the God-man.
That's why jesus said His Father was greater than He was!"

What do you think of this quote? Is it accurate? Is it heresy?

Ken Rank · Sep 24, 2019

SPF said:
I couldn't help but notice that a certain poster in the recently closed thread concerning OSAS, made this comment that nobody else seemed to notice:

"Technically, Jesus was not God ... not in the same league as Father God
because He was part human ... Jesus was the God-man.
That's why jesus said His Father was greater than He was!"

What do you think of this quote? Is it accurate? Is it heresy?

Jesus was God in the flesh, I can give two hundred verses (thereabouts) to prove it. I can even use science to show where it has to be God. But... when He walked as a man He might have been God, but He was also walking as the model He expects us to follow. Thus, as a man, He pointed us to the Spirit, to the Father. The Father or the Spirit is greater because Jesus "humbled himself in fashion as a man" and "was made lower than the angels for the suffering of death." He "lowered" Himself to save us... and while He did, He pointed us to the Higher, the Father.

Lazarus Short · Sep 24, 2019

Everybody has and "angle" on Jesus the Christ, but I am comfortable with the doctrine of Fully God and Fully Man. As one of the disciples exclaimed, "My Lord (man) and my God (God)."

Albion · Sep 24, 2019

SPF said:
"Technically, Jesus was not God ... not in the same league as Father God
because He was part human ... Jesus was the God-man.
That's why jesus said His Father was greater than He was!"
What do you think of this quote? Is it accurate? Is it heresy?

That's the ancient belief called the Monophysite heresy. But to the extent that no one picked up on the post, I would guess that some "cans of worms" just aren't worth opening in the middle of a thread about something else.

nonaeroterraqueous · Sep 24, 2019

"Technically, Jesus was not God ...

There's no such thing as technically from God's perspective, being absolute. A thing either is or isn't true. Technical details are truths too fine for consideration by a finite being. No truth is ever too fine for a perfect God.

not in the same league as Father God

He had to be in the same league, or he would have been insufficient for salvation.

because He was part human ...

He wasn't part-human. He was all-human and all-God.

That's why jesus said His Father was greater than He was!"

The Father is greater than Jesus in the sense that infinity plus one is greater than infinity. In another sense, the difference is inconsequential to the point of nonexistence. From the divine angle, both were equal, and Christ could rule at the right hand of the Father. From the mortal perspective the Father is greater.

Kate30 · Sep 24, 2019

It’s a verse the Jehovah witnesses like to use very much. God the Son did give all power and authority to God the Father while taking on the role of a servant to fulfil redemption for us while here apon earth. CHrist said the Father is greater than I. In authority yes. The Father is better than I. No. Our prime minister or your president is in greater authority than you or me . But is he better than me. No. Being in greater authority does not make you more superior. That is where the misunderstanding occurs I think.

thecolorsblend · Sep 24, 2019

SPF said:
I couldn't help but notice that a certain poster in the recently closed thread concerning OSAS, made this comment that nobody else seemed to notice:

"Technically, Jesus was not God ... not in the same league as Father God
because He was part human ... Jesus was the God-man.
That's why jesus said His Father was greater than He was!"

What do you think of this quote? Is it accurate? Is it heresy?

We’re good at messing up the Trinity because it’s pretty complicated theology. I doubt anything more than 10% of CF members could explain the Trinity in detail without accidentally committing heresy.

I doubt I’m part of that illustrious 10%.

Kate30 · Sep 24, 2019

thecolorsblend said:
We’re good at messing up the Trinity because it’s pretty complicated theology. I doubt anything more than 10% of CF members could explain the Trinity in detail without accidentally committing heresy.

I doubt I’m part of that illustrious 10%.

Colourblend I don’t think any of us can fully comprehend the trinity. And there is nothing wrong with that. There are many illustrations given such as a multi coloured rainbow but nothing ever completely answers the question satisfactorily that way. All we need to know is what is clearly defined in scripture and that it is there. You get on a plane but one does not really know how it works but it does . I turn on a light I don’t fully understand how electricity becomes light but I know that it works. Just because we cannot understand something completely does not mean that it’s not true.

com7fy8 · Sep 24, 2019

SPF said:
What do you think of this quote? Is it accurate? Is it heresy?

Even while God Himself is in us, therefore inside our bodies . . . still He is God. So, like this, Jesus was just as much God in His flesh and blood body, as He is now.

Because, among other things, He had His body but He was not that body.

Our bodies are not what decide what our identity is. But there are people who suppose what is true about their bodies is what decides what is their identity; so I see how someone like this might suppose that Christ's identity was decided by Him having a human body.

But . . . I would not say that is "heresy", but mixed-up. My opinion is that a heresy has to do with committing oneself to someone who is not approved by God. It is not only about wrong ideas, but how a person is committing to and joining with a wrong person.

Albion · Sep 24, 2019

com7fy8 said:
But . . . I would not say that is "heresy", but mixed-up. My opinion is that a heresy has to do with committing oneself to someone who is not approved by God. It is not only about wrong ideas, but how a person is committing to and joining with a wrong person.

To be a heretic means to subscribe to an erroneous religious belief that deals with a significant issue.

To believe, for example, that baptism by immersion is a more symbolic approach than baptism by pouring wouldn't be heretical, but believing that Jesus was not God but only an enlightened human who taught about God would be heretical.

So in the case of someone who says the Son of God is a unique being, half human and half divine, that would obviously be heretical since it deals with the identity of the Savior.

SPF · Sep 24, 2019

Kevin DeYoung wrote a very good (and short) article on the Trinity back in 2011 which can be found here. I think he did a particularly good job. here are some snippets:

The doctrine of the Trinity can be summarized in seven statements:

(1) There is only one God.
(2) The Father is God.
(3) The Son is God.
(4) The Holy Spirit is God.
(5) The Father is not the Son.
(6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit.
(7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

All of the creedal formulations and theological jargon and philosophical apologetics have to do with safeguarding each one of these statements and doing so without denying any of the other six. When the ancient creeds employ extra-biblical terminology and demand careful theological nuance they do so not to clear up what the Bible leaves cloudy, but to defend, define, and delimit essential biblical propositions.

The Athanasian Creed puts it this way: “Now this is the catholic faith: That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons, nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit, still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.”

Sometimes it’s easier to understand what we believe by stating what we don’t believe.

Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects monarchianism which believes in only one person (mono) and maintains that the Son and the Spirit subsists in the divine essence as impersonal attributes not distinct and divine Persons.
Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects modalism which believes that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different names for the same God acting in different roles or manifestations (like the well-intentioned but misguided “water, vapor, ice” analogy).
Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects Arianism which denies the full deity of Christ.
And finally, orthodox Trinitarianism rejects all forms of tri-theism, which teach that the three members of the Godhead are, to quote a leading Mormon apologist, “three distinct Beings, three separate Gods.”

Der Alte · Sep 24, 2019

Ken Rank said:
begin

<KR>Jesus was God in the flesh, I can give two hundred verses (thereabouts) to prove it. I can even use science to show where it has to be God. But... when He walked as a man He might have been God, but He was also walking as the model He expects us to follow. Thus, as a man, He pointed us to the Spirit, to the Father. The Father or the Spirit is greater because Jesus "humbled himself in fashion as a man" and "was made lower than the angels for the suffering of death." He "lowered" Himself to save us... and while He did, He pointed us to the Higher, the Father.<KR>

end

If Jesus was only man He could not have redeemed mankind.

Jewish Publication Society Psalms 49:7-9
(7) (49:8) No man can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him -
(8) (49:9) For too costly is the redemption of their soul, and must be let alone for ever -
(9) (49:10) That he should still live alway, that he should not see the pit.

Lazarus Short · Sep 24, 2019

SPF said:
Kevin DeYoung wrote a very good (and short) article on the Trinity back in 2011 which can be found here. I think he did a particularly good job. here are some snippets:

The doctrine of the Trinity can be summarized in seven statements:

(1) There is only one God.
(2) The Father is God.
(3) The Son is God.
(4) The Holy Spirit is God.
(5) The Father is not the Son.
(6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit.
(7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

All of the creedal formulations and theological jargon and philosophical apologetics have to do with safeguarding each one of these statements and doing so without denying any of the other six. When the ancient creeds employ extra-biblical terminology and demand careful theological nuance they do so not to clear up what the Bible leaves cloudy, but to defend, define, and delimit essential biblical propositions.

The Athanasian Creed puts it this way: “Now this is the catholic faith: That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons, nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit, still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.”

Sometimes it’s easier to understand what we believe by stating what we don’t believe.

Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects monarchianism which believes in only one person (mono) and maintains that the Son and the Spirit subsists in the divine essence as impersonal attributes not distinct and divine Persons.

Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects modalism which believes that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different names for the same God acting in different roles or manifestations (like the well-intentioned but misguided “water, vapor, ice” analogy).

Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects Arianism which denies the full deity of Christ.

And finally, orthodox Trinitarianism rejects all forms of tri-theism, which teach that the three members of the Godhead are, to quote a leading Mormon apologist, “three distinct Beings, three separate Gods.”

Given what you have posted about what Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects, is this idea too far out:

We know that there are seven Spirits of God.

We know that there is God the Father.

We know that there is God the Son.

So...

Father + Son + Seven Spirits = Nine. A Trinity of Trinities.

Comments?

Kate30 · Sep 24, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
Given what you have posted about what Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects, is this idea too far out:

We know that there are seven Spirits of God.

We know that there is God the Father.

We know that there is God the Son.

So...

Father + Son + Seven Spirits = Nine. A Trinity of Trinities.

Comments?

The Othodox church believes in 7 extra spirits as part of the trinity . I didn’t know that. From what othodox creed do you quote ?

SPF · Sep 24, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
We know that there are seven Spirits of God.

I think you need to clarify what you believe the seven Spirits of God actually are.

Lazarus Short · Sep 24, 2019

I was not quoting a creed. We know from the Revelation that there are Seven Spirits of God, but who/what are they? We have strong hints in Isaiah 11:2, and in Revelation 1:4, 3:1, 4:5 and 5:6.

I come up with this:

Spirit of Life (from Genesis)

Spirit of Wisdom

Spirit of Understanding

Spirit of Counsel

Spirit of Strength

Spirit of Knowledge

Spirit of the Fear of the Lord.

SPF · Sep 24, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
I was not quoting a creed. We know from the Revelation that there are Seven Spirits of God, but who/what are they? We have strong hints in Isaiah 11:2, and in Revelation 1:4, 3:1, 4:5 and 5:6.

I come up with this:

Spirit of Life (from Genesis)

Spirit of Wisdom

Spirit of Understanding

Spirit of Counsel

Spirit of Strength

Spirit of Knowledge

Spirit of the Fear of the Lord.

You're still not clearly stating what you believe them to be. Try comparing what you believe the "Spirit of Strength" to be in comparison to God the Father. Do you believe the Spirit of Strength to be the same in essence to God the Father? Are you suggesting that everything the Church has always believed about God being Trinity is actually wrong and that God is actually One in Essence and 9 in person?

Lazarus Short · Sep 24, 2019

SPF, it is difficult enough to wrap my head around the Trinity at all, and the Bible gives us no further details of the various Spirits. The Revelation states there are Seven, and that's as far as I care to go, besides what Genesis and Isaiah say, which isn't much.

SPF · Sep 24, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
SPF, it is difficult enough to wrap my head around the Trinity at all, and the Bible gives us no further details of the various Spirits. The Revelation states there are Seven, and that's as far as I care to go, besides what Genesis and Isaiah say, which isn't much.

How do you compare the seven Spirits to all the passages about The Holy Spirit?

Act 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Act 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?

And what of I Corinthians 12 in which it talks about the Holy Spirit being the one that gives gifts to Believers.

How do you incorporate the seven spirits of God which are barely referenced in the Bible in relation to the Holy Spirit, which is literally God.

I'll help you - whatever the seven spirits of God are, they are not God the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. They are not God.

Der Alte · Sep 24, 2019

SPF said:
You're still not clearly stating what you believe them to be. Try comparing what you believe the "Spirit of Strength" to be in comparison to God the Father. Do you believe the Spirit of Strength to be the same in essence to God the Father? Are you suggesting that everything the Church has always believed about God being Trinity is actually wrong and that God is actually One in Essence and 9 in person?

Other than the brief mentions of the 7 spirits, listed above, we are not told anything further about those spirits.
I believe that if God wanted us to concern ourselves about the 7 spirits He would have provided more information. Having said that I choose not to worry about the 7 spirits.

We Sure Are Good At Messing Up The Trinity

The description of Jesus in the OP post is:

Heresy

Sloppy wording, but not heresy

Spot On

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